Dispel

[jomonog]

I know the topic has probably been done to death and I realise Arelith has reverted a Beamdog change to the way it was mostly for a number of years, but as a relatively new player the way dispel works here and the current situation of a potion or scroll by a mundane having CL30 against dispel while multi-class casters being easier to dispel makes little sense.

Nerfing mundane CL would of course result in caster supremacy so I completely understand the rationale why it is this way and I am not proposing any major reduction to the CL for mundane characters.

Instead though, what about increasing multi-classed casters CL against dispel also based on character level? That way every level 30 character ends up CL 30 to resist dispels, no matter the source of the buff, whether it be scrolled, potion or self cast? If you wanted to make it somewhat logical, the formula could even be caster levels + (mundane levels -1) (OK so that would result in a reduction to mundane CL, but not by much, and it does seem somewhat supported by logic as much as logic can be applied to a fantasy magical system haha).

This would of course also open up a much larger diversity of builds which are currently deemed unviable as "dispel bait" simply because of the Arelith specific changes which have increased DC for greater dispel from 15 to 22.

[AstralUniverse]

It wasnt exactly reverted. the CL of your umd is your caster class CL, same as your spellbook spells. It used to be much worse before EE but it's not amazing now either and I really cant wait for this bug to be behind us so we can play rangers, paladins, divine bards and spellswords with 21 CL again. I think the devs salvaged whatever was possible to salvage when they turned the CL to react to caster levels rather than the item caster level and not count the character as a caster at all unless it actually IS a caster with positive casting modifer and 10+ caster levels. Not sure anything else can be done except waiting for Beamdog to solve this mess on their end. Wait they are too busy doing graphics. Oh well.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I know the topic has probably been done to death and I realise Arelith has reverted a Beamdog change to the way it was mostly for a number of years, but as a relatively new player the way dispel works here and the current situation of a potion or scroll by a mundane having CL30 against dispel while multi-class casters being easier to dispel makes little sense.

Nerfing mundane CL would of course result in caster supremacy so I completely understand the rationale why it is this way and I am not proposing any major reduction to the CL for mundane characters.

Instead though, what about increasing multi-classed casters CL against dispel also based on character level? That way every level 30 character ends up CL 30 to resist dispels, no matter the source of the buff, whether it be scrolled, potion or self cast? If you wanted to make it somewhat logical, the formula could even be caster levels + (mundane levels -1) (OK so that would result in a reduction to mundane CL, but not by much, and it does seem somewhat supported by logic as much as logic can be applied to a fantasy magical system haha).

This would of course also open up a much larger diversity of builds which are currently deemed unviable as "dispel bait" simply because of the Arelith specific changes which have increased DC for greater dispel from 15 to 22.

If we give everyone cl 30, it hurts build diversity too

[NPC Logger Number 2]

I personally agree it is dumb that someone with 21 levels of spellsword is easier to dispel than a level 30 barbarian who can't even read. (0 lore, 8 int, still harder to dispel than a literal epic battle wizard)

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I personally agree it is dumb that someone with 21 levels of spellsword is easier to dispel than a level 30 barbarian who can't even read. (0 lore, 8 int, still harder to dispel than a literal epic battle wizard)

Conceptually I agree, but balance!

buffs are weird in nwn. In 3.x items and spells dont stack so there would be no bull strength to dispel at higher levels.

[jomonog]

[quote=malcolm_mountainslayer post_id=237403 time=1597548099
[/quote]
If we give everyone cl 30, it hurts build diversity too
[/quote]

Interested to understand - what current builds would no longer be viable?

[Juuj]

I know the topic has probably been done to death and I realise Arelith has reverted a Beamdog change to the way it was mostly for a number of years, but as a relatively new player the way dispel works here and the current situation of a potion or scroll by a mundane having CL30 against dispel while multi-class casters being easier to dispel makes little sense.

Nerfing mundane CL would of course result in caster supremacy so I completely understand the rationale why it is this way and I am not proposing any major reduction to the CL for mundane characters.

Instead though, what about increasing multi-classed casters CL against dispel also based on character level? That way every level 30 character ends up CL 30 to resist dispels, no matter the source of the buff, whether it be scrolled, potion or self cast? If you wanted to make it somewhat logical, the formula could even be caster levels + (mundane levels -1) (OK so that would result in a reduction to mundane CL, but not by much, and it does seem somewhat supported by logic as much as logic can be applied to a fantasy magical system haha).

This would of course also open up a much larger diversity of builds which are currently deemed unviable as "dispel bait" simply because of the Arelith specific changes which have increased DC for greater dispel from 15 to 22.

If we give everyone cl 30, it hurts build diversity too

I’m curious on how exactly giving cL 30 to everybody hurts build diversity too.

[Baron Saturday]

My understanding, from past discussions of a similar nature, is that giving everyone CL 30 removes the main weakness of certain low CL builds that are otherwise very, very strong.

It would also make abjuration specialists cry.

[garrbear758]

This is never going to happen for balance reasons.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

I know the topic has probably been done to death and I realise Arelith has reverted a Beamdog change to the way it was mostly for a number of years, but as a relatively new player the way dispel works here and the current situation of a potion or scroll by a mundane having CL30 against dispel while multi-class casters being easier to dispel makes little sense.

Nerfing mundane CL would of course result in caster supremacy so I completely understand the rationale why it is this way and I am not proposing any major reduction to the CL for mundane characters.

Instead though, what about increasing multi-classed casters CL against dispel also based on character level? That way every level 30 character ends up CL 30 to resist dispels, no matter the source of the buff, whether it be scrolled, potion or self cast? If you wanted to make it somewhat logical, the formula could even be caster levels + (mundane levels -1) (OK so that would result in a reduction to mundane CL, but not by much, and it does seem somewhat supported by logic as much as logic can be applied to a fantasy magical system haha).

This would of course also open up a much larger diversity of builds which are currently deemed unviable as "dispel bait" simply because of the Arelith specific changes which have increased DC for greater dispel from 15 to 22.

If we give everyone cl 30, it hurts build diversity too

I’m curious on how exactly giving cL 30 to everybody hurts build diversity too.

ok so quick examples for your curiosity sake:

Spellsword/Paladin 21 main weakness in comparison to other higher CL builds is that is lacks CL for resisting dispels. But a 21/x/x is still very strong despite said CL issues.

Niche things like pure level 30 mages whom are overal weaker than casters that do level 3 dips would have an even bigger middle finger to their face. It would even hurt optimal pure builds like level 30 warlocks or level 30 druids (though i wouldnt feel so bad). about that).

Further down the line, if we adjusted everythign to compensate everyone on average being harder to dispel, then mundanes will actaully at some point become easier to be dispelled and the git gud people of arelith can tell you casters don't need any extra help.

The devs have repeatedly increased the margin of 'mundane or hybrid' You need like at least 12 level of a casting class + a high enough casting stat to be considered non mundane. So things like 16 bards just for the bard song bonuses are still viable.

The only problem in dispells right now IMO is that if I were to rolle up a shadowmage/shadowdancer, the increased caster level from shadow dancer DOES NOT count towards dispelling so thematic hybrid of the two results in being dispel bait when one is supposed to have an effective CL 30 (and does for spell effects, but not for resisting dispel).

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

This is never going to happen for balance reasons.

it would be great to see shadow dancer caster levels for shadowmage work for resisting dispells though.

[Aniel]

This is never going to happen for balance reasons.

it would be great to see shadow dancer caster levels for shadowmage work for resisting dispells though.

They do!

And...

... I really cant wait for this bug to be behind us so we can play rangers, paladins, divine bards and spellswords with 21 CL again.

Unless something goes wrong, maybe Soon.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

This is never going to happen for balance reasons.

it would be great to see shadow dancer caster levels for shadowmage work for resisting dispells though.

They do!

And...

... I really cant wait for this bug to be behind us so we can play rangers, paladins, divine bards and spellswords with 21 CL again.

Unless something goes wrong, maybe Soon.

When was this fixed? It most definitely did not work early summer on pgcc. I had sine hybrid roughly 15/15 shadow mage/shadow dancer and (give or take 2 levels) and a cleric with no abj feats dispelled me and all my buffs (which included getting rid of my super awesome shadow that was immune to word of faith) every time without fail. Could even dispell me out of greater sanctuary..

*edit*

If I believed it was working, I would roll my level 10 with the - 2 ecl reward tonight and recreate them!

[jomonog]

A bit confused with the responses. Some saying it wont happen for balance reasons, and others saying it might happen anyway when dispel gets fixed by Beamdog in future updates?

I get spellsword 21/x/x builds would get stronger but spellsword is kind of way overtuned as a class anyway. Hybrid battleclerics and bards would also get a boost which would balance out the spellswords.

I dont see how abjurers get worse, if anything don't they become more relevant if there are more builds with higher rolls needed to dispel?

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

A bit confused with the responses. Some saying it wont happen for balance reasons, and others saying it might happen anyway when dispel gets fixed by Beamdog in future updates?

I get spellsword 21/x/x builds would get stronger but spellsword is kind of way overtuned as a class anyway. Hybrid battleclerics and bards would also get a boost which would balance out the spellswords.

I dont see how abjurers get worse, if anything don't they become more relevant if there are more builds with higher rolls needed to dispel?

An abj caster maxes out at dispel check of + 24
A level 30 caster has a dc of 41 (higher if they take abj defense feats) vs a typical build of 27/3 which is dc of 38. Right now, abj mages roll ac 14 or higher to dispel a 27/3 build. A 30 caster would be 17 or higher. A mage with no abj focus feats at all need not bother trying to dispel caster level 30 and should stick to breaches only.

[Aniel]

it would be great to see shadow dancer caster levels for shadowmage work for resisting dispells though.

They do!

And...

... I really cant wait for this bug to be behind us so we can play rangers, paladins, divine bards and spellswords with 21 CL again.

Unless something goes wrong, maybe Soon.

When was this fixed? It most definitely did not work early summer on pgcc. I had sine hybrid roughly 15/15 shadow mage/shadow dancer and (give or take 2 levels) and a cleric with no abj feats dispelled me and all my buffs (which included getting rid of my super awesome shadow that was immune to word of faith) every time without fail. Could even dispell me out of greater sanctuary..

*edit*

If I believed it was working, I would roll my level 10 with the - 2 ecl reward tonight and recreate them!

I'm not aware that it was ever broken, but now that you mention it, I don't remember seeing it in the old dispel code. I made sure to include it in the temporary work around if you'd like to test it on the PGCC. I'm pretty confident it's fine now.

That being said, being level 10 means no award refund and you don't get an award roll until 16+, just keep that in mind!

A bit confused with the responses. Some saying it wont happen for balance reasons, and others saying it might happen anyway when dispel gets fixed by Beamdog in future updates?

I get spellsword 21/x/x builds would get stronger but spellsword is kind of way overtuned as a class anyway. Hybrid battleclerics and bards would also get a boost which would balance out the spellswords.

I dont see how abjurers get worse, if anything don't they become more relevant if there are more builds with higher rolls needed to dispel?

What's not happening is all characters always having the same dispel resistance. It used to be the case that if a caster didn't cast a spell then they'd retain full dispel resistance, but was broken by a bug.

[jomonog]

Ahh that makes sense. Seems a bit crazy though that if fixed a caster not casting a spell from its own spellbook is the way to work around dispellability lol. Also that we have created a situation where there are builds which deliberately dump the casting stat to stay mundane.

As an aside, i also thought best abjurers get DC 26 to dispel (not 24)?

[AstralUniverse]

This is never going to happen for balance reasons.

it would be great to see shadow dancer caster levels for shadowmage work for resisting dispells though.

They do!

And...

... I really cant wait for this bug to be behind us so we can play rangers, paladins, divine bards and spellswords with 21 CL again.

Unless something goes wrong, maybe Soon.

If you mean all sorts of umd/potions CL vs dispel will be total character level, regardless of anything at all, then Woohoo! Crossing my fingers here.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

They do!

And...



Unless something goes wrong, maybe Soon.

When was this fixed? It most definitely did not work early summer on pgcc. I had sine hybrid roughly 15/15 shadow mage/shadow dancer and (give or take 2 levels) and a cleric with no abj feats dispelled me and all my buffs (which included getting rid of my super awesome shadow that was immune to word of faith) every time without fail. Could even dispell me out of greater sanctuary..

*edit*

If I believed it was working, I would roll my level 10 with the - 2 ecl reward tonight and recreate them!

I'm not aware that it was ever broken, but now that you mention it, I don't remember seeing it in the old dispel code. I made sure to include it in the temporary work around if you'd like to test it on the PGCC. I'm pretty confident it's fine now.

That being said, being level 10 means no award refund and you don't get an award roll until 16+, just keep that in mind!

A bit confused with the responses. Some saying it wont happen for balance reasons, and others saying it might happen anyway when dispel gets fixed by Beamdog in future updates?

I get spellsword 21/x/x builds would get stronger but spellsword is kind of way overtuned as a class anyway. Hybrid battleclerics and bards would also get a boost which would balance out the spellswords.

I dont see how abjurers get worse, if anything don't they become more relevant if there are more builds with higher rolls needed to dispel?

What's not happening is all characters always having the same dispel resistance. It used to be the case that if a caster didn't cast a spell then they'd retain full dispel resistance, but was broken by a bug.

I am aware, i tried reporting bug multiple times before moving on to a different build but got 0 responses. This was done after the first temporary work around when level 10 caster was benchmark for mundane or not. I can test again tonight and do a new report.

[AstralUniverse]

It used to be the case that if a caster didn't cast a spell then they'd retain full dispel resistance, but was broken by a bug.

It was much better than this for a time.

Before EE, yes, items CL was decided by either full character level or if you cast a spell on yourself, your caster level CL.

Some time after EE was lunched, dont remember exactly how long, it was fixed and things you cast would always get your caster class CL and things you'd get from items would always use your full character level CL. That was perfect. Anything else is just as bad as now.

[Anomandaris]

I really don't understand how a mage should have a harder time dispelling a mundane who is casting objectively weaker spells from a piece of paper/wand/bottle, versus trying to dispel the spells from the ACTUAL mage (who maybe even scribed/brewed/wanded the same scrolls) sitting at 26/27 caster levels. The answer I've seen in this thread is "yah it makes no sense but... balance."

I'm sorry but that is silly from both IC/Lore and balance standpoint. Couldn't the mundane CL have a negative modifier attached to it so it's (Character Level -3/4) or something to make it more reasonable? Having effective CL of 30 for dispel resistance for all mundanes is insane. Especially for builds that DO cast spells like the bard example. Why should a mundane's wards be more sticky than a mage's? In fact in many cases the mage is more dependent on the wards for survival and thus more crippled when dispelled in many cases.

It's perfectly fine for mundane's to have an "arbitrarily" higher dispel resistance than would make sense lore wise for their wards for "balance," but not higher than a lvl 26/27 epic mage. If it's actually balance then why is it acceptable in the meta for a mage to have CL 26/27? The mage's player is making the conscious decision to sacrifice CL for a cross class and get skills etc., because CL 27 is still quite useful for dispel resis; these builds aren't dispel bait. Having CL 30 for dispel resist is veryuncommon because casters are cross classing a majority of the time.

Please peg the mundane ''caster level" at something more reasonably balanced than just flat 30 (coming from a person who's main is a mundane and benefits tremendously from this change FYI). Anyone saying Mages are the uber powerhouses now is just out of touch. With timestop nerf, getting a reliable kill as an evoker is not likely if the opponent is savvy between prays and heals. DC Casters are going against PC's that can hit saves from the 40's-70's+ easy. The only arcane caster build I'd say that is still truly terrifying in PvP is the wild mage, which is insanely powerful, and by the way is built to lvl 30 CL....

[mjones3]

Can't you just have someone else buff you? You can still buff yourself but just need to be careful in PvE areas that are known for dispelling.

[Ork]

I really don't understand

Thankful you don't have to understand. This is just the way the world is or magic is on Arelith. If you're looking for IC justifications, make one up.

[AstralUniverse]

I really don't understand

Thankful you don't have to understand. This is just the way the world is or magic is on Arelith. If you're looking for IC justifications, make one up.

Pretty much this. A lot of what's going on around here is balanced around the platform - a game from 2001 that reflects d&d in a very poor way (I mean, you cant even jump here). That's what we've been working with. That's what we got. Lore is great for content, but not for sever balance. This fact needs to sink.

In a world where items always react to full character level and spell casts always react to class level, there's pretty much the same balance table we have now, but with so soooo many more viable builds in game.

[Gouge Away]

I get why it is, though I wish mundanes topped out a little lower than 30, so a standard level 26 or 27 cleric or mage with dip and a fighter drinking a potion were equal instead of the fighter having the advantage. Then a pure class caster would also have a little leg up, more so if they took ED:Abj.