HIPS Nerf

[Anomandaris]

Big fan of the nerf, personally.

[...]Call me biased, but the 5-dip line of SD builds have always come across to me as a cheap way to get the drop on the average player.

So now we're assuming that players (like myself) who are min-maxing SD class dips are doing so to pwn average players? Whereas everyone else min-maxing literally everything else is just... morally neutral smart building?

[Arigard]

As a SD main, I'm not too bothered by this change. I think everyone agrees HIPS was one of the most powerful abilities in the game.

One thing I would say though is, having it flat across the board regardless of how many levels in SD you have seems a little strange considering it's the class that HIPS is built around.

For any other class things scale, (spells/summons/sneaks/fighter bonuses/rogue grenades/bonuses) and plenty of classes get nice little bonuses as they get into the 15-20 range. it should be no different with SD. Getting back a slightly more durable PvE summon and a moderate daze ability doesn't really justify a 15+ dip into the class. I mean hell, at 16 levels rangers get HIPS for free and have better AB and then get bane of heroes at higher levels. Rogues get grenades, hard sneak, more skills and rogue bonus feats, plus all of the arelith class benefits.

Scaling it with SD investment a little, seems wise, perhaps down to a maximum of a 3 round cool-down? SD get very little actual hard class bonuses when they invest heavily and their go to ability is available to many other builds at the same rate. If the cooldown isn't going to get scaled for SD investment, then the class as a whole really needs a little love.

[Chosen Son]

I would rather SD got something else in higher levels to reward investment in the clas if you wanted to down that past, then make the cooldown any shorter. HiPS is a super toxic ability in the current enviorment.

[Wrips]

So now we're assuming that players (like myself) who are min-maxing SD class dips are doing so to pwn average players? Whereas everyone else min-maxing literally everything else is just... morally neutral smart building?

I quoted Hex mostly in relation to HIPS abuse regarding breaking off combat to gain free flat footed flurries against your opponent. I tested it extensively on the pgcc and it was one of the most mechanicaly toxic things I've ever seen in NWN.

[Chosen Son]

So now we're assuming that players (like myself) who are min-maxing SD class dips are doing so to pwn average players? Whereas everyone else min-maxing literally everything else is just... morally neutral smart building?

I quoted Hex mostly in relation to HIPS abuse regarding breaking off combat to gain free flat footed flurries against your opponent. I tested it extensively on the pgcc and it was one of the most mechanicaly toxic things I've ever seen in NWN.

100% this.

[Flower Power]

I'm mostly curious where people are getting "spot is hard to get high" from.

Unless your character is in Detect Mode, spot/listen are rolled at 1d10 + (Spot or Listen/2) vs. the stealther's 1d20 + (Entire Stealth Skill), plus or minus situational modifiers to both.

Most players aren't going to be in Detect Mode in combat (and if they are, the Stealther still gets a flat +10 bonus to their roll) in order to be able to actually get full use of their Spot skill.

If you do happen to spot a stealther with HiPS, chances are you're going to need to break Detect Mode in order to catch up with them (due to Rogue stealth movespeed or Blinding Speed being stealth-activateable), at which point you just get HiPS'd and are now rolling again at 1/2 your skill with a smaller die until you activate Detect Mode again - at which point, they've gotten an even bigger lead on you because - again - they move faster in stealth than you can walk.

Without Trueseeing around, NWN's stealth mechanics have always favored the Sneak - very, very, very heavily.

Spot is an always-on passive ability that ruins another character's plans so it I think ought to be less effective than maximized bluff and hide/MS.

If a heavily invested disguiser or sneaker couldn't get away with it much of the time there'd be no point to playing one, or it'd be a gimmick like pickpocket than nobody really uses except when they don't mind getting caught.

I don't mind the HiPS change but I'm biased as my 24 rogue won't be wishing they'd taken SD levels as much.

See above.

[Drogo Gyslain]

I haven't seen someone walk into PC housing or faction housing w/out using TS or caltrops in a loooooong time. This is super easy to counter and incredibly risk on the part of the sneak.

If you see someone using caltrops to detect stealthers, report it.

How is that an exploit?

[three wolf moon]

I haven't seen someone walk into PC housing or faction housing w/out using TS or caltrops in a loooooong time. This is super easy to counter and incredibly risk on the part of the sneak.

If you see someone using caltrops to detect stealthers, report it.

How is that an exploit?

Because you're using your combat log to "detect" stealthers you can't see. You have no realistic IC way of knowing your caltrops are actually doing damage unless you god-emote that your character can hear stealthers hopping around going "ouch!", which again would be a function of the Listen skill, not the caltrops themselves. It's metagaming, basically.

[Hunter548]

I haven't seen someone walk into PC housing or faction housing w/out using TS or caltrops in a loooooong time. This is super easy to counter and incredibly risk on the part of the sneak.

If you see someone using caltrops to detect stealthers, report it.

How is that an exploit?

You have no way to know someone is triggering your caltrops from stealth except by the combat log, which is not IC information.

[Drogo Gyslain]

You have no way to know someone is triggering your caltrops from stealth except by the combat log, which is not IC information.

Alright, I didn't know that. I thought it forced someone out of stealth, not did shadow damage.

However.

I would find it highly suspect on why it wouldn't push someone out of stealth, aside from the logical aspect of they are recieving damage and it should break stealth. I guess just because it isn't a hostile action?

From a realism standpoint though, I would disagree entirely and thats dumb. But from a rules and combat log I see the point.

Thanks for the insight onto that. Something I've never used, but considered, but won't be now.

[AstralUniverse]

Yep I was wondering how soon this one would happen. Apparently very soon.

So I was in favor of 18 seconds but whatever. I think hips is overrated anyway.

What I would like the staff to consider is to give scaling CDR so 16 SD build can make it back to 12 seconds CD (those builds arent a pvp thread at all anyway, and I dont care if they need it for pve or not, it's CORE in their class).

[Anomandaris]

I'm mostly curious where people are getting "spot is hard to get high" from.

Unless your character is in Detect Mode, spot/listen are rolled at 1d10 + (Spot or Listen/2) vs. the stealther's 1d20 + (Entire Stealth Skill), plus or minus situational modifiers to both.

Most players aren't going to be in Detect Mode in combat (and if they are, the Stealther still gets a flat +10 bonus to their roll) in order to be able to actually get full use of their Spot skill.

If you do happen to spot a stealther with HiPS, chances are you're going to need to break Detect Mode in order to catch up with them (due to Rogue stealth movespeed or Blinding Speed being stealth-activateable), at which point you just get HiPS'd and are now rolling again at 1/2 your skill with a smaller die until you activate Detect Mode again - at which point, they've gotten an even bigger lead on you because - again - they move faster in stealth than you can walk.

Without Trueseeing around, NWN's stealth mechanics have always favored the Sneak - very, very, very heavily.

Spot is an always-on passive ability that ruins another character's plans so it I think ought to be less effective than maximized bluff and hide/MS.

If a heavily invested disguiser or sneaker couldn't get away with it much of the time there'd be no point to playing one, or it'd be a gimmick like pickpocket than nobody really uses except when they don't mind getting caught.

I don't mind the HiPS change but I'm biased as my 24 rogue won't be wishing they'd taken SD levels as much.

See above.

Also all these convos about beating sneak have focused on the direct mechanical opposition of spot/listen vs. hide/ms. "Beating" a sneak is way more broad than that. Choking powder against an un mind blanked rogue in the vicinity can do that for you.

One simple trick that almost any PC can do is when another PC stealths, just go invisible. See invis wands do not last long, there is a high chance in shotgun pvp see invis will not be on the Rogue/SD. Now they're in stealth and can't see you. They have to break stealth to activate see invis, or you can just leave/ward up and do other things.

With the CD change, you have now negated that SD's 1 HIPS in the fight with a universally available wand of imp invis. And sure, sometimes said SD may have see invis, but I'll bet you 95% they won't unless come pre-warded from a wiz/sorc etc.

Just looking at this stuff in a vacuum never represents reality. I've said it a few times, no one has addressed it. A 12 sec CD does not mean the pc enters stealth every 12 seconds. It's impossible to time perfectly given latency, combat log craziness, user error and response times. You're looking at 13-15 seconds. If it was an 18 second CD you'll be seeing 19-21 seconds at best. So it's more than 2 rounds already. This isn't a hypothetical vacuum, it's a dynamic environment.

People clearly just dislike the ability and it seems the theme is get rid of it entirely or make it 1/min cd. As someone who's played a Rogue/SD for a long time, it's kinda said to hear people say they want to all-together do away with something you really enjoy playing. I think I play the PC well (in combat and rp) and I am super aware of tons of glaring weaknesses. I've never felt invincible or OP in the several years with this PC. I've always known I have a fighting chance and am a force to be reckoned with, but now it feels very underwhelming and I kind of want to roll the PC or get a re-level to make something that will work with the new nerf.

I know some here have stated experience on Arelith with stealth, but I'm not sure that some of the dissenters have actually played this kind of build (maybe I'm wrong). The gross over simplification of just click, hide and kill makes me think not.

Lastly, how is TS hard to come by all the sudden? Sure the duration is short, but 25 lore is cheap and "required" now, not for TS, but to get all the wards of use (almost) for your mundane and at crazy high CL for dispel. It's more universally available than when scrolls were UMD based...

There's no changing minds though. People seem to be concerned about an exploit and apparently this has been a long unsolved problem for a long time. I see a fair number of SD's about the server, maybe too many and I agree with a slight nerf, but I'm honestly very surprised to see such opposition to what is a very easily counter-able mechanic. I don't like WM crits, I really don't like monk speed & AC, I don't like Protect domain gsanc, I don't like archer rangded dmg output.. so what? It just feels like to me this place has become, nerf/remove what is powerful and call it balance. People that used to use it gripe about the nerf (me in this case), people that don't cheer, because now one thing that was a thorn in their side is gone. HIPS is a very real threat to almost any PC. I get that. And sure, was it a little too powerful? Yeah, maybe. But this world is supposed to be full of spooky, scary things, that if you aren't ready for put you in the dirt (unless that's just my view of it).

I always loved the fear a SD could instill, even when I wasn't playing one. The fact this mysterious hunter could fade away and reappear, taunting me while being at their mercy totally was awesome. I learned to deal with it since and also play one so it doesn't seem to bad to me, I know it's weaknesses intimately as one who has to protect against said weaknesses. I've faught them and know how to do so even without a "purpose built build." Having talked to a ton of other players who have these types of builds offline about this, people are considering rolling, very disheartened and likewise agree that their builds are pretty much gutted. Again, I challenge you to show me otherwise in PGCC against any of the other meta-popular builds.

[magna ferrum in eius coxae]

maybe too many and I agree with a slight nerf

This nerf is very slight dude. Be happy.

[Tarkus the dog]

If you were basing your toon's defensive capability on HiPS entirely, that was your mistake. It also proved how powerful this single feat was to allow a character like that to survive for so long. HiPS is now in a much better position without being entirely 'useless' as you put it. I've two rangers and one shadowdancer and I'm not slightly bothered by the change. It was going to happen, the question was only when.

[DM Rex]

As an aside regarding 'caltrops' and stealth.
The damage done causes someone from stealth to drop it, making them quite visible.
Caltrops are a visible feature on the ground, those who are in stealth would do well to avoid them. This is not an exploit.

[three wolf moon]

As an aside regarding 'caltrops' and stealth.
The damage done causes someone from stealth to drop it, making them quite visible.
Caltrops are a visible feature on the ground, those who are in stealth would do well to avoid them. This is not an exploit.

The exploit lies not in throwing the caltrops on the ground. That causes a break in stealth because you are using an item. Yes.

However, are you telling me that putting caltrops on a transition and looking at your combat log to see if you damage someone stealthing through, is not an exploit? Because I've been told the opposite by DMs who i have asked (in the past). To clarify, someone taking damage from caltrops (or any sort of floor-targeted area damage) does not unstealth.

[DM Rex]

Using anything on transitions such as traps, caltrops, etc is not permitted.
The item should also not be used to excess.

Those who notice either behavior should report it to the DM Team.

If you do not physically see the person, then the combat log is not to be used as proof of discovery or IC information.

[dallion43]

When TS was crippled and knok was semi-gutted, etc, I immediatly calculated the amount of TS scrolls I need to have now per potential HIPS fight following the change.
Long story short, due to no HIPS nerf in sight, PC was shelved shortly after. Another one with proper adjustments was made.

Spot following the lore change is even harder to max to relevant then it was before. Listen is easier, but listen is bs.
Hide alpha+HiPS still give you a minimum of two flurries vs flat-footed.

Shelfing/remaking is normal if you feel that now your char is not where you wanted it to be. Most of my PCs were shelfed due to nerfs over the years on Arelith....at some point you just getting used to it and try not to build anything that will probably be nerfed in the short future like the wiz/cha after lore.
I waited ~5 RL months for a nerf before I desided to build a *run, it's a monk!* like everyone else. Three weeks after it was nerfed to unusable nonsense.

P.C
Try not to engage in PvP unless LOS breaker is very, very near. This will give you your 3 flurry most of the times.

[Might-N-Magic]

12 was already needlessly long, 30? Well, you've utterly destroyed the ability to be any way useful offensively or defensively. Now it lasts so long every pve and pvp fight is going to be overwith before you even get to use it. Are those of us with SD levels going to get rebuilds since it's useless now?

All this just because people are too lazy to invest in Spot and Listen.

[Flower Power]

12 was already needlessly long, 30? Well, you've utterly destroyed the ability to be any way useful offensively or defensively. Now it lasts so long every pve and pvp fight is going to be overwith before you even get to use it. Are those of us with SD levels going to get rebuilds since it's useless now?

All this just because people are too lazy to invest in Spot and Listen.

Again - due to the way that Spot/Listen mechanics function in NWN, it's less a matter of "people being too lazy to invest in spot" and more a matter of "Detection mechanics are functionally unusable in combat due to the way NWN is scripted, which made using HiPS in PvP toxic to the extreme." Because you're not going to spot the 80+ Hide/MS Shadowdancer even with 80+ Spot, because you're going to probably be rolling at 1d10 + (40-10) vs. 1d20 + (80). Quick maffs.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

Using anything on transitions such as traps, caltrops, etc is not permitted.
The item should also not be used to excess.

Those who notice either behavior should report it to the DM Team.

If you do not physically see the person, then the combat log is not to be used as proof of discovery or IC information.

Can I ask why this differs from using spellcraft to identify that your foe is casting protection from elements, or passing the spot check to notice a pick pocket stealing from you even if your inventory isn't open?

It seems to me that if someone scatters caltrops in front of the entrance to their quarter, in an attempt to not be followed, rather than on the transition inside where someone will load in with no chance to react, that this should not only be allowed, but is sensible.

Someone implied it was god-emoting, but if you're already paranoid and looking for someone who follows you, and they take damage on the caltrops you scattered, it seems reasonable to me that the inflicted damage would either draw blood (leaving an IC means to determine a follower) OR their skin is impossibly tough because RP reasons, and the caltrop would break, still giving an IC reason to know. (While we're at it, can we open a side-thread to discuss the fact that 95% of quarter entrances are in wide-open areas or hallways with lighting and no concealment, but it's not 'god-emoting' against the person you're following that they don't see you coming into their house behind them, even as they hurry to slam the door shut?)

Can we get clarification on this? I understand the spirit of not wanting players to go through a transition and leave traps on the transition that people can't avoid. Leaving traps outside of a transition into a locked quarter, however, seems like it handily solves the exploit factor of baiting people into traps they can't see. You don't load into the trap, you choose to go through it before you transition. You would of course still be responsible for cleaning up after yourself to ensure you don't harm innocent passerby, but it seems like the obligation should end there.

[Ork]

Man, y'all do anything not to get spied on. Starting to think we should remove quarters.

[the grim yeeter]

All that I can say is: finally.

This has been having to happen from the moment true sight got nerfed and the lore update kicked in. Happy to see the cooldown increased on such a busted mechanic. 30 seconds is still not enough (a minute would have been better), but it's a start. Everyone saying this nerf is bad: boy, you have no idea (or you are playing a character with HiPS and just don't want to bite the bullet).

Can I ask why this differs from using spellcraft to identify that your foe is casting protection from elements, or passing the spot check to notice a pick pocket stealing from you even if your inventory isn't open?

I can't believe I'm having to explain this to someone who, as far as I am aware, has been playing Arelith, a roleplay server, for a considerable amount of time, but here we go again: both of the examples you gave are checks made with a skill (that you either invested or did not invest in). That is not the case for caltrops and their damage. Use your common sense, and look at it this way: you throw spikes on the ground and you leave to walk, say, two areas away from where you threw the spikes. Would you somehow be able to, through telepathic connection with your caltrops, tell that someone stepped on those spikes? No. Of course not. And no, you cannot just assume that the target stepping on a spike screams "OUCH!". That is, indeed, god-emoting.

[three wolf moon]

snip

It's not allowed in general to put AoE effects on transitions, on either side. Just because caltrops only do a small amount of damage doesn't mean this is waived, especially since it's done to metagame the presence of people you can't see.

The combat log isn't IC information. If discretion is valuable to you, use true seeing or buy detect. Quarters can be broken into and -scry is a thing, you're not meant to have 100% privacy or safety anywhere.

Also, the caltrops VFX disappears, so often times you don't even know you're walking on them.

[Quidix]

Overall I'm in favour of this change, although (as always) I have much sympathy for affected characters.

I'm fine with giving some new cookie for heavy SD invested characters.

To be clear, this change 'did not come out of nowhere' - there was a 5 page debate about it earlier this year: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=27311&hilit=spot+listen