Loremaster Feedback Megathread

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

It seems the class has become more Artificer than Loremaster at this point, you could probably split it down the middle and make the two classes with relative ease.

Artificer gets the wand bonus, the crafting secret (minus the racial locked items), Lore to crafting and a choice of either Celestial/Demonic/Abyssial or Draconic as a bonus language. Requires 2nd level casting, 1/2 caster level.

Loremaster gets the languages, the scroll bonus and a tiered secrets rather than a huge pool. Requires Skill focus: Lore.

Artificer: That was my first impression too when the Wand / Scroll elements were revealed. It struck me as very Dwarven akin to a Runemaster (if memory vaguely serves) from the Rolemaster RPG. Damn I'm old.

[AstralUniverse]

Commoners get no bonus to Crafting Points. They do get +2 Trade Skill Points per level. Source: high-level commoner.

This is precisely the issue, and why a commoner should never have an access to this feat imo. If it were crafting points, well, that's mostly just time consumption and does not affect in just how many trades you can craft high end gear. Now, because it is Trade Skill points, combining this with class/race bypass results in a single character that can make way, WAY too many types of limited end-game racial items. I'm getting the impression that the devs are well aware of this issue, and that's probably why loremasters get a feat for bonus crafting points, rather than trade skill points (which would actually make more sense thematically, ironically enough).

[Rowlind Salem]

Seems a bit silly that the best crafters around have to be loremasters. They know the secretest secrets of the elves, the gnomes, the orog, the drow and so on and so on.

Maybe it should be more restrictive and allow you to pick a race and/or class that you may now craft as if you were. Otherwise it seems they have learned way more than just one secret..

very smart idea. perhaps the language of the race in question should be mastered before they are allowed to craft said items?

[Frailman]

Secret Knowledge of the Mechanical Animator:
- This feat allows you to make golems.

Kinda bait feat. Golems are trash. The good thing about GSF Transmutation is that golems arent why you take it.

I like there being worse options that exist for flavor.

I frequently do things like drop discipline in favor of bluff/set trap/pick pocket. I enjoy being able to gimp for flavor if it's fitting for the char.

[Nagwag]

The idea of letting them choose ONE race or class to unlock their restriction per secret used seems way more logical, as giving them the multiple secrets of ALL races and classes with one single feat.

(It would, of course, still flood the UD with moonblades and chain with a 3 lvl dip, but as seem to be intended ... )

[AstralUniverse]

Secret Knowledge of the Mechanical Animator:
- This feat allows you to make golems.

Kinda bait feat. Golems are trash. The good thing about GSF Transmutation is that golems arent why you take it.

I like there being worse options that exist for flavor.

I frequently do things like drop discipline in favor of bluff/set trap/pick pocket. I enjoy being able to gimp for flavor if it's fitting for the char.

At least bluff and traps are useful. Golems are completely useless, and no one will pick that feat except PCs who dont already know golems are useless.

[Aldros]

This class is a great addition but I have one big concern with it. It has been stated several times already but I think that the devs should reconsider turning the loremaster class into a crafting bot. I feel it is a missed opportunity flavorwise for the class and also makes commoners redundant.

My suggestion is to axe the secret that gives crafting points and change back the secret that gives class/race crafting into only giving class recipes again. Race locked secrets provide interesting dynamics for surface/UD trade which would be lost if loremasters access everything. Class locked crafting is less of a big deal but still provides a nice boon for the loremaster class (though I do think this secret and some others should have a lvl requirement)

Also, as an unrelated idea, I would also suggest to revise the spell school secrets. Requiring GSF in the school but not offering the full benefits of ESF provides a confusing mechanic that only benefits a few hybrid caster classes. Instead I think you should go the way you did already with golemcrafting and have secrets that offer the benefits of having GSF in the spell school without requiring any feats. Like a divination secret to see auras, use the deck, etc...

I think you can also be creative and add some obscure secrets that only have a use in a few hard to find areas of the server (think weatherstone, but not necessarily that).

All in all, I love the inclusion of the class, and I think its good you put it up for examination and discussion before it is released.

[Irongron]

I'm not going to rush to release this one, as I think we still have some ongoing issues with some of these secrets, and we will need to assess feedback and work on them before it is sent live.

It is a class that, too, that has been receiving, at best, a mixed reception.

While some are very enthusiastic to see it added (myself included - I've long wanted to see Loremaster), the process of adding secrets to the lacklustre ones on offer in source material is by its very nature a haphazard process, and I do understand those critics, who looking at this, feel not only that there is little by way of a guiding philosophy, but also, as a result, limited clarity as to what the class is actually intended to be. As the person that suggested the class, and (along with some of our players here) proposed many of the secrets I do have to take responsibilty for that.

I can say that I think it an unavoidable part of the process if we wish to add our own secrets, and the suggestions from players and feedback is really very helpful - having this on PGCC while feedback and suggestions are made is being a huge help. In the end we will arrive at a class that, once live, will not please everyone, but will be embraced by some.

Please do keep these suggestions and feedback coming, and expect a number of more adjustments to the class before we send it live.

[msterswrdsmn]

As I said before, the class as-is right now looks like a bard on crack for skilldumping and scroll usage. Theres very few downsides to taking ranks in this class.

Mechanically speaking....
3/4 BAB growth means nothing during epic leveling. It won't affect most builds even pre-epic, as all the good skilldump classes are 3/4 anyway.
Loremasters lore bonuses surpasses bards bardic knowledge in every way possible. Full bonus to scroll usage/lore score for loremasters knowledge, with a boost from scroll mastery, whereas bardic knowledge only counts half its bonus to scroll usage.
Reflex/Will as strong saving throws. A good number of combat-oriented classes only have 1 strong save
16 INT isn't a high requirement, as most builds will have 14 already for expertise/skillpoints already. INT gift or minor stat reallocation isn't hard. At the same time, 17-18 int is probably too much and make this a wizard/possibly assassin class only
Most of the secret knowledge feats are combat related, with very few seeming to actually benefit...well. Learning and lore.

The only downside to this class I can see is if you're playing a caster-class, as you're not getting any additional caster level/spell slots. Meaning mundane melee builds are going to be gaining the most mechanical benefit from this class. Not wizards. ESPECIALLY not wizards.

Lore-wise, the class seems kinda unfocused in general. The description seems to be summerized as "seekers of knowledge and truth". But...again, most of the bonus secret feats seem to be combat oriented, making this more of a skilldump class for a free epic prowress bonus.

My personal suggestions?
Things to remove
-Remove reflex as a strong save, leaving Will as the strong save (typical of casting classes)
-Remove the more combat oriented secret feats. I can tell you from experience, simply reading about something without actually putting any -proper- training and effort into something only teaches horrible form and bad habits.
-Maybe knock the BAB growth to 1/2 if you're really trying to keep this from being a martial-oriented class

Things to add
-Every [x class levels] give a free skill focus bonus feat.
-At level 1, allow this class to learn languages at an accelerated rate, similar to the gift of tongues gift, but maybe a bit toned down to prevent the gift from becoming an obsolete +1 elc garbage-bin gift. OR. Allow the loremaster bonus to stack with the tongues gift.
-Different paths? I don't have any definitive ideas other than the Loremaster-Artifacter path that seems to be coming up. Loremaster-Arcane and Loremaster-Divine could probably be used to flavor a caster-class loremaster as well as prevent the issue of caster levels/spells per day becoming too big of an issue (+1 every 2 levels?). Having loremaster themes/focuses would help tailor skills/feats towards that theme, rather than a "I KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT EVERYTHING" sort of loremaster which seems to be whats going on right now. It would also allow tailoring of feats, skills, and feats into more "flavored-to-the-theme" and less "skilldump like hell"
-Allow loremasters to use the lore spell like a special ability with a cooldown. Upgrades to legend lore at later levels. This shouldn't have any real impact on balance, as neither of these have any effect on scroll usage.

[SkipiusEsq]

I think this class could be amazing and really help those that embrace it to develop some deep RP for themselves and others. The idea of paths (like Knight) is an interesting one. As some have pointed out, you don't learn how to actually fight from reading books, but if you already have skill in fighting, reading a book on ancient techniques could improve your ability. So if you could take Loremaster-Martial (I'm not good with naming) if you had say 5 levels of some straight melee class and then the secrets to which you get access are more of the martial.

Similarly, a Loremaster-Arcane would get castor level/2 or something to make it still a viable dip for heavy castors. This path would not have access to some of the martial secrets.

Sorry if (1) this is not well articulated - trying to get something down with thoughts before starting work and (2) duplicitive of others' contributions - I wasn't able to read all of the messages since my last visit to the thread.

[Archnon]

I really like the idea of paths but I think having more than one option would be great too. What if you got to select secrets sort of like cleric domains. Those secrets improved as you leveled. So, shooting from the hip (and I am bad at this so please take with a grain of salt):

Loremaster:
-Gets secret of scrolls for free (old scaling)
-Gets secret of languages for free (old scaling)
-Gets Lore bonus to scrolls for free (2 per level)

Chooses a secret at level 1,4,8.
Secrets would follow a progression per level, similar to scrolls and languages.
Ideas: (Bonus/Bonus/Bonus Level/Level/Level)
-Secret of Saves - +2 Fort/Reflex/Will/Uni at levels 1/4/7/10
-Secret of Blades - +1 damage/+1AB/+2 Damage at 1/4/8
-Secret of Avoidance - +2 Reflex/+1dodge/+1Unisaves 1/4/8
-Secret of Magical Devices - UMD items get level increases in line with scrolls (including items )
-Secret of Crafts - Unlock Race based crafts with language selection on secret of languages. Level 8, Unlock 1 class based restrction (ie ranger/paladin/cleric)
-Secret of Arcana - +1 caster level/2 levels, ESF bonus at level 5/10
-Secret of Divinity - +1 caster level/2 levels, ESF bonus at level 5/10
- Secret of Explorer - +100% experience from maps, Ranger -track, Free map on entry 1/4/8
-Secret of the hunter - Skill Focus Spot/Listen, Read Tracks, ESF Spot/List 1/5/10
-Secret of the Guardsman - SF Discipline,SOMETHIGN,ESF Discipline 1/5/10

You can come up with tons more. You are capped at 3 so you still have to make choices. Plus, you have to invest in the class to get serious bonuses and you can put nice touchstones on less desirable secrets so people can still play them if they want to play them into higher levels. A 4 level dip could still net you nice scrolls and lore, plus say 1ab, 1damage, 1 dodge, 2 reflex. Something like that.


I would also really love to see the RP for this class tied into Soulhaven and the UD library. Place NPC's in each location. To take a secret you have to find the right NPC once you have the class. Then you have to complete 3 or so npc quests, ala Assassins/Radiant Heart, etc. This would give it some more flavor. Quest could be secret specific, recover rare scrolls, find a location, kill a boss and bring head, craft something special, etc. Just give it some RP teeth and make it interesting..... Just an idea, though a lot of work for the devs/dms/etc.

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

The crux of the matter for me:

It is about what Lore discovery opportunities are baked into the game module for the class to discover.

Personally, I would much prefer to see a less combative class that has growing skills to discover [Secrets of the Orcs], [Secrets of Cordor], [Secrets of the Elven Burial Grounds], [Secrets of Master Craftsman Dorin] etc.

Over time, more secrets could be added, to represent the history of the Isle, new area additions, etc. Making it dry and statistical is missing the *grander possibilities*.

-- Tath.

[Quidix]

I'm not going to rush to release this one, as I think we still have some ongoing issues with some of these secrets, and we will need to assess feedback and work on them before it is sent live.

It is a class that, too, that has been receiving, at best, a mixed reception.

While some are very enthusiastic to see it added (myself included - I've long wanted to see Loremaster), the process of adding secrets to the lacklustre ones on offer in source material is by its very nature a haphazard process, and I do understand those critics, who looking at this, feel not only that there is little by way of a guiding philosophy, but also, as a result, limited clarity as to what the class is actually intended to be. As the person that suggested the class, and (along with some of our players here) proposed many of the secrets I do have to take responsibilty for that.

I can say that I think it an unavoidable part of the process if we wish to add our own secrets, and the suggestions from players and feedback is really very helpful - having this on PGCC while feedback and suggestions are made is being a huge help. In the end we will arrive at a class that, once live, will not please everyone, but will be embraced by some.

Please do keep these suggestions and feedback coming, and expect a number of more adjustments to the class before we send it live.

This is great to hear! A few things I want to get clear:

• The loremaster idea is great
• Zaphiel's dedication to implement it is fantastic - not an easy class to get right
• I really like that you're seeking feedback and taking your time to roll live

[AstralUniverse]

So for example, with Explorer we now get for portals 400 a-exp, 400 gold and 100 immediate exp . Around 25/50/100 immediate exp for most screens and some 100/200/400 gold. If I understand it correctly. Maybe the immediate exp is reduced from the a-exp so minor difference if it is. This is a step in the right direction but I guess we just need to wait and see if people actually pick this feat. To me it does not seem appealing enough just yet, because of how easy it is to stack adventure exp that I'll never run out of.

Few other suggestions:
-remove bonuses, increased exp gain from adventure exp to 300%. For 20 RPR players it will result in 80 exp ticks instead of 60.
-more into the gold route: adventure exp gain is per normal characters, immediate exp gain as per current update, gold income increased to 400% of adventure exp gain (portals give 800 gold).

[AlonelyBard]

I am a massive fan of the class, both its original idea and how it's shifted to help better fit this server.
I do think that the adjustments for the secret of crafting are needed, allowing a character to craft items of other race and class combinations is absurd for what can simply be a 3 level dip.
However I do think that if the codebase allows, it would be very good to have some benefit shifted towards the end of the prestige class, currently level 10 of loremaster is a bit lack luster, doesn't get another secret and simply gains the improvement to their mastery. I believe it would be good to put some unique benefits behind this capstone to both encourage maxing the class and allow diverse loremasters.
Perhaps it could be a choice of an "improved secret" such as providing the old benefits of the crafting one, removing racial limitations, or revealing the map on entry for exploration(or improving xp/gold gains, maybe even creating a cool down so they can more continually benefit from the secret, 1rl month to prevent abuse)
Other ideas could be worked into this, and if balance was found i think would do amazingly well to make not only the class more unique but also provide the class with built in diversity between others that pick it up.

[jmm2222]

To give some extra utility to our beloved Commoner Class, I think that Loremaster should also be a class that Commoners could take past 20, just like Specialist. This would allow for players to really delve into more types of RP as Scholars, Alchemists, etc instead of it just being Commoner 20/Specialist 10 as most do. Plus, with some of the secrets that are available, they fit well with Commoner, and could also assist in the Commoner Leveling Process with the recent addition of the Secret of the Explorer if allowed to take Loremaster before 20, even if it is a simple boost, it's more than commoner's gain as of now.

And while it's not necessarily the focus of the Commoner Class, it will allow them to be semi utility in combat by being able to more readily use Scrolls and wands, or even act as a faux support class in lieu of an Arcane or Divine caster in the party. All the bonus languages can benefit them even further by allowing them to expand their knowledge and RP benefits by being able to act as a well learned folk as well.

The secrets of Artisan, Exploration, and Gathering would highly benefit the Commoner class as a whole, further building on their strengths.

[ReverentBlade]

I apologize is this seems oversimplified and trite but...what's wrong with Wizard?

[Tathkar Eisgrim]

I apologize is this seems oversimplified and trite but...what's wrong with Wizard?

Meaning -- in what way does a Loremaster differ from a Wizard?

A good question.

[cornelius_4]

A few ideas, perhaps the loremaster could make divinations spells behave differently, like necromancy for palemasters. I have some examples, but mostly it is the idea of some additional mechanics to some spells, could be other spells and schools too.

Maybe when you cast legend lore, you get at hint at places with FOIG mechanics. Maybe you get a bonus to finding more/better magic items, scrolls and books.

Maybe search works differently, with bonuses and/or a higher cap to finding items or some other altered functionality.

Maybe the loremaster has a special resource that accumulates whenever you find additional items with search. Then, when you have enough you could do something, like commune with a planar entity and ask a question. "Who wrote that anonymous message on this board?" and the planar entity makes a roll and then you may or may not know. "Who constructed/bashed this fixture?". "Who has entered this quater in the past month (IG time)?". "Who desecrated/concecrated this altar?". For the loremaster knows many things unknown to most.

There might be a choice (perhaps like the knight class tradition selection, although you might get to chose more than once as you level up) in what secrets to seek, such that some secrets can cater to spellcasters, where others could cater to mundane/hybrid classes and you can pick the ones that would work for your character.

[Halibutthead]

i just cannot wrap my head around how a "loremaster," who is supposed to be some kind of secret lore gathering guy, is somehow compatible with a "commoner" who is literally just some dude in town. and by some dude in town, i don't mean some dude in arelith town, who's actually a level 30 spellcaster who can slay a dragon while naked and hogtied, but like the NPCs cleaning up the nomad for a few coins.

loremaster is an adventuring class. maybe what people are wanting is the "librarian" class, but that's not the flavor that loremaster has been presented as.

[Nitro]

but like the NPCs cleaning up the nomad for a few coins.

That's not at all what the playable commoners on Arelith are though. There's nothing stopping a commoner from becoming an epic stealther/trapper as it is, and they can already get access to all scrolls and wands if they want to. Loremaster as it is presented provides a lot of features that would make a lot of sense with the current presentation of commoner:

• Unlock class crafting works perfectly with commoners increased craft skill.

• Secret Knowledge of the Explorer is like it was custom made for a noncombat class, which fits Arelith commoners perfectly since they can't get combat XP.

• Learning extra languages and being better at teaching languages fits perfectly with a noncombat character who spends a majority of their time on character interactions

• Extra resources from nodes, again fits perfectly with the Arelith commoner crafting theme

• Wand and scroll specialist works well with commoner, since they're one of the classes that can afford the skill investment to actually use t9 scrolls

Strip out the epic spell features and it's like the class was made with commoner in mind, almost every class feature works with great synergy with commoner, and with pretty poor synergy with other classes.

[Halibutthead]

Oh, yeah, I'm not saying that there isnt obvious class synergy in the two that a lot of commoner players (or potential commoner players) would want, but that a loremaster is an adventuring class, which the commoner, by definition, isn't. I know people arent RPing their commoners like commoners, they're super tradesmen built to craft, and some are adventurers because "lol i can."

What I'm saying is that it doesnt fit the stated flavor. Commoners should have common abilities. A loremaster is special, who has scoured forgotten knowledge to learn secrets lost to time. This isnt something that a *commoner* should be capable of.

[Zaphiel]

A loremaster is special, who has scoured forgotten knowledge to learn secrets lost to time. This isnt something that a *commoner* should be capable of.

[Quidix]

A loremaster is special, who has scoured forgotten knowledge to learn secrets lost to time. This isnt something that a *commoner* should be capable of.

Be that as it may for the class as a whole, isn't the point that many of the secrets don't really feel like "scoured forgotten knowledge to learn secrets lost to time". They are basically various bonuses to non-combat activities such as languages, crafting and gathering - and those fit very, very well with commoner. Why can't a commoner be good at gathering herbs and farming? Why can't a commoner be good at crafting some unusual things? Why can't a commoner be good at learning / teaching languages?

[Baseili]

Perhaps because Commoners are exactly that? Commoners. The average souls among idiotically powerful characters. If someone spends several decades learning esoteric secrets of lore and a dozen languages to do so they are hardy common any more.

As for the class itself, it still doesn't strike me as particularly solid in what its supposed to be. Presently it seems like UMD turned into a class with splashes of ideas thrown in. I'd suggest turning the scroll and wand usage boons into secrets chosen at the very end "Secrets of the Arcane" and "Secret of Artifice" respectively with a general bonus to magical book usage added instead, perhaps allowing the Loremaster to add them to a collection such as the Magnum Opus I suggested earlier? Could allow the use of the collected spells so many times in a day or on cooldown, maybe shift the ESF bonuses to one time books that need to be found and can only be used by Loremasters?