Nerfs and pure/majority classes

Feedback relating to the other areas of Arelith, also includes old topics.


Moderators: Active Admins, Active DMs, Forum Moderators

Post Reply
jomonog
Posts: 155
Joined: Fri May 15, 2020 2:32 am

Nerfs and pure/majority classes

Post by jomonog »

I totally understand and support the need to make balance adjustments mainly for PVP.

It seems though a lot of the balance issues are caused by dip classes like 3 monk/5SD/3divine etc.

The problem is by nerfing things like monk gear, HIPs cooldown, divine might/shield stacking even it is also punishing pure classes.

Pure or majority monk really suffers if you take away no access to 4-stat monk gear. Majority shadow dancer is punished as hard as the 5SD dips with the same cooldown on HIPs.

Subject of course to it being possible from a coding perspective, my suggestion is to implement nerfs in a more nuanced way which minimise collateral damage to builds which aren't part of the problem.

For the present nerfs, that would mean gating access to monk gear to majority monk levels (for example), and for shadowdancer allowing the cool down to reduce based on more shadowdancer levels (similar to blinding speed cooldown with rogue levels).

I think the same result could be achieved then by the nerfs with less damage to builds that aren't really part of the problem that the nerfs are trying to address.
User avatar
Ork
Arelith Gold Supporter
Arelith Gold Supporter
Posts: 2623
Joined: Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Re: Nerfs and pure/majority classes

Post by Ork »

What 4 stats does a monk require to be effective? Dex, Con, Wis is only three. If you throw in Str, that's just icing baby. Classes are balanced around multiclassing because D&D is a game that utilizes and incentivizes multiclassing.
AstralUniverse
Posts: 3119
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: Nerfs and pure/majority classes

Post by AstralUniverse »

We dont even know what the nerf to monk items really means. My monk's items are all intact and I dont know if he might be naked next time I log in or something like that.

You dont NEED 4-stat gear on monk. From my experience, you will reach +7 dex, wisdom and con (so you can max them with potions easily) and still have room for 2-3 str to make your str 18-20 with potions and that's +5 damage you're not really supposed to have balance-wise as a dex monk. On top of that, you will still have room for +3 fortitude rings (with 1 basin and 1 rune for 2 stats and the save) to put your fort above 30 easily.

I really dont mind the items are nerfed to offer slightly weaker gear economy because it wont hurt the end-game potential almost at all. It might ultimately just remove those str points.

It really takes careful runic work and knowledge of the order of which properties you enchant on what runes to actually make use of the rune system to the limit. For example, I put 1d4 damage on my gloves right away, without a second thought - later I found out I cannot rune my gloves further and that if I runed something weaker than 1d4 damage (like +1 stat or +1 save) I would still be able to rune the gloves again for 1d4. That trick is now simply gone along with several others like it. Its probably for a good reason. I just hope that those of us who didnt know of these tricks or just didnt exploit them wont find themselves naked in a few days.
KriegEternal wrote:

Their really missing mords and some minor flavor things.

Seven Sons of Sin
Posts: 2198
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 3:40 am

Re: Nerfs and pure/majority classes

Post by Seven Sons of Sin »

Ork wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:53 am Classes are balanced around multiclassing because D&D is a game that utilizes and incentivizes multiclassing.
Previous:
Oskarr of Procampur, Ro Irokon, Nahal Azyen, Nelehein Afsana (of Impiltur), Vencenti Medici, Nizram ali Balazdam, (Roznik) Naethandreil
Freyason
Posts: 447
Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2016 12:13 am
Location: Brogendenstein

Re: Nerfs and pure/majority classes

Post by Freyason »

Yea I'm not really sure what monk rune change really means either :)
User avatar
Flower Power
Posts: 493
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2019 8:02 am

Re: Nerfs and pure/majority classes

Post by Flower Power »

Ork wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 2:53 am Classes are balanced around multiclassing because D&D is a game that utilizes and incentivizes multiclassing.
Shadowdancer is especially balanced around multiclassing since it scales at a 1:1 ratio with Rogue levels for unlocking a lot of the juicier rogue perks.
what would fred rogers do?
User avatar
Ebonstar
Posts: 1471
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 2:17 pm
Location: you may not see me but i see you

Re: Nerfs and pure/majority classes

Post by Ebonstar »

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:15 am We dont even know what the nerf to monk items really means. My monk's items are all intact and I dont know if he might be naked next time I log in or something like that.

You dont NEED 4-stat gear on monk. From my experience, you will reach +7 dex, wisdom and con (so you can max them with potions easily) and still have room for 2-3 str to make your str 18-20 with potions and that's +5 damage you're not really supposed to have balance-wise as a dex monk. On top of that, you will still have room for +3 fortitude rings (with 1 basin and 1 rune for 2 stats and the save) to put your fort above 30 easily.

I really dont mind the items are nerfed to offer slightly weaker gear economy because it wont hurt the end-game potential almost at all. It might ultimately just remove those str points.

It really takes careful runic work and knowledge of the order of which properties you enchant on what runes to actually make use of the rune system to the limit. For example, I put 1d4 damage on my gloves right away, without a second thought - later I found out I cannot rune my gloves further and that if I runed something weaker than 1d4 damage (like +1 stat or +1 save) I would still be able to rune the gloves again for 1d4. That trick is now simply gone along with several others like it. Its probably for a good reason. I just hope that those of us who didnt know of these tricks or just didnt exploit them wont find themselves naked in a few days.
it as explained in another thread it makes the runes needed for runiing greater and masterwork instead of lesser
Yes I can sign
AstralUniverse
Posts: 3119
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: Nerfs and pure/majority classes

Post by AstralUniverse »

I'm not sure what thread you're talking about and "- Note: Legacy items from above will be removed in a future update. This is a warning to allow you time to obtain other options." sounds like all runed existing items from these three types will disappear or lose their last runed property or something. Its quite vague, is what I'm saying.
KriegEternal wrote:

Their really missing mords and some minor flavor things.

User avatar
Baron Saturday
Posts: 2364
Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:34 am

Re: Nerfs and pure/majority classes

Post by Baron Saturday »

AstralUniverse wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 9:47 pm I'm not sure what thread you're talking about and "- Note: Legacy items from above will be removed in a future update. This is a warning to allow you time to obtain other options." sounds like all runed existing items from these three types will disappear or lose their last runed property or something. Its quite vague, is what I'm saying.
Xerah wrote: Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:50 pm Disappearing is a last resort and not exactly necessary.

Making them plot (so they can't be traded), making them unrepairable is also an option (but doesn't work for beads). Modifying them back to base stats if they've been runed plus a refund is another possibility. Most times items get changed with no warning but we wanted to be more upfront that it will happen.
The vagueness appears to be intentional, as it sounds like the team hasn't decided exactly how to handle the legacy items.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
AstralUniverse
Posts: 3119
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:54 pm

Re: Nerfs and pure/majority classes

Post by AstralUniverse »

Well, I'm not a developer but I know the monk items and their runic options and potential inside out through out several characters I played to 30 and more. There were very few ways to get better properties on these items than what their options offer now and they resulted in perhaps 1-2 stats and 1-2 singular save properties over what we will see now. The real purpose of this change is to simply make everything more expensive and take longer time to obtain, as it requires bigger runes, but the power will not change almost at all because of what I've explained in my post above.

So from my perspective, if I lose my items, I will be losing an outfit I havent even masterworked yet and will be able to obtain again to the same power, same for my gloves because I put 1d4 damage on the first rune rather than the second and the belt is rng so unless you manage to 5% it, the only difference is greater instead of lesser and the power cap remains the same. So ultimately we would be able to reach the same items and taking them away to begin with is pointless. That's my two cents.
KriegEternal wrote:

Their really missing mords and some minor flavor things.

Post Reply