Loremaster Feedback Megathread

[Chosen Son]

Will take time for people to figure out possible uses for the class, but for example Fighter 16/WM 7/Loremaster 7 gives some kind of indication to what might be useful. That it gets +14 bonus lore towards using mord scrolls, (that it also casts as cl 21 not 17) is very nice in a dispel bait meta, and Word of faith firing as a CL 17 spell is helpful as well. Loremaster buffing barkskin wands to 5 ac, and the knowlage of ac giving one means you lose 1 effective ac to non cross classes tumble.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

Will take time for people to figure out possible uses for the class, but for example Fighter 16/WM 7/Loremaster 7 gives some kind of indication to what might be useful. That it gets +14 bonus lore towards using mord scrolls, (that it also casts as cl 21 not 17) is very nice in a dispel bait meta, and Word of faith firing as a CL 17 spell is helpful as well. Loremaster buffing barkskin wands to 5 ac, and the knowlage of ac giving one means you lose 1 effective ac to non cross classes tumble.

Not to single you out Chosen -- it is good you bring this to the table -- but this is the kind of class combination I personally have difficulty rationalizing in this discussion.

How can a character be a Weapon Master AND a Lore Master? In having Mastery of a field of interest a player (an their character IC) is choosing to be dedicating themselves in a direction. Just because you can fit Weaponmaster and Loremaster together in within thirty levels, should you? Should you be allowed to?

I think it is healthy within the design of a class like this to go beyond the numbers and define what they cannot do - and what is not allowed.

In my opinion, a loremaster should not become, or be allowed to become, a "Jack of all Trades" or Dilettante. It belittles the concept to allow free reign.

It is part of a Druid's core concept not to wield iron. In my opinion, a Loremaster should have core concepts too.

[Red_Wharf]

...but this is the kind of class combination I personally have difficulty rationalizing in this discussion.

In having Mastery of a field of interest a player (an their character IC) is choosing to be dedicating themselves in a direction.

I'm not a fan of that kind of gatekeeping, and I'm just going to point you out to these secrets a Loremaster can learn, which are totally Weaponmaster territory:

[Secret Knowledge of Weapon Trick]
The ability to know just when and where to strike is not purely the province of an experienced fighter, but can also be learned by studying the application of forces and physiology. Common in fencing, it can also be applied to a number of other weapons. By taking this approach a Loremaster can provide themselves a modest advantage in combat. (+1 AB)

[Secret Knowledge of Avoidance]
While some avoid attacks with a heightened instinct for survival or altertness to any attack, the skilled Loremaster is often able to stay two steps ahead of any impending theat; a knowledge of Newtonian Physics that allows them to correctly judge, almost immediately, the appropriate response to any unexpected change of physical circumstances. (+2 Reflex Save)

[Secret Knowledge of Dodge Trick]
When one is aware of an attack, it is possible to maneuver in order to avoid it. A Loremaster skilled in this secret is able to recognise the common themes in a number of different defensive stances and tactics, and apply them holistically in a wide-variety of combat situations. (+1 Dodge AC)

[Chosen Son]

Lore/swordmasters of Hoeth are both powerful swordmasters and learned sages, loremasters with moderately powerful mages too. So the concept exists. I would also argue that spellsword is also a highly learned/studious warrior, with the magic they pair their swordcraft with at least as challenging as loremaster studies. warrior sage is also a big trip to my understanding in asian stories.

I also very much like anything that lets mundane characters have easier access to mord scrolls

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

...but this is the kind of class combination I personally have difficulty rationalizing in this discussion.

In having Mastery of a field of interest a player (an their character IC) is choosing to be dedicating themselves in a direction.

I'm not a fan of that kind of gatekeeping, and I'm just going to point you out to these secrets a Loremaster can learn, which are totally Weaponmaster territory:

[Secret Knowledge of Weapon Trick]
The ability to know just when and where to strike is not purely the province of an experienced fighter, but can also be learned by studying the application of forces and physiology. Common in fencing, it can also be applied to a number of other weapons. By taking this approach a Loremaster can provide themselves a modest advantage in combat. (+1 AB)

[Secret Knowledge of Avoidance]
While some avoid attacks with a heightened instinct for survival or altertness to any attack, the skilled Loremaster is often able to stay two steps ahead of any impending theat; a knowledge of Newtonian Physics that allows them to correctly judge, almost immediately, the appropriate response to any unexpected change of physical circumstances. (+2 Reflex Save)

[Secret Knowledge of Dodge Trick]
When one is aware of an attack, it is possible to maneuver in order to avoid it. A Loremaster skilled in this secret is able to recognise the common themes in a number of different defensive stances and tactics, and apply them holistically in a wide-variety of combat situations. (+1 Dodge AC)

I will readily accept those are martial or monkish skills.

I put it to you a Loremaster would willingly teach them to a second PC -- who WAS a Weaponmaster. But they would not be a Weaponmaster themselves.

Ideally these Secrets need to be Scribable / possessable, with the Loremaster able to temporarily pass on these benefits to OTHERS for a mutually beneficial gain (I give you insight into a secret / you protect me). A Sensei-Pupil, Master-Apprentice, Doctore-Gladiator arrangement.

If there are no limitations to Loremaster, it is in danger of becoming a capstone class (like Kensai was) -- which I am sure is a million miles away from the concept intentions.

[Quidix]

Could we not make commoners any more of the crafting vault bot they already are?

Some people enjoy crafting roleplay, and I think it's great if mechanics can encourage all styles of play.

Loremaster if open to everyone else, and commoners seem to be getting excluded from taking the class (which I can be okay with, although I personally think it would have been a thematic fit). As such, it feels reasonable that they can get another way to access a crafting specific feat which is very relevant to them. Or just make it a general Epic Feat, or also make it a Specialist feat.

[AstralUniverse]

The idea of one character capable of crafting all sorts of items in their trade, regardless of class etc, is a bit questionable in my opinion, but it would be alright if the character is not a commoner that's heavily focused on crafting and is better than everyone at it. Adding this on top... I dont know. I may change my mind on this one, to be honest, but that's my current logic.

And to be fair, I did say earlier in this thread (at the first iteration of the class) that opening it for commoners would be cool, mostly from languages perspective. But then the devs started adding things and shaping it into being actually useful in Arelith terms and it splits away from the commoner type of RP much much more focused into the adventurer type. I wouldnt mind a commoner-only version of this class that would be mostly a restricted version that is excluded from anything adventure related. I do not want to see commoners being better scrolls/wands users than any adventurer what so ever.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Id put it forward that loremasters shouldnt get anything as a class by default. But instead give them a set number of bonus feats EVERY level that are selectable by only loremasters.

For example if you wanted to be a scroll master youd have to select feats or a tree of feats per level

If you wanted to be a sword master you have a feat tree.

It may be a difficult proposition. But I'm a fan of the idea that you dedicate both mechanically and lorewise into certain aspects of the class. As well as give it a feeling of a jack of all trades without making it inherantly a jack of all trades.

[CrystalRL]

It seems like an oversight that loremasters aren't included as a valid class for scribe scroll ^^

[gix gix]

I am quite curious and almost frustrated on the first reading of the new update for loremasters.

Not about LM but more of the gift of crafting, which makes use for commoners seemingly useless.

Ofc, commoners can specialice more trades but Loremaster can obtain higher daily crafting points, receive XP from writs and everything and go out for mining, also benefits from that.

I hope for some comments that investing the 100hrs of hours on the commoner will be not in vain once the LM will get released.


Not to say i really like the concept of a LM just the comparing makes me sad.

[Nagwag]

Tbh, by the time this class gets life, just remove the class/race restriction on recipes completely. No point at all for them to exist now.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

Live on Next reset
===============
(PGCC Only)
From Zaphiel
===========
Loremaster Changes:
Skill Changes:
- Hide, move silently, pickpocket, taunt, set trap, bluff and intimidate removed from class skill list.

Feat Changes:
Secret Knowledge of Artisan:
- Now bypasses race restriction(s) on recipes as well. (Only was class restriction(s) before.)

Secret Knowledge of Ley Lines:
- Renamed to Secret Knowledge of Teleportation.

New Secrets:
Secret Knowledge of the Mechanical Animator:
- This feat allows you to make golems.

Secret Knowledge of the Explorer:
- This feat allows you to gain 100% more adventure experience from exploration and portal discoveries.

Secret Knowledge of Gathering:
- This feat allows you to gain 25% more resource from plants, woods, common tier ores and minerals. This effect reduced to 10% if gathering high tier ores or minerals. Minumum of 1 extra resource is guaranteed.

Secret Knowledge of Crafting:
- This feat allows you to add your skill ranks and bonuses on lore divided by 5 to your crafting points. Calculation is (Base Lore skill ranks + Skill Focus + Epic Skill Focus + base int mod. + Loremaster's Knowledge) / 5.

Secret Knowledge Of:

Maybe remove the Of and make Secret Knowledge: [XXXXXX]

This would allow more characters for more evocative names, and the of is repetitious.

Nomenclature Varies between...

Animator, Explorer [Titles] AND Gathering, Crafting [Fields of Expertise]

Is this intentional? Or should the Secret Knowledges be consistent -- I would suggest it is more about the field being discovered than the person doing the discovering.

Secret Knowledge of Gathering:

Does this stack with Gathering tools? Are all Gathering tools functioning and working?

Secret Knowledge of Crafting:

* From personal experience, a PC with high INT (which we might assume many Loremasters might be) already have surplus skill points thrown into Craft Mastery. is this necessary?

* Does this impinge upon the creative space of a Commoner / Specialist? [Bad Idea? - big concern here!]

(I could imagine many a Commoner working for a Loremaster on a dig-site to aid the "digging away" of debris over a tomb, whilst the Loremaster stands by, consulting his lore, waiting excitedly and impatiently for them to finish the labour -- not getting his or her own hands dirty. A classic gentleman explorer? If having to dig through a "Lore site" ever becomes a thing -- this would allow Loremasters and Commoners to work better together?)

Secret Knowledge of the Explorer:

* XP rates for discovery and level gains are already generous. Will this be relegated to being a poor pick? (You effectively waste a Secret?) Is there not something else that could be considered that is more evocative of being an explorer beyond XP gain?

(IDEA! This strikes me as an IDEAL candidate for a Secret that has hidden effects within the gameworld).

Secret Knowledge of the Mechanical Animator:

Maybe rename - Secret Knowledge: Golemancy?

IDEA -- Secrets that have secret gameworld effects!

* Create Secrets with modest game mechanic effects.
* Those Secrets also have hidden game world effects.

The Loremaster is a discover of Secrets -- so keep some of their benefits & interactions with places, items, NPC's hidden and unrevealed. Don't place all your creative cards on the table at class creation -- bear in mind what the future for the class holds, as they delve into the past.

Create this past.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I thought golem-making was such a pointless endeavour now because of how weak golems are, compared to the time/gold required to make them?

Why would I want to take that as a secret?

[NMan7496]

My big concern with the Secret Knowledge of the Artisan, as it stands, is that some really nice racial weapons, namely moonblades, have low UMD requirements.
So, with this, anyone could get their hands on and use a moonblade really easily and have a runic, pre-keened, +4 weapon. I think bumping racial weapons' UMD requirement to 45+ would solve this easily without impacting the race the weapon was intended for at all.

[Irongron]

My big concern with the Secret Knowledge of the Artisan, as it stands, is that some really nice racial weapons, namely moonblades, have low UMD requirements.
So, with this, anyone could get their hands on and use a moonblade really easily and have a runic, pre-keened, +4 weapon. I think bumping racial weapons' UMD requirement to 45+ would solve this easily without impacting the race the weapon was intended for at all.

I'll take a look at the UMD requirements.

[Quidix]

Feat Changes:
Secret Knowledge of Artisan:
- Now bypasses race restriction(s) on recipes as well. (Only was class restriction(s) before.)

Secret Knowledge of Crafting:
- This feat allows you to add your skill ranks and bonuses on lore divided by 5 to your crafting points. Calculation is (Base Lore skill ranks + Skill Focus + Epic Skill Focus + base int mod. + Loremaster's Knowledge) / 5."

With this update Loremasters will be the new masters of crafting. Bypassing class and race restriction is huge, and 84 Crafting Points is still a lot [60+10+14]. Several racial and class crafts are in high demand.

I'm not actually averse to these boons, but I think they need tuning:

• 4 Loremaster levels is now enough to become a master crafter (better than commoner I'd argue) - this feels like an incredibly low level of investment required
• "Bypassing class" and "bypassing race" should be two separate secrets as these are the most coveted type of crafting feats I can think of (in my mind this is the holy grail of what a crafter wants)
• Can "Secret Knowledge of Artisan" be given further restrictions? Eg require "SF Craft Mastery" + "ESF Craft Mastery" + "8 levels of Loremaster"?
• Why can't a class that gives up all combat prowess (commoner), be given similar crafting perks? Mainly the recipe access.

In short - I'm actually fine with Loremaster being positioned as a crafting class and it not being accessible to commoners. However, I think it must require some proper investment to get the most important perks (rather than a small dip which also has other bonuses).

[Baron Saturday]

Secret Knowledge of the Explorer:
- This feat allows you to gain 100% more adventure experience from exploration and portal discoveries.

Since this becomes obsolete at level 30, perhaps it could also give the ranger bonus of fully exploring previously visited areas?

[NMan7496]

Feat Changes:
Secret Knowledge of Artisan:
- Now bypasses race restriction(s) on recipes as well. (Only was class restriction(s) before.)

Secret Knowledge of Crafting:
- This feat allows you to add your skill ranks and bonuses on lore divided by 5 to your crafting points. Calculation is (Base Lore skill ranks + Skill Focus + Epic Skill Focus + base int mod. + Loremaster's Knowledge) / 5."

With this update Loremasters will be the new masters of crafting. Bypassing class and race restriction is huge, and 84 Crafting Points is still a lot [60+10+14]. Several racial and class crafts are in high demand.

I'm not actually averse to these boons, but I think they need tuning:

• 4 Loremaster levels is now enough to become a master crafter (better than commoner I'd argue) - this feels like an incredibly low level of investment required
• "Bypassing class" and "bypassing race" should be two separate secrets as these are the most coveted type of crafting feats I can think of (in my mind this is the holy grail of what a crafter wants)
• Can "Secret Knowledge of Artisan" be given further restrictions? Eg require "SF Craft Mastery" + "ESF Craft Mastery" + "8 levels of Loremaster"?
• Why can't a class that gives up all combat prowess (commoner), be given similar crafting perks? Mainly the recipe access.

In short - I'm actually fine with Loremaster being positioned as a crafting class and it not being accessible to commoners. However, I think it must require some proper investment to get the most important perks (rather than a small dip which also has other bonuses).

I agree, there should be a significant level requirement for the crafting secrets (6, if they split, 8 if they don't).

Also, assuming my math is right, you could actually get upwards of 122 crafting points with 10 Loremaster, gift of crafting, maxed out Lore & Craft Mastery, SF & ESF Craft Mastery & Lore, and 40 INT.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Secret Knowledge of the Explorer:
- This feat allows you to gain 100% more adventure experience from exploration and portal discoveries.

Since this becomes obsolete at level 30, perhaps it could also give the ranger bonus of fully exploring previously visited areas?

And/or Shadow Doors, and other secret portals.

[NMan7496]

Secret Knowledge of the Explorer:
- This feat allows you to gain 100% more adventure experience from exploration and portal discoveries.

Since this becomes obsolete at level 30, perhaps it could also give the ranger bonus of fully exploring previously visited areas?

And/or Shadow Doors, and other secret portals.

Yeah, just double adventure xp seems kinda lackluster, especially since adventure xp is already so easy to get.

Access to shadow doors and/or pre-explored wilderness areas would make this much more worthwhile.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

The class feels less and less like a loremaster, and more like a jack-of-all-trades. Could it be renamed?

I'm a bit disappointed in the class. When it was first announced I was excited. People even pinged me that they made a class fitting my character, who spends a lot of time writing down history and handling books and records. My title in the settlement I'm in is even "Loremaster."

The class has shifted further and further away from something a caster would crossclass into, especially now that hide/ms was removed. It no longer is a class that could compete with ranger, bard, or rogue in terms of crossclassing for skills. Which is fine if that is the vision for what the class is. But to exclude casters from being loremasters is disappointing, since a lot of the big RP loremasters are casters.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

The class feels less and less like a loremaster, and more like a jack-of-all-trades. Could it be renamed?

I'm a bit disappointed in the class. When it was first announced I was excited. People even pinged me that they made a class fitting my character, who spends a lot of time writing down history and handling books and records. My title in the settlement I'm in is even "Loremaster."

The class has shifted further and further away from something a caster would crossclass into, especially now that hide/ms was removed. It no longer is a class that could compete with ranger, bard, or rogue in terms of crossclassing for skills. Which is fine if that is the vision for what the class is. But to exclude casters from being loremasters is disappointing, since a lot of the big RP loremasters are casters.

How are spellcasters excluded?

[Quidix]

The class feels less and less like a loremaster, and more like a jack-of-all-trades. Could it be renamed?

I'm a bit disappointed in the class. When it was first announced I was excited. People even pinged me that they made a class fitting my character, who spends a lot of time writing down history and handling books and records. My title in the settlement I'm in is even "Loremaster."

The class has shifted further and further away from something a caster would crossclass into, especially now that hide/ms was removed. It no longer is a class that could compete with ranger, bard, or rogue in terms of crossclassing for skills. Which is fine if that is the vision for what the class is. But to exclude casters from being loremasters is disappointing, since a lot of the big RP loremasters are casters.

I do agree with this sentiment. I like the core class, but now so many different things have been added.

My view is that separating it into different paths would feel it much more coherent and avoids many of the issues:
- Forgotten Lore of the Caster / Scrolls
- Forgotten Lore of the Bard
- Forgotten Lore of the Fighter
- Forgotten Lore of the Crafter

[NMan7496]

The class feels less and less like a loremaster, and more like a jack-of-all-trades. Could it be renamed?

I'm a bit disappointed in the class. When it was first announced I was excited. People even pinged me that they made a class fitting my character, who spends a lot of time writing down history and handling books and records. My title in the settlement I'm in is even "Loremaster."

The class has shifted further and further away from something a caster would crossclass into, especially now that hide/ms was removed. It no longer is a class that could compete with ranger, bard, or rogue in terms of crossclassing for skills. Which is fine if that is the vision for what the class is. But to exclude casters from being loremasters is disappointing, since a lot of the big RP loremasters are casters.

How are spellcasters excluded?

There being absolutely zero CL increase excludes casters pretty badly. Even a +3 over 10 levels, to put them on par with a 23/4/3, would be acceptable, or even trading out the wand and scroll progression for CL would be a good trade.

I do agree with this sentiment. I like the core class, but now so many different things have been added.

My view is that separating it into different paths would feel it much more coherent and avoids many of the issues:
- Forgotten Lore of the Caster / Scrolls
- Forgotten Lore of the Bard
- Forgotten Lore of the Fighter
- Forgotten Lore of the Caster

I like the idea of adding a variety of paths to it to tailor the specific breed of Loremaster to the character. I would love for my Wizard to be the linguistics master that the Loremaster is, but I could really care less about the scrolls and wands as a primary caster, and I would gladly trade that for even a little bit of CL.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

It's more than no caster levels. The big offerings of the Loremaster class are watered-down versions of caster spell focus investment, either GSF or ESF abilities. In which case a caster would be better off just taking the real version.

As something to use as a minor crossclass, Loremaster doesn't work with casters because it doesn't have any of the skills casters want when they crossclass into something else. It's not competitive with bard, rogue, or ranger.

So casters won't take it as a major class because there's no caster class progression, and casters won't take it for a minor crossclass because it doesn't offer anything casters want. The class seems more and more like it's being balanced around non-magic characters. Which is fine, it has a lot of unique things it can offer mundane characters who want to do magical things. But it doesn't really seem like a Loremaster.