Surface Races in Anundor

[Kuma]

It is a time honored tradition to purge goblins, and excuse your history but Xun'viir did it first. If you feel like there's a double standard, it's time to play outside the Underdark. Your tribalism is blinding you.

xun'viir wasn't even an established power when the first outcasts built the first death camps

begone, revisionist.

[Ork]

Outcasts were crying out for succor when Xun'viir graciously uplifted them!

[Kuma]

Outcasts were crying out for succor when Xun'viir graciously uplifted them!

YOUR MATRON WAS A HUMAN, AND YOUR FATHER SMELLED OF RIPPLEBARK

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I'd be curious to see a source of this?

I thought this was really interesting when I saw it.



Turns out my memory was mixed up! It's not "an elven city," but "The Elven Woods" - drow make up a majority in an entire region on the surface, during the very era we are currently set in.

While they're not, y'know, evil nasty Lolthite drow, it at least supports the fact that drow can and do exist on the surface, without their eyeballs bursting into flame or their flesh melting off their bones.

Those numbers are greatly skewed because most of the elves are long gone for hundreds of years at this point, with the remaining elves being in the western part of the forest (the tangle trees) and they are reclusive to the point that they would likely kill non elves that enter their domain regardless of race. The elves don't return to Myth Drannor until 1374. House Jaerle, a drow house that has long been at war with the northern dales have commandeered fortresses in the forest that they raid from, but its not like they set up a village or anything. Its just a strike force that stays on the surface to commit raids at night. And they are most certainly the meany types of drow.

There are no shiny happy drow living on the surface at any point in forgotten realms history post the fourth crown war and them actually becoming drow, and even then you could make the case that the Ilythiir (the empire of dark elves that eventually became the drow) were not shiny happy folks either, as it was a conquering nation. Good drow tend to stay in the dark and try and fight their evil kin from within, and it is a normal reaction as someone who lives on the surface to grab your pitchfork when you see a drow. Its just part of the game you are playing.

[Kuma]

i should learn to read forum threads before vithposting, because this entire argument could be nipped at the bud in the first paragraph:

With the devs making it require a reward to play an Outcast or Slave I thought finally we had reached a point where Anundor would be recognized as the domain of drow, ogres, goblins, and other monstrous races, and that humans/elves/etc. would become the minority there. But nope. Honestly, I don't want to play any monster race as long as this attitude remains prevalent on the server.

Then quit the Underdark.

The update wasn't meant to make the city into some monster-mash that surfacers fear.

Andunor wasn't meant to Be that in the first place, ever. Diversity, specifically in the form of humans, is why there's still an Underdark on the server that isn't just dungeons.

We can bandy about lore examples all... *checks notes* ...decade, or we can realise that Andunor's kind of a homebrew setting that takes inspiration from all parts of canon FR, while also changing things up to accomodate for the nature of having playable monster races that, normally, would be XP fodder on the surface, and enable drow and similar races to flourish within reason after their earlier spaces failed to meet server standards.

If we want to have this discussion we must define our terms better. "Monster race", "underdark race", "surfacer", "outcast", etc - some people use these in their mechanical starting place terms, some use it based on different rules they're expected to abide by OOC, others by the canon taxonomy of a race (ie "goblins are a surface race" being the usual spanner in the works).

But this entire discussion is fruitless unless we're approaching the intent of the space and the design choices that went into it by the definitions laid out in the past - and therefore some extensive server history not everyone remembers or was there for. But it's impossible to sit down and have that discussion even if we define these terms, if we aren't all on the same page of the space that Andunor occupies on the server, and it's evident from this thread that we aren't.

I'm willing to have that discussion but I also think this thread will get locked before I can start pontificating and asking "so, what do we mean by a monster".

[magistrasa]

Those numbers are greatly skewed

This just seems a bit nitpicky. Do the circumstances around the numbers really matter if the numbers are true? My point is that drow live and exist on the surface.

Hilariously, Menzoberranzan apparently had about 20,000 drow at the same point - at least, that's what a cursory FRWiki search tells me, it's admittedly hard to believe. But if that's true, that means that right now there are more drow living in this one region of the surface than the entirety of Menzoberranzan. Almost three times as many!

(If the numbers are true.)

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Menzoberrezan's statistics are worth looking at imo. Because all the people who get upset about free humans in Andunor don't realize if Andunor was styled after Menzoberrezan, every single monster race would only be slaves. While humans could exist as non-slaves.

[Kuma]

it's almost like trying to have accurate demographics in this setting could be considered an error in judgement, never mind rely on ones pulled from FRwiki. where wikipedia's reputation as being "unreliable" was poorly deserved, the reverse is the case here.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

Re: Drow on the surface: I seem to recall there was a ruined Tower mentioned as existing in Shadowdale. The Drow had taken over it, sealed it, and used it for raiding out onto the surface, many years previously.

The Tower existed with a reputation of "don't go there" and a "Definitely don't go there at night". Very much like Dol Guldur (Necromancer's stronghold in Mirkwood / LOTR)

Taking over surface structures in this manner is a common ploy of Drow iirc from FR lore.

[three wolf moon]

There are absolutely drow surface communities. Mechanically, drow coming up from the underdark into sunlight suffer blindness for a few rounds, then a flat -4 to everything as long as they remain in sunlight, iirc. However, per the wiki:

It took a drow about ten years of exposure to get used to the sunlight and to use their infravision and normal vision simultaneously. Initial exposure to sunlight was dangerous for a drow and cause of heavy sunburns. Even after getting used to the sunlight, drow had a strong tendency to cover their skin and head.

From a game standpoint this usually meant taking the "Daylight Adaptation" feat, which allows a race with light blindness/sensitivity to exist on the surface without penalty.

[The GrumpyCat]

it'd be too lore breaking for many

Only because many people in the server don't actually know lore and think that monster races straight-up melt in the sunlight. When in reality, there are actually surface drow in the forgotten realms. There's a city where they're the majority race among other elves, no less. In PnP, drow get like a -2 penalty to attack rolls while they're in the sunlight. Doesn't sound like the sunlight's all that debilitating to me. Sounds more like an inability to discern details and mild discomfort in direct light. And yet every time I go to the surface alongside a drow they pull out such a grandiose performance of pain and agony, screaming that their eyes are burning out of their skull, as if there's a DM somewhere offstage waiting to hand them an Oscar. That's pretty lore breaking if you ask me. Kills my immersion every time I see it.

And for those of you who are like, "Well, Corellon's curse makes it so they are in pain under the sun and uh yeah, makes sense!" Okay, what's the excuse for gnolls, kobolds, and goblins? They're literally surface races. And why are duergar given a pass on being active and open surface tourists when they're just as evil as drow?

At some point we need to be able to acknowledge we're defending something that doesn't make sense. Hopefully then we can evolve into something that works better for everyone.

Reguarding Monster Acceptence On The Surface

1) Yes, we do overplay the Drow Sunlight thing. See my first post. Sunlight is always uncomfortable for drow at least (and lore backs that up.) And in general we ask that Drow just avoid it in general, because its a nice clean line - and further dicinsentivises Surface Drow.

2) Surface Drow
Yes, cannon wise there are drow on the surface. And technically there can be surface drow on arelith. But said 'surface drow' in cannon arn't going shopping with their besties in waterdeep, or running shoe pubs in Baldur's Gate. They are (with a very few scant exceptions) Likely enclaves in the very deep forests, or single individuals, working hard to gain acceptence and living in the wilds for the most part, or maybe deep secret cults in the underbelly of the city.
To use Drizzt as an example - think Drizzt in the Sojurn book, or in the first Icewind Dale book. A hermit, living on the very edge of civilisaiton, only barely tolerated by the local populace.
Wanna play a surface Drow/Monster? You can do that but
*You'll have to rp your light sensitivity
*You yes, have to expect to be pvped, and pvped regularly as a 'monster'
*Find quarters -well- outside anywhere with a major npc presence
*And most of all, stay away from all settlments, entering only when absolutly neccesary, well disguised/stealthed/hidden, understanding that if the NPCs can see your character, they would likely try and kill it

When people talk about tolerance of UD/Surface interactions, what they forget is often they're talking about tolerance of Evil vs Good, as this is basically what the two areas represent.

Jon the Cookie Paladin is less likely to tolerate Bob the Baby Slaughterer (even if he isn't being threatening) because one would hope, on a principled level, Jon the Cookie Paladin is against the murder of babies.

But Bob the Baby Slaughterer is more likely to tolerate Jon the Cookie Paladin (so long as Jon isn't hostile) because it might give Bob access to more babies to murder!

That's why the disparity in npcs reactions.

'But' I hear you cry 'Bob the Baby Murderer might murder Jon the Cookie Paladin anyway, because he's evil!'

And you're right - but as I said in my first post on this thread - we can generally trust Evil/Underdark PCs to do this for us, dm side, more than we can trust Good PCs on the surface to do this the other way - because people tend to rp 'tolerance' as a 'good' concept and are more avoidant of conflict.

Few people want to play the part of the 'raging mob' on the surface, driving the poor widdle monsters out. And I get that, but sadly for believability - that's what needs to happen. Because even if the PCs are accepting, NPCs wouldn't. NPCs don't (technicaly) see the difference between a PC drow and an NPC drow. It's all drow to them.

[three wolf moon]

Yes, I probably should have amended that I understand why there is no "surface drow/monster" community on Arelith, I was just sharing factoids since there are some who seem genuinely unaware of these things.

Not trying to step on your/the team's toes, Grumpy, honest!

Few people want to play the part of the 'raging mob' on the surface, driving the poor widdle monsters out.

I definitely am in this group. Bring on the pitchforks.

[The GrumpyCat]

Yes, I probably should have amended that I understand why there is no "surface drow/monster" community on Arelith, I was just sharing factoids since there are some who seem genuinely unaware of these things.

Not trying to step on your/the team's toes, Grumpy, honest!

Few people want to play the part of the 'raging mob' on the surface, driving the poor widdle monsters out.

I definitely am in this group. Bring on the pitchforks.

I didn't think you were TWM! In fact I hadn't even seen your post when I was typing that! It took me agest to tap out.

[Skibbles]

Outcasts were crying out for succor when Xun'viir graciously uplifted them!

YOUR MATRON WAS A HUMAN, AND YOUR FATHER SMELLED OF RIPPLEBARK

First: LOL.

Second: Kuma seems to remember pretty accurately. The outcast vs goblin/udos mess was playing out since Andunor day 1 and it was House Vh'larra (who owned Xun'viir's future matron at the time) that was the prominent drow faction at the time.

If I recall correctly OG Xun'viir spent most of its earliest days at significant odds with the outcasts of the Sharps (Xun'viir wanted both districts under their control, and the matron was pursuing a very long vendetta with one outcast in particular). Since the goblins were all about having the Sharps for themselves there were no interactions between the two factions whether in alliance or war and certainly no 'purging.'

I distinctly recall some pretty horrible ooc stuff directed at outcasts/slaves in those days - from my own perspective I mostly got tells about me ruining the setting, etc, or poorly written notes spammed at my door that clearly weren't IC inspired. Humorously I still did get tells on the very very rarest of occasions by people returning after many years, but it's been maybe about a year since the last one.

I only add this, besides that it's probably important to correct the record, to say that I doubt the outcasts were just no RP pvping all goblins but in fact IC reacting to *extreme hostility* from multiple factions, and on multiple fronts.

This hostility has never gone away whether IG or on the forums.

It's Andunor. Talk sh**, get hit. Early Andunor most especially carried this motto.
---
Either way I'm not even sure why this is a thread, or why events from over five years ago are being brought up fresh.

OP said he hasn't even played in Andunor for months already, and there has never been fewer 'surfacers' in Andunor in its entire history than there are now.

Otherwise Kuma is spot on. Just like bending your own character's RP to get more people involved, so too is it important to bend the setting for the same reason.

If you struggle to do either of the above then its best to steer clear.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Wanna play a surface Drow/Monster? You can do that but
*You'll have to rp your light sensitivity
*You yes, have to expect to be pvped, and pvped regularly as a 'monster'
*Find quarters -well- outside anywhere with a major npc presence
*And most of all, stay away from all settlments, entering only when absolutly neccesary, well disguised/stealthed/hidden, understanding that if the NPCs can see your character, they would likely try and kill it

Quoted for posterity.

[Nekonecro]

I think you should give this a good read:
http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Playing_any_UD_race

When you're playing a monsterous race it is stated with the understanding that it's not going to be equal to the surface folk, it's not supposed to be.
Hells, conside it playing hardmode Arelith if you want.
D&D doesn't have SJW equallity for all races. It's racist, unfair and brutal in some cases and y'know what? that's what makes conflict and that's what makes the best stories.

What would you rather have in a fantasy setting? an epic tale of battles, spellcasting and stakes or the story about how Francine is having another wish baby with Jenny while running their corner cafe and petting their favourite Gnoll Fluffles OwO.

[satan]

I think this is more of a symptom of a larger problem rather than a diagnosis unto itself.

The underlying problem?

Death has no concequence.

If people actually FEARED death, these sorts of things would quickly sort themselves out.

I mean, why not hang out in Andunor as an elf if all you need to worry about is being a bit weaker in a fight for the next 60 mins after you respawn somewhere safe and cozy?

[DM Rex]

People should fear death, regardless of being a surfacer, underdarker, or some very lost anthropomorphic marshmallow peep.

Anyone who notices any character that is careless with their given lives, or discusses death with zero weight, just let the DM Team know and we'll give them a gentle reminder.

Also there's the 24 hour rule. If you get killed somewhere, bugger off yeah? In all likelihood if you wander into an area that could reasonably be considered 'hostile' to what you're playing there is the expectation of conflict. It is possible for a drow to walk up to the palace gates of Cordor at night, but I wouldn't recommend it.

What would you rather have in a fantasy setting? an epic tale of battles, spellcasting and stakes or the story about how Francine is having another wish baby with Jenny while running their corner cafe and petting their favourite Gnoll Fluffles OwO.

I dislike that I had to read this.

But honestly threads like these are a bore. There's been about three of them in the past. And they all end up the same way. Just play, take the beatings, and you either prove yourself to be worth the trouble, or you realize you should probably stick to other turf.

[NauVaseline]

Second: Kuma seems to remember pretty accurately. The outcast vs goblin/udos mess was playing out since Andunor day 1 and it was House Vh'larra (who owned Xun'viir's future matron at the time) that was the prominent drow faction at the time.

Qintarra Vh'larra owned Karla Fateheart. Qintarra rolled, Qirovva took over, faction took off, good times were had. Mighty nostalgia

[Halibutthead]

oh, yeah. death sucks. but have you ever admitted defeat? that's awful!

[-slave]

So, it was long before Xun'viir where humans were allowed to be more present in Andunor.

When I joined Arelith back in 2017, it was at the behest of some friends of mine from other servers. There were a few of us, and I won't name specific names. Back in that time, Andunor was very much as 'Bow or Die' sort of a setting. If you were a human, outcast or no, they would probably try and collar you, and even if you didn't, they'd basically find any reason they could to kill you.

So a few of us non-affiliated humans banded together. I won't go into specifics, but some gnolls decided they were going to purge all the humans in the Underdark. It lead to some skirmishes, the gnolls died horrifically, and then all rolled because, despite being given a reasonable out of "Stop attacking humans on sight" the idea of losing was bad enough that they'd rather not play the characters.

So the humans were seen as killing off the gnolls and as being strong. So then house Arab'afin under Ches'riia and house Xal'rae, seeing the power these humans had, decided they wanted to get these humans on their side. They became more accepted, were given positions of greater prominence. And yes, more people began to roll up human outcasts because they had some support and weren't always being brutally PVPed for basically no reason.

And yes. I mean no reason. The number of times I had people come up to me to try and force slave RP only to be 24 houred was pretty powerful. Humans earned their spot, there became more and more of them, and suddenly, these groups couldn't put the lid back on that box. Humans had a place, and were there to stay.

I know a lot of people are mad about that, but it has a history actually built into the RP that happened before Xun'viir even existed. It's been ongoing for a while now.

[Ork]

I get where you're coming from but Xun'viir was founded in 2014.

Andunor always cycled between permitting Outcasts and demanding "papers" since its first iteration. The truth is that prior to Andunor, the UD was a dead zone. If Andunor is to violently persecute all "surface races", I'm certain we would revisit the dark days of old. Not because it's my opinion, but because it's historically supported.

[Chosen Son]

I sometimes feel that there is this underlying mindset of "If only those pesky outcasts had not been allowed to exist in Andunor, I would have been able to do "xyz"." Ignoring that those same players, playing different characters in Andunor are just as likely to have kicked the teeth in of individual characters/entire factions, as their outcasts eventually did. The idea of outcasts being disruptive to the powers that be in Andunor is a odd thing to be concerned about. In Andunor -every- pc has the potential to be disruptive to whatever establishment holds sway at that time, regardless of if outcasts are permitted or not. All outcasts do is add nuance, and diversity to the form the disruption takes.

[Gouge Away]

I sometimes feel that there is this underlying mindset of "If only those pesky outcasts had not been allowed to exist in Andunor, I would have been able to do "xyz"." Ignoring that those same players, playing different characters in Andunor are just as likely to have kicked the teeth in of individual characters/entire factions, as their outcasts eventually did. The idea of outcasts being disruptive to the powers that be in Andunor is a odd thing to be concerned about. In Andunor -every- pc has the potential to be disruptive to whatever establishment holds sway at that time, regardless of if outcasts are permitted or not. All outcasts do is add nuance, and diversity to the form the disruption takes.

Some of that and some jealousy since it can feel very constricting to play nonhuman races in Anundor, even more than the surface, as most groupings are based on race and there doesn't tend to be a lot of tolerance for going against the grain. I mean, you CAN go against the grain, but other players will tend to tune you out if you don't fit their idea of your chosen race's stereotype, even if it's in small ways.

Of course that can also be a plus when playing a nonhuman (built in RP you can jump right into, established racial groups are usually desperate for new members and very friendly and welcoming OOC) but I know the feeling of "why did I play this race?" when you see others having a lot more freedom to travel and associate and have ambitions your character can't.

[MrHishprung]

As someone who is familiar with both the settings of Menzoberranzan and Skullport, and who currently plays a Menzoberranyr living in Andunor, I can safely state that Andunor is less open to surface visitors than Menzoberranzan itself. Menzoberranzan is by lore very open to visitors, especially visitors who bring there money. These visitors are afforded few guarantees and can meet their end in the City of Spiders if they are not careful, but they are not required to prove themselves as being pariahs among their surface peers to simply go there to trade (Underdark, 2003, page 161). Menzoberranzan has even a few free npcs belonging to surface races who are permanent residents, such as Myrlyth Calask (human priest of Lathander, undercover as hairdresser), Myrip Minstrelwish (halfling thief who works as perfumer), Olosk Dhaulvin (dwarf fighter, arms dealer), and Symeera and the owner of Narbondel's Shadow who own inns that welcome human visitors (Menzoberranzan, 1992, page 42 and map).

Elves should FEAR the Underdark, not go there to shop and sing kumbaya around the fire with drow.

Albeit, in light of what I explained above, I find the general attitude toward surfacers in Andunor simply inconsistent and downright nonsensical, I do agree whole-heartedly with this point.

Even if there are some exceptions, as that tailor from Skullport mentioned above, I have found few, if any, references to an abundant presence of surface elves in the Underdark. I am not saying that a few exceptions cannot exist, they exist, and there are some in the lore in fact, but they do not seem any more significant than the presence of drow on the surface. Actually I would argue that the drow have at least Vhaerunite and Eilistraeean groups that actively pursue life on the surface, whereas the elves do not have anything of the kind. So these exceptions are in fact even less significant.

So it is fair to say that elves do not belong in the Underdark any more than the drow belong on the surface. The exceptions might probably be admitted in a multi-racial settlement like Andunor, but they certainly should not be many in my opinion, for the sake of the integrity of the setting, if anything else. And obviously their life should not be any easier than the life of a drow on the surface.

First, i tip my hat for your knowledge about UD. Most of these things were unfamiliar to me.

Now, elves in UD. There are some around Andunor, both slaves and free. My Xyrmoira was both of them. (moon elf that was enslaved by Sharrans, then willingly by Temple of DSeldarine. Currently free but tries to linger around Andunor). During my half year of playing mainly on her it was a literall rollercoaster. Week of normal, satisfying gameplay of proving myself chasing vision of being at least tolerated, then 2 weeks of manhunt and staying in shadows - a PvP fest.

I do not hide that Duvain was one of my inspiration to keep staying below as Xyr. Difference lies in circles i was "connected" with.

She was/is working with those who are willing to. She have friends and allies, both below and top. From drow, through mostrous races to humans - not many elves, if any. She likes drow (at some point it was an obsession that even made her hate herself of not being one, a good RP plot back then), have slight distaste to other elves. Other monstrous races are not problem for her either. Humans are 50/50, depends from their attitude to her.

Conflicts of course come, expected where you're in place you're not welcome. She doent mind insults, threatening... she's used to them. But, they are tiring and draining if one is going for too long - i hope we all can agreed on it. (and trust me i was not on winning side 99% of time). You will tell "If you so dont like it then go back to surface!", well... easy to say, she's equally not liked above as below. And redemption is not an option with what she gained, a "grey zone" at max.

Is she fun to play as? Of course, just have a distaste to jumping into PvP right from the start. But it cant be helped *Shrugs*
Is she fun to interact with? I hope so, i always like to receive tells how you feel when you RP with her.

People should fear death, regardless of being a surfacer, underdarker, or some very lost anthropomorphic marshmallow peep.

Anyone who notices any character that is careless with their given lives, or discusses death with zero weight, just let the DM Team know and we'll give them a gentle reminder.

Also there's the 24 hour rule. If you get killed somewhere, bugger off yeah? In all likelihood if you wander into an area that could reasonably be considered 'hostile' to what you're playing there is the expectation of conflict. It is possible for a drow to walk up to the palace gates of Cordor at night, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Not that im careless with my PC's death. But i'll be honest, if i had to RP every death of my elf, that would be the main plot of her.
After recent manhunt, i had a talk with DM about it asking for either intervention or suggestion how to solve it. Tells sent, expressed my and DM's worries. And agreement came out with some of the players. "Git gud" in PvP is not an option and cheap excuse to continue fighting.

Wanna play a surface Drow/Monster? You can do that but
*You'll have to rp your light sensitivity
*You yes, have to expect to be pvped, and pvped regularly as a 'monster'
*Find quarters -well- outside anywhere with a major npc presence
*And most of all, stay away from all settlments, entering only when absolutly neccesary, well disguised/stealthed/hidden, understanding that if the NPCs can see your character, they would likely try and kill it

I do plan to make one. And i feel it will be Xyrmoira 2.0

I've been one line hostiled more times than I can remember on the surface & my character wasn't even a monster race, it was a slave. I've walked through transitions in disguise without having my disguise broken and been insta-hostiled with no RP by groups just because I came from the same direction that hunted groups were in. I know of other slaves who have been minding their business completely and have had the same thing happen, not even inside a settlement, but on the road by goodly aligned characters.

But in general, I've always seen Andunor as being way more receptive to RP around 'visitors' who get caught than the surface in this regard. I've also a seen a lot of people say that evil has more options for RP than good does, but I don't see why. Plenty of people get captured, or taken by the UD, I probably only know of one person who plays a monster character that has been actually captured without getting insta-corpse bashed and RPed with on the surface in my entire time RPing in the UD.

I would have loved to get captured on my slave character. There is so much trauma in his life as a slave, that nobody has ever once bothered to even ask about during any surface dealings. So much rich RP potential for 'turning' or changing his mental state and who he trusts, character progression etc etc. None of that has ever seen the light of day.

I've noticed that too. I heard plenty of times of paladins captured and fell from grace into BG with fiend buddy or other "good ones". But never other way around, correct me if im wrong on that.
And i understand that slaves are potential spies, but i see no sense in killing them. What stunned me and my elf was exacly that. How do you want to encourage slaves to break themself free if you're making potential place for them even more hostile? That way they just give up on surface and do what they could to at least have better life below, even as the bad one. Of course there are exceptions, like everywhere. Fend them off from settlements, but offer help if you like.

Thats what i liked to respond, sorry for long post Love you all!