Discipline: A "What If?"

[Baron Saturday]

There is likely some obvious reason that this is a terrible idea, and it may not even be possible to code, but it's been a helluva week so I'm outsourcing my critical thinking to the forums.

What if discipline benefited from Str OR Dex, whichever is higher?

[AstralUniverse]

Under that logic, we should also open the Discipline skill to all dex focused classes right?

Imo, discipline via str and via dex are two different skills, realistically.

[three wolf moon]

You already get dex mod to AC, whereas str does not. Exchanging disc for AC is just the price you agree to pay.

It's already possible to get a very comfortable amount of disc on a dexer, so it's unneeded as well as a terrible idea.

[Might-N-Magic]

Discipline is just a stand-in for the opposition check to combat maneuvers like Knockdown (Trip), Disarm, etc. That check in PnP actually is just a STR or DEX (whichever is higher) check, so this makes sense.

In a perfect world, Bioware would have realized persistent worlds and competitive play would be a thing and made their game to be for thus and not have made decisions for single player/co-op play and nuked Discipline altogether and used the systems in the PHB.

[Nobs]

Under that logic, we should also open the Discipline skill to all dex focused classes right?

Imo, discipline via str and via dex are two different skills, realistically.

dex to damage when?

[AstralUniverse]

Discipline is just a stand-in for the opposition check to combat maneuvers like Knockdown (Trip), Disarm, etc. That check in PnP actually is just a STR or DEX (whichever is higher) check, so this makes sense.

In a perfect world, Bioware would have realized persistent worlds and competitive play would be a thing and made their game to be for thus and not have made decisions for single player/co-op play and nuked Discipline altogether and used the systems in the PHB.

I dont actually remember but wasnt it like Lore, in that you can pick Discipline few times to represent more than one type of discipline as separate skills? I really CANT see how discipline through dex and through str are the same skill. Dodging and relaying on speed makes you pick different combat stances and postures than if you're trained to out-muscle your enemy.

EDIT: To be clear. Dodging and maneuvers happen BEFORE you got hit, that is why dex is added to your ac and str isnt. After you've been hit, with your dex included in that check, the only thing that matters now is your muscle.

[Baron Saturday]

I dont actually remember but wasnt it like Lore, in that you can pick Discipline few times to represent more than one type of discipline as separate skills? I really CANT see how discipline through dex and through str are the same skill. Dodging and relaying on speed makes you pick different combat stances and postures than if you're trained to out-muscle your enemy.

Nope, the discipline skill is unique to NWN. In 3.5 PnP, disarm is opposed attack rolls. Trip, the closest equivalent to KD, is Str v Str OR Dex, whichever is higher.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

STR based characters are already in a bad place at the moment from what I can see. Almost every melee build is DEX based because it can get higher AC along with a bunch of other nice cookies. Plus they are easier and cheaper to gear, and their gear gets more bonuses. If you go STR based you're probably doing it for the carry weight at this point.

Edit: Point is, I think we should leave Disc for STR.

[AstralUniverse]

I dont actually remember but wasnt it like Lore, in that you can pick Discipline few times to represent more than one type of discipline as separate skills? I really CANT see how discipline through dex and through str are the same skill. Dodging and relaying on speed makes you pick different combat stances and postures than if you're trained to out-muscle your enemy.

Nope, the discipline skill is unique to NWN. In 3.5 PnP, disarm is opposed attack rolls. Trip, the closest equivalent to KD, is Str v Str OR Dex, whichever is higher.

Nwn is not 3.5. It wants to be like it but it's like a 3.5 simplified greatly. If you start changing things to make the game more true to 3.5 and you, along the way, change something as core as Discipline in the game's balance, you will be dragged into changing pretty much everything else to match. This is not realistic. There's no need to buff Dexterity like that. Dexterity already gives, ac, ab, reflex, touch-ac and more.

On top of that, there's no thematic justification for this suggestion. Dexterity is your agility and speed. Discipline check happens after you've FAILED to dodge the attack at your ab vs ac roll. Your agility and speed are now irrelevant and the discipline is meant to check your muscle and size (weight, indirectly) and physical STRENGTH.

So I see no reason to go for it, and plenty of reasons not to.

[Skibbles]

I don't really have a horse in this race but along the vein of Astral's good logic: maybe tie it only to characters that have defensive roll?

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Speaking as a Dex melee player, Dex melee does not need any kind of buff right now. If anything needs buffed it is STR Melee. They need better armor and better gear. Adamantine full plate is a bad joke.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Personally, I think if you could code the knockdown/disarm checks to work like PnP based off of AB/Str/Dex, that it would be amazing.

To everyone reflexively saying Dex doesn't need any more buffs, allow me to point out that not requiring discipline is in fact a bigger buff to a STR-type meleer, who probably doesn't have anywhere near as many skill points and benefits far more from not having to spend any of them on a completely made up skill to do something they were already good at doing.

In essence, it's a QoL improvement across the board that gives everyone a tiny bit more skill diversity. I don't understand what the objection is at all, and I play casters, who 'suffer' the most from this.

[AstralUniverse]

To everyone reflexively saying Dex doesn't need any more buffs, allow me to point out that not requiring discipline is in fact a bigger buff to a STR-type meleer, who probably doesn't have anywhere near as many skill points and benefits far more from not having to spend any of them on a completely made up skill to do something they were already good at doing.

Dex gives:
ab
ac
save
many skills

str gives:
damage
ab
weight capacity
1 skill.

In essence, it's a QoL improvement across the board that gives everyone a tiny bit more skill diversity. I don't understand what the objection is at all, and I play casters, who 'suffer' the most from this.

It is not a QoL improvement. Not needing to take epic focus discipline on dexer is not QoL. Not needing pyker's rings and disciple garbs on a dexer is NOT QoL. These are big buffs.

[Might-N-Magic]

They're buffs, yes, but they're also the way the game "was intended to be." In PnP, the only people who were supposed to be good at resisting Trip (Knockdown), Disarm, and Called Shot were the Strong and Agile people, not ones who were supposed to be vulnerable by design.

That reedy little wizard and the cleric who spent 16 hours a day either kneeling at the altar or on the street corner proselytizing were never meant to stand up to a weapon master hamstringing them.

And buffing Dexers is hardly a "huge" thing. Dex builds are pretty trash tier. Far below arcanists, divines, divine warriors, and even a proper weapon master can outright solo epic bosses while most Dex builds just sit there plonking along, unable to do anything of the sort.

Bout the only thing lower is a badly built warrior build, though I'm not going to be surprised if I follow a pure 30 fighter in stealth someday and see him facetank a dragon. Won't surprise me a bit, honestly.

[AstralUniverse]

Last time I fought a shadow dancer I didnt feel that way. Last time I face tanked a dragon with my dex monk I didnt feel that way either. Just my personal experience.

[Anomandaris]

They're buffs, yes, but they're also the way the game "was intended to be." In PnP, the only people who were supposed to be good at resisting Trip (Knockdown), Disarm, and Called Shot were the Strong and Agile people, not ones who were supposed to be vulnerable by design.

That reedy little wizard and the cleric who spent 16 hours a day either kneeling at the altar or on the street corner proselytizing were never meant to stand up to a weapon master hamstringing them.

And buffing Dexers is hardly a "huge" thing. Dex builds are pretty trash tier. Far below arcanists, divines, divine warriors, and even a proper weapon master can outright solo epic bosses while most Dex builds just sit there plonking along, unable to do anything of the sort.

Bout the only thing lower is a badly built warrior build, though I'm not going to be surprised if I follow a pure 30 fighter in stealth someday and see him facetank a dragon. Won't surprise me a bit, honestly.

Ya I 2v1’d a healer path and str based fighter bg build as a SD... admittedly I suck at PvE compared to a lot of builds, I really need someone to -guard me then I am a wrecking ball. But being able to tank or 1v1 a dragon is not my definition of power. I could pick apart that PC that just tanked said dragon...

I agree with some of this but saying dex builds are trash tier is just a little hyperbolic and not what I see in (at least) pvp.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

They're buffs, yes, but they're also the way the game "was intended to be." In PnP, the only people who were supposed to be good at resisting Trip (Knockdown), Disarm, and Called Shot were the Strong and Agile people, not ones who were supposed to be vulnerable by design.

That reedy little wizard and the cleric who spent 16 hours a day either kneeling at the altar or on the street corner proselytizing were never meant to stand up to a weapon master hamstringing them.

Hey! I agree with you about this, 100%!

Dex builds are pretty trash tier.

This seems to be a recurring sentiment for you, and respectfully, I'm not sure we're playing by the same rules on the same server.

I'm fairly certain, without checking, that among things that aren't path/completely customized class options, monk is the only thing that gets this many custom bonuses and free things. If you count each rogue grenade as its own thing, even monk is second to this.

A lot of their potential is gated behind rogue levels, but I'd argue that dexers have it incredibly nice right now, up to and including +5/+6 runed racial weapon potential for DR pierce alongside padded, leather, and studded leather armor that can outperform plate of an equal enhancement bonus with enough rogue levels to go with a jacked Dex modifier. +3 leather armor becomes capable of 2+6 Dex + 6 Dodge(at 24 Rogue levels) + 3 enhancement, for 17 total AC. Full Plate +3 and Tower Shield +3 total 18 AC combined, but the lightly armored bonus doesn't go away with a shield, and you can use a tower shield with the leather armor to get 23 AC out of it.

I don't think any of this is a reason to not axe discipline- I still think the fact that strength-based characters are generally starved for skill points in comparison to dex-based ones, and become less so as a result, outweighs the fact that dexers no longer need discipline- they're already swimming in skill points, and one more isn't going to break them anymore than this giant list of scripted goodies did.

[Scurvy Cur]

To everyone reflexively saying Dex doesn't need any more buffs, allow me to point out that not requiring discipline is in fact a bigger buff to a STR-type meleer, who probably doesn't have anywhere near as many skill points and benefits far more from not having to spend any of them on a completely made up skill to do something they were already good at doing.

Dex gives:
ab
ac
save
many skills

str gives:
damage
ab
weight capacity
1 skill.

In essence, it's a QoL improvement across the board that gives everyone a tiny bit more skill diversity. I don't understand what the objection is at all, and I play casters, who 'suffer' the most from this.

It is not a QoL improvement. Not needing to take epic focus discipline on dexer is not QoL. Not needing pyker's rings and disciple garbs on a dexer is NOT QoL. These are big buffs.

Astral is fully correct here.

Letting discipline count the highest of your STR or DEX would be a disaster. Dex builds have it very, very good right now. They've got the AC to solo, their AB has crept steadily higher, and we've crammed the game full of enough discipline items that they're not really vulnerable to combat maneuvers if they gear and build right (plus you're not killing a high AC edodger in the 1 round he's KDed for on most melee builds). We've also largely immunized dex builds from balagarn's iron horn, which used to be a major threat to them. Finally, any dex build in the present meta is able to dip monk for at least 5-6 and usually closer to 9-10 almost completely free AC, provided they don't need their third class slot for anything. Monks get so much wis for free on their items that +12ing the stat is a trivial exercise.

A brief explanation:

As far as final combat numbers are concerned, in order of importance, I'd prioritize: AB = AC > Saving Throws > HP > Damage. This is because, once a combatant is solidly winning the AB/AC trade (that is, winning it by such a margin that he is landing multiple hits per round and the opponent is struggling to land one), be it in pve or pvp, damage output does not control the outcome of the fight, just the speed at which the superior AC/AB combatant wins.

Saving throws and HP are also both more important than damage, because they each control whether something bad and unfortunate will remove a combatant from the fight before it settles into an AB/AC trade, such as a blown throw on a save or die, or surprise pressure from a crit build before you're ready for a fight. Damage will do neither of these things.

More abstractly, AB is damage, because high AB means hitting more often on your iterative attacks. Likewise, AC and AB are interchangable, within the range allowed by improved expertise. A higher AC allows one to use expertise less often, which in turn translates to higher AB more often, which in turn equates to more iterative attacks hitting, and thus more damage. Damage, however, cannot ever be converted into AC or AB.

Thus, dexterity provides increases to the two most important numbers on a non-caster's sheet, as well as an increase to a saving throw (second tier priority). Strength contributes to one of the most important numbers, and also to the least important major combat statistic on the sheet. One of the saving graces remaining to STR builds is that they usually come out 1 epic feat ahead of their dex counterparts, since they don't need ESF:Disc to protect themselves from combat maneuvers (though there's a side discussion to be had about whether combat maneuvers are that threatening anymore).

The fact is, whenever I play a STR build these days, I often find myself thinking that I'd have been better of as dex, even on prototypically STR archetypes.

RE: Aelryn's suggestion, somewhat different from the OP's, about doing away with discipline entirely and this being a huge boon to STR characters and not to DEX ones, I again have to disagree. With the sole exception of deep rogue builds, a lot of STR and DEX builds get nearly identical amounts of skill points. A STR spellsword and a DEX spellsword get close to the same skill point totals. A STR ranger and a DEX ranger get close to the same skill point totals. A STR paladin and a DEX paladin get close to the same skill point totals. I suspect his comments are based in his admitted unfamiliarity with anything but caster builds; it's possible that he thinks every dex build is a rogue, which is objectively untrue.

All this change would accomplish is remove one of the remaining reasons to choose STR for any of the above builds over DEX by equalizing the resilience of the two against combat maneuvers.

[Baron Saturday]

Consider my curiosity satisfied. Cheers!