Improved expertise and apr

[Arigard]

I've been thinking about this for a while and one of the glaring issues with builds currently is the combination of improved expertise and APR. If you want to build a melee character that can basically wear down and other build over time and completely invalidates melee vs melee, then you simply just want to build an 11 apr monk dip, or monk heavy char with epic dodge that sits in I.E and just rollbaits for 20's. Because of your APR especially at the extreme level (11), you are almost guaranteed a 20 at least every other round statistically. This creates a style of play that really almost breaks the current system because it invalidates the AB/AC calculations and uses the auto 20 system in a way that is bordering on the extreme.

The real issue here is not that these characters can achieve high AC with epic dodge (which will likely take out any 20 in that round that can be used against them) but that on top of this, they can sit in improved expertise with no real negative because their build is based around doing this anyway. I.E is supposed to be something with a glaring trade off due to the AB reduction & on builds with 5-6 APR this does happen, because they simply aren't rolling enough to beat the system, but builds planning for this negate that AB issue by simply increasing their APR to a point that it rarely matters.

There are obviously some exceptions to this (Rangers/Spellswords) who do get a decent AB (into the high 40's), but irregardless when I.E is turned on, their AB drops to the high 30's and becomes auto roll territory anyway and the cycle continues. The issue is really that, if your build is hitting 40-42ab and then somehow still managing to connect more than a build with 50ab simply down to improved expertise & the fact you can pull 11APR and rely on roll-baiting even though you are sitting there with mid 30's AB unable to hit a barn door on a usual attack....it feels kinda lame & like the system is being cheesed.

My thoughts on the system that would instantly fix this would be to have improved expertise cap the amounts of APR you can have whilst using it. The RP behind it would be that to focus on the stance you need to use more of your attention than you would need to standard attacking. Monk dips clearly need to be looked at in terms of UBAB being achieved after 3 levels, but that still doesn't solve the problem of builds effectively being created to simply roll-bait the system by relying on 20s consistently from their APR.

A change like this would solve a number of problems.

1. It would solve the issue of making builds solely built around high APR and 20 roll-baiting.
2. It would still allow those builds to have those high APR, but they would need to rely on their base AC (which is usually still high into the mid 60's, or with EDodge). The builds that reach high AB with high APR get to see the benefit of having that AB progression, but they can't simply rely on auto out rolling opposition to 20s because of loaded statistics.
3. It would even the playing field a little in terms of builds that have two weapon fighting/apr but low base AB that benefit from having high ac and epic dodge on top. These builds already have massive benefits to defense, hitting 70-75 ac with EDODGE on top. Having no real reduction to their output due to their APR seems very broken imo.
4. It would lessen the impact of monk dips and the power increase it brings for simply dipping 3 levels in the class.
5. It would remove improved expertise as a tool to build around offense and exploit and place it as something that is actually used as it was intended (a high value trade off to get defense). It would still be a useful ability, especially for builds that have high base AB, but it would reduce the impact of those builds that can achieve everything across the board (High unhittable AC, Consistent AB output & E Dodge).
6. It would open up more interesting combinations than simply depending on monk weapons with monk dips because of the massive APR bonuses they bring, making them the defacto go to weapon for anything with monk in it.

[Dr. B]

I don't think this is necessary. I'm also not quite sure I see the problem--you're saying that these builds just rely on high AC and 20s, when in fact there are quarterstaff monk dip builds that get high AC but also very high AB that cut through high AC opponents like a hot knife through butter. Not sure if that makes the problem worse in your view, but I don't think a nerf is in order because name a build of this sort and it can probably be countered in one or more ways.

[Drowboy]

Shame there's no easy fix to builds not needing to weigh the options between a UMD dip for scrolls and monk levels, div levels, etc.

Anyway, I really don't think this is an issue for the same reasons dex PM's aren't. (This specifically)

[Arigard]

when in fact there are quarterstaff monk dip builds that get high AC but also very high AB that cut through high AC opponents like a hot knife through butter.

A high ac monk not in expertise will have low-mid 60's ac with E Dodge. That's still hit table, albeit not overly regularly. A high AC monk in improved expertise, sitting at 70+ AC with epic dodge will never be hit by 95% of melee characters out there (unless you are spamming true strike, in which case they can just run around for 6 seconds). if they are hit normally through a 20 their epic dodge will soak up their auto 20. They are rolling likely twice as many attacks per round as most characters.

The monk on the other hand can sit with terrible AB in the knowledge that they are A) un-hittable and B) will roll more 20's due to their APR. It's simply a numbers game that ends up breaking the whole system when taken to the extreme.

If you don't see the issue with this combination, then you clearly haven't built, or fought builds that rely on this tactic. It's almost impossible to hit them from a melee perspective on pretty much any build outside of perhaps a CoT in divine wrath and you know as the monk that the numbers are on your side regardless of the fact you might be sitting at 35ab.

because name a build of this sort and it can probably be countered in one or more ways.

Any build can ultimately be countered, that isn't an argument that something is, or isn't breaking the system. Any mundane build vs a roll-bait monk build with quarterstaff will lose 9/10 times simply down to the statistics of the way the APR and auto 20 works. It's just a numbers game at that point. Their concealment is un-removable and their SR stops most scrolls from being useful (this can also be paired with racial SR bonuses also if not heavy monk). The only really way to get around them is flat-footing via HIPS, which has now been reduced to a point that it is nowhere near as damaging in a straight up fight.

But regardless of the above, the issue is with gaming the system and building around having a char that has what is in effect an AB that cannot hit anything on the stat sheet (somewhere in the 30s), but somehow outputs more dmg versus other characters due to to roll-baiting for 20s and APR.

[Ork]

LOL

[Seven Sons of Sin]

LOL

ork what's funny what am I not seeing

[Ork]

This is the same issue with melee PMs back in the day. If a build has to fish for 20s, they can be effectively ignored. Your healing can always exceed their damage output. Back in the day you could hit em with timestop to flat foot and take care of business, but we nerfed that.

I just think it's a non-issue.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

There seems to be some confusion here. The main meta for quarterstaff builds is either spellsword/fighter/monk or ranger/fighter/monk with little variation. Neither of those builds can get Epic Dodge and if you tried to tweak them so they did they would probably become worthless as a DPS. These builds rarely rely on "Fishing for 20's" except when they fight an actual majority level monk with Epic Dodge. They both have decent enough AB and they rarely even need to turn on Improved Expertise because they melt most enemies in a flurry or two. What makes them overpowered isn't just the APR but the main class features of spellsword and ranger combined with that. Spellsword gets two elemental imbues at level 21 and can cast level 9 spells. Ranger gets +4-5 Blade Thirst for rapid health stealing and HiPS in the wilderness.. If either of those builds quaffs a true strike potion and hits you when flat footed you're pretty much done for. A majority level monk can get high AC and Epic Dodge and try to "fish for 20's" but with their low AB they are mostly only good as a tank and they will struggle to bring someone down as quickly as a spellmonk or ranger/monk would.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Yeah high ac builds rolling for 20s are a joke. Gives you more time to use alternate tools like lore gonnes or spellls from allies, etc.

Also i can theory craft memes with insanely good ab with no true strike required if excessive reliance on untouchable ac becomes too popular or even just play a caster.

[Jack Oat]

The main premise of this post-- that you can "just sit in Improved Expertise to rollbait 20s and magically win fights eventually"-- is inherently incorrect due to the ability to use heal kits and potions in combat. There's nothing wrong with the meta in that regard.

In other words, the arguments here are flawed and wrong.

[Arigard]

The main premise of this post-- that you can "just sit in Improved Expertise to rollbait 20s and magically win fights eventually"-- is inherently incorrect due to the ability to use heal kits and potions in combat. There's nothing wrong with the meta in that regard.

Healing kits flatfoot you and not every class has enough heal in their build to rely on them. If you want to sit flatfooted against an 11APR character go ahead I guess? Healing pots? Sure. I guess if you want to be burning gold 24/7. If we're going by that logic, pretty much anything in the game that does damage shouldn't be discussed because you can technically heal pot through anything. That's a straw-man right there. I guess no character should ever die then because of heal pots?

Roll-baiting is an incredibly lame state of affairs and being able to take 3 levels in monk and then suddenly overnight have almost double the amounts of APR has knock on effects for a bunch of different areas of the mechanics.

This thread wasn't about "Oh you can be god tier unkillable, blah blah blah". It was about should you be able to stick on a +10 AC modifier and have a guaranteed chance of rolling to hit more than twice that of most characters simply because of a 10% dip in your leveling progression. Something that is supposed to be a low percentage chance becomes a pretty much guaranteed output due to APR regardless of base AB. I don't see a problem with that when you are actually using your base AB to hit someone, but when you're relying on tanking your AB to the point you wouldn't hit a barn door in the knowledge that to 95% of characters out there you can only be hit on a 20 and are un-critable (because the crit confirm does not allow auto 20's) and are still getting almost a guaranteed connect every two rounds, that seems pretty lame to me.

I've seen it be an issue in multiple situations even recently. Is it a go to tactic to ROFLstomp everything before you? No. But that's not what this thread is about. It's about at a fundamental level is knowing that simply because you have more APR, you can sit in stances like expertise/i.e and guarantee damage output on a consistent basis lame simply because of roll-baiting?

IMO yes and it stretches the d20 system to the extreme. If people don't agree, that's fine, but I've seen this happen and have built characters that can do this & seen it be very effective in certain situations, especially when you have two characters facing off neither of whom can hit each other and one can connect every other round guaranteed simply due to a dip and nothing else, it feels incredibly cheap. Roll-baiting happens & i've seen it be very frustrating as a game mechanic to people, so I fail to see how this issue is either 'wrong or flawed'.

There are glaring issues with monk dips for a number of reasons and getting the extra APR so easily is definitely one of them. So either monk dips need to be looked at in some way (I very much hope this is the case), or other mechanics need to be modified if that isn't going to happen.

[Ork]

Let's do some maths. What is the actual probability you roll a 20 at least once over 10 attempts. First we'll find the chance of not hitting at all over those ten attempts. 19/20 is the chance of missing right? so over 10 attempts its (19/20)^10 = .5987 or a 60% chance. That means that we have about a 40% chance of rolling a hit over a single round.

That's less than 50% chance a hit each round you're engaged. If you can't out heal that, . . you're really in trouble. Or, simply disengage. Maybe your build isn't capable of bringing down that opponent but others are - and that's okay.

[dallion43]

Freedom of movement is breachable on Arelith. Arelith has a variety of very, very annoying non-SR area spells. Combine that with TS, and to say the least, one have a fighting chance. Timing, of course.
Taunt. You don't need much to overcome a ~8conc. Combine with Scurvy Cur guide on how to be OP.
Damage shield scrolls & amuls. Depending on the build, this is good vs apr. (armor of Immo on some builds).
Why specific builds need consumables, SPs investment or other methods to counter a specific build?
Because of rock, paper, scissors concept, I believe.

If one seeks a omni-pupik build to 1vs1 situations, I recommend looking into barb post lore variations. Yes, some consumables are required still.

P.C
Monk dips are good, they are a core for many builds, etc. So are Divine dips. Not long ago there was a very good explanation why divine dip is actually a trade in. I can't compare to the pro that wrote that, so I will just add that monk dip is a trade in as well.
P.C.C
I do humbly recommend not to skip on heal SPs on most builds unless you have shares in pot production, or simply a lot of time on your hands.

[Arigard]

Why does every thread on this forum end up with the response "Clearly you made this because you have trouble/are mad etc, here's what you do - theory-craft random condescending post".

This thread has nothing to do with "This build beat my build" or whatever. I understand there are counters to pretty much any obstacle in this game, as I've said multiple times during this thread. It is about a mechanic that when pushed to the extreme undermines the d20 system.

I have a level 30 Spellsword/Monk that gets stupid AC and can benefit from 10 APR. I am not invested in this discussion because I'm trying to protect, or beat some kind of build. This is about monk dips enabling broken mechanics at the fundamental level. Quit with all this d**& flinging "U must be bad lol just do this" agenda please and let's have an actual logical discussion about the mechanics.

I'm glad you brought up the maths perhaps it will help illustrate the issue here with monk dips:

Character A has 47 ab with 5 APR (with haste). Character B has 66 ac in expertise with 10 APR (with haste) but not enough AB to hit character A except on a nat 20.

Character A can hit on their first attack naturally on a 19 or a 20. Character B can only hit on 20 rolls using their APR.

In a round Character A has 1st 0.9% x 0.95 x 0.95 x 0.95 x 0.9 (I believe the haste attack is made at full ab?) = 0.69 chance to miss in a round. That's a 31% chance to hit and this character can actually hit the opposing character naturally from his base AB on its first attack.

Character B has 10 APR 0.95 x 0.95... etc. 10 times with flurry and haste. That's a miss chance of 60% rounded up. A hit chance of 40%.

The character that can ACTUALLY hit the AC of the opposition (on the first attack of 19 or 20) has a lower chance of actually hitting than the character that CANNOT hit the other characters AC at all. This just seems wrong on a fundamental level. I'm even being nice here and dropping the AC of the monk based char so the opposition can actually hit them within their range, if built right you can easily build for 70+ in improved expertise.

Please tell me, this isn't a ridiculous situation, the only reason for which exists on a wide-scale level is due to monk dips. If you think a 40% chance to hit someone every round isn't beneficial, or useful in any way, then I don't really know what to tell you. Especially when that chance only jumps up because someone decided to build in a 3 monk dip, which is by far one of the most overpowered dips out there currently and when you compare it to other mundanes that have a much less chance when they cannot hit an opponent.

The overarching point of this thread is that when you have the percentages in your favour due to APR, turning on improved expertise really isn't the doubled edged sword it is supposed to be because it doesn't scale in the way it is supposed to with less APR characters because the amount of times you are able to roll the dice massively skews the chance in your favor regardless. if two characters cannot hit each other, the one with a monk dip will be doing more dmg a lot more regularly, regardless if their base AB is much lower than their opposition and it's reliable damage output.

It is just one of the many elements that are grossly overpowered by allowing 3 level unrestricted monk dips in Arelith. There are no trade ins that balance out the bonus you get from monk dips. Monk characters are easy to gear, there's a proliferation of dex/wisdom items available and they get perhaps the most base benefits of any dip from core stats without any necessary feat investment. (evasion, tumble, disc, will saves, flurry, wisdom AC, Monk UBAB).

TLDR this shits broken on a mechanical level. Please look at it. I'm saying this having built at least 4-5 characters to 30 with monk in their builds. At least look into the UBAB progression because it creates extremely skewed situations from a 3 level dip. This might not be as large an issue as perhaps I consider it to be, but to me personally, it seems a little lame that you can be in a situation where you have more consistent reliable chance of hitting someone else irregardless of what you AB is simply down to the monk dip.

[Nevrus]

For those wondering how to hit these AC god monk dips, the answer is two-hand Divine Champion 20. Divine Wrath gives you +9 attack at that point, which when combined with enhancement bonus of your weapon, two-hand bonus, and easily accessible potions, gets you pretty close to attack cap. And you WILL do more DPS at that point against non-spellswords. (Spellswords throw the entire thing off)

[Ork]

I think you're overstating the danger of 40% chance to hit a round. If you do 50 damage a hit, that's 20 damage per round. Completely negligible. If you die from 20 damage per round, nerfing monk dips won't help you.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

The fact that some builds are rocking 70+ AC to me is just an argument in favor of keeping high APR builds. Sure we could nerf monk UBAB into the ground but those 70+ AC builds are still going to have 70+ AC and some of them will even have crit immunity and/or epic damage reduction III. Some people might even throw Epic Dodge on there too.

I've also played a Spellmonk, it is a very strong build, but it is not without weaknesses. The saves are garbage and it is total dispel bait. It also takes a lot more damage from damage shields due to the high APR. I do think too many people are playing quarterstaff builds but I don't think nerfing them is the solution. I'd rather see more melee options added to encourage people to use other less common weapons like katanas or bastard swords.

[Baron Saturday]

I think you're overstating the danger of 40% chance to hit a round. If you do 50 damage a hit, that's 20 damage per round. Completely negligible. If you die from 20 damage per round, nerfing monk dips won't help you.

50 damage a hit may be a stretch, honestly, especially once defensive essences are factored in. For a dex build, I'd say 20-30 would be more accurate. Even that might be high, but just to run with it, that means 8-12 damage a round, on average. Assuming a character with a moderate HP pool of 480, that's 4-6 MINUTES to die, even if the character does nothing to heal.

If we use the 31% chance to hit/round and assume that this (likely strength-based?) character is hitting for ~50, then they actually end up doing 15.5 avg damage/round, winning the war of attrition.

Personally? I would take a 5 minute brainless pvp bashfest as a lovely opportunity for some tense combat rp.

[Dr. B]

Same. High AC low damage opponents give you a chance to talk and emote during combat. #unnerf monks #unnerf PM

[Jencent]

I can understand position of TS, and he has some point in words. But... This builds, what he talks about have really bad damage output, even with 11ARP and 40% chance to hit in every turn. I had a build which can just ignor this minor damage and just walk away (Rog/DD/PDK). And some builds can just melt you even with e-dodge. Barb/wm have 50+ Ab and insane damage with huge HP chunk and damage reduce. This bulds can just laugh in your face, and after smash your head.

Till we have counter-builds - all is fine. ATM my main cahracter can be easely killed with this monks, but i'm not complaining about it, because i know, someone other can easely kill him.

I'm right, or i'm right?