Phasing out the Radiant Heart writs and signets

[Seven Sons of Sin]

One of the worst consequences of the nerfs to the Radiant Signet rings is making them so on-par with other gear, that being a Signet-wearer is not a permanent thing.

Rather, because the Signet Rings are bad until you become Knight Officer, an increasing trend is for characters to go "oops, yeah, here's my ring, I'm actually a Radiant Heart too."

There's nothing inherently wrong with that, if it is purely from a perspective of roleplay (going incognito, etc.), but I do think that we are muddying the waters of roleplay with mechanical awards. Which is what I was against, originally, with the Rings.

Now, because Signet Rings are just "okay borderline bad until you get Knight Officer", the actual incentive of the Radiant Heart is to do Radiant Heart writs.

Which poses the issue that there is narrative consequence (joining a faction) purely for the reasons of mechanical rewards (xp and an eventual ok magical item). Moreover, because there is a push to only wear the actual ring when it is worth wearing, at Knight Officer, there is a skewing of faction-relevancy.

And if the mechanical rank of the signet-ring (Junior Knight, Knight, Senior Knight, Knight Officer) carry little, or none, narrative consequence - why are they in character descriptions to begin with? Why are there ranks at all?

After months, I do fully believe that paladin/lawful good roleplay is being slightly undermined by the existence of both Radiant Heart writs, the ranking faction system, and the rings themselves. If someone wants to join a faction, it should be significant and consequential, and also be without question out of some desire based in Roleplay, and not Mechanical Reward.

"But Seven, no one is forcing paladins to join Radiant Heart?"

Which I think is a good question, and I would wonder if there are LGers that have foregoed joining the Radiant Heart because of the murky waters of mechanics/roleplay. There were paladins before that existed outside of Benwick.

Maybe I've answered my own concern, but that would be a disheartening state of affairs to something that should be utilized by a sect of characters, but is dismissed because of the awkwardness of its design.

[Xerah]

This seems like a suggestion.

I think you underestimate the rings. All you really need for a ring is +1 to 2 stats for it to be useable until you get to end game equipment. At the third level, you get a potential for another +1 stat or saves which will tend to be better than any other option you could reasonably want to spend gold on for temporary equipment. I have a level 25 character, who is a knight, who still uses the ring all the time since there isn't really a reason to see out another one for +2 to some skill that doesn't really make a difference.

With the changes to the ring, there is now less burning need to join the Radiant Heart. You can still reasonably get the same with rune investment and a bit of enchanting luck.

One thing that should be modified is to make it clear that these characters are not "Knights" in the eyes of the Radiant Heart, but merely auxiliary members, so I'll be doing some wording adjustment on that to make it clearer.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

This seems like a suggestion.

The delineation between feedback / suggestions / Slanty Shanty / Op eds / opinions / tweaks / questions on these forums is very confusing and unclear.

See: Surface Thoughts in Slanty Shanty (but not the Feedback subforum), that is principally a suggestion.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

This seems like a suggestion.

The delineation between feedback / suggestions / Slanty Shanty / Op eds / opinions / tweaks / questions on these forums is very confusing and unclear.

See: Surface Thoughts in Slanty Shanty (but not the Feedback subforum), that is principally a suggestion.

I wouldn't mind some clarification on this as well. I always assumed suggestion = suggesting a new feature, and feedback = talking about an existing feature. But I was recently told that a topic I made about an existing feature was a suggestion and not feedback as well.

[TooManyPotatoes]

One thing that should be modified is to make it clear that these characters are not "Knights" in the eyes of the Radiant Heart, but merely auxiliary members, so I'll be doing some wording adjustment on that to make it clearer.

It is largely unclear to the people I talk to what being an auxillary member even means.

The only thing I've been able to get people to agree upon is that being an auxillary member means you have a ring you might wear, and you can get some extra writs.

Principles differ significantly from member to member, even to the point of open conflict.

The Radiant might be the most chaotic and disjointed faction on the whole isle, and that's not a good look for anyone trying to play the good guy.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

To answer TooManyPotatoes:

The Order of Radiant Heart is the faction of the mainland.

The Radiant Heart Auxiliary is the Arelith-branch of the mainland faction. However, Arelithian PCs can only achieve a high rank internally against other Arelithians. That is, a Knight Officer of the Auxiliary has greater clout in the Auxiliary than a Junior Knight. However, both still are submissive to the Radiant Heart Mainland, which is personified in the Prelate NPCs.

The highest ranking members of the Radiant Heart Auxiliary on Arelith, are the Prelates, not any PC. (Similarly, how the highest ranking Cordorian official is the King, not the elected PC Chancellor)

But the classifier of "Auxiliary" is important, because as Xerah mentioned, the PC Knight Officer is NOT a Knight Officer of the Order of the Radiant Heart. Because Arelith doesn't (for good reason) impose the canonical rules of the Order of the Radiant Heart (must be at least 40 years of age, and have a distinguished record of service).

If that Knight Officer went to the Mainland Radiant Heart, they would not be a Knight Officer of that "core" faction. They would likely be a junior knight.

This is very similar to both the Harper and Zhentarim systems (I believe), where both of these groups function as cells to their continental superiors.

The issue is that both Harpers and Zhentarim are largely guarded by DM applications to regulate the rules/ethos of these groups, whereas the Radiant Heart PCs are beholden to alignment and class, only.

I do think having the Radiant Heart HQ in Minmir as indeed the Radiant Heart (and not a faceless, interchangeable order) is positive, because it forces LGers into a particular style of roleplay. Simultaneously, this can be a frustrating area of roleplay because it either relies on more DM-involvement for Prelates to dictate to the Auxiliaries, or it means the Knight-Officers are in this weird power vacuum of thinking they might make a decision, but another Knight-Officer might disagree, but then the Prelates could indeed step in and make a different decision.

Overall, regardless of positive/negatives, its awkward. And I think awkwardness can be a greater problem than anything.

edit: to tie it back, imho this awkwardness is compounded by Radiant Heart writs and the signet-rings. Prelate Shillorn says I'm doing really good work because look at all my expees but does this functionally translate into something narratively? if I solo-grind writs all day, and am Knight Officer, is this credible? is this a legit source of conflict with other PCs? is there grief? etc.

[Might-N-Magic]

I don't think most people would have minded the old rings if everybody else got a similar option no matter what build they were, but of all things to foster, paladins and battle clerics were hardly "in need" of a leg up in most people's eyes.

If the staff had rolled out similar things for rogues, wizards, etc, I doubt anyone would have said a word.

*sniffs* I want my thieves' guild.

[NauVaseline]

This seems like a suggestion.

See, without offering a suggestion about how to fix something seen as a problem, it's just complaining. Which has been, ironically, complained about by staff and other players in this very forum. If you want constructive feedback, 'this seems like a suggestion' should be struck from the vocab, because right now, it appears like it's only busted out whenever a dev or another player doesn't want to see something happen/work on something. Alternatively, lock the feedback forum.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I don't know if Ork's post was moderated away, or he deleted out of remorse. It's unfortunate either way.

The Radiant Heart Auxiliary fundamentally (as a mechanic) is at odds with the core ethos of the server - "cooperative storytelling."

A Junior Knight could pour more sweat, blood, and roleplay into whatever the faction is, but a Knight-Officer could emerge from the woodwork of solo-grinding writs and be deemed by the playerbase as having more "merit."

But Seven, wouldn't characters know this?

And I would say probably a good chunk do. However, to the outsider (and the 'outsider' is an important factor in Lawful Good roleplay), the Junior Knight is lesser than the Knight Officer.

But Seven, isn't it only the roleplay that matters?

Yeah, of course. So why is the system based around mechanics and not storytelling? Like why does it fundamentally exist?


If this is how the Pirate system works as well, I think this is just really incongruent with Arelith's (previous) design philosophy.

If the ranks don't matter, the faction doesn't matter - the system doesn't matter.

If the ranks do matter, then roleplay doesn't matter, because the ranks are not indicated by roleplay.

I don't see other perspectives. If the developers/contributors want to have a lawful good faction in Minmir, let lawful good characters organize and police themselves in accordance to their own creativity, without being beholden to some writ-grinding system.

edit: if I may add saucily, Benwick had the problem of LG characters staying behind holy walls and becoming obsessed with tradition, hierarchies, and holding onto their own.

The Radiant Heart Auxiliary has the problem of being a faction where characters a) don't understand what it is or b) are confused why they should care because see above.

[Ork]

It was moderated away.

[ReverentBlade]

My character equates tag ranks for pirates/knights as solely a measure of their dungeon-grinding competence, and not their social prowess or trustworthiness. Its a measure of martial ability and nothing more.

[Queen Titania]

This seems like a suggestion.

See, without offering a suggestion about how to fix something seen as a problem, it's just complaining. Which has been, ironically, complained about by staff and other players in this very forum. If you want constructive feedback, 'this seems like a suggestion' should be struck from the vocab, because right now, it appears like it's only busted out whenever a dev or another player doesn't want to see something happen/work on something. Alternatively, lock the feedback forum.

This is fair criticism, I think feedback's difference with suggestion can be a bit confusing, and I made a pinned post about it over a year ago when a lot of feedback threads were very specifically just suggestion threads.

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=22721

Feedback is basically a review. Think of a movie review, they rarely say how to make the movie better. I think there was an excellent example with someone giving feedback on their experience in Skal, from leveling to the environment to the sort of RP and isolation it had. That would definitely be considered feedback.

The other alternative is brainstorming. You have no suggestion, you are just gathering ideas from your fellow community members to eventually form the suggestion.

The third is more or less a DEV creates a thread and specifically asks for Feedback to X system.

I mostly see Seven's post as a feedback post, but I can see how someone can come away with there is a suggestion underneath this, because it's not really "brainstorming", and it's not a full review either.

[Borin Drakkmurl]

I understand and even agree with a lot of the criticism and doubts raised about the whole Radiant Heart writ/signet thing.
(I have a love/hate relationship with the writ system itself.)

Playing as sporadically as I have for the past few years, it took me a while to realize and understand what these signets even did or were.

But now, after having more context, playing a paladin style character, and after having read a lot of the good points raised in previous posts, I am left with the following thoughts and questions:

• Playing my knightly/paladin type of character, I have never felt obliged, nor interested, to be honest, in officially joining the Radiant Heart or pursuing its signet ranks. The comestic touch in the description and whatever item reward it grants, are irrelevant to me and my roleplay and, in fact, the least fascinating thing about the whole area/faction.
  I do, however, understand the frustrations that it can produce when people are trying to build up thematic activity around it.

• Correct me if I am wrong but, in theory, nothing is stopping me from making a group of gnomish Gaerdal Ironhand paladins and settting up shop in the Radiant Heart, so we can be surrounded by goodly company, before we depart in our daily crusades against the vile goblinkind and koboldkind, right? Or if there was something stopping me, it would not be a mechanical thing, but roleplayed ideology, yes?

• Contradicting somewhat my last point: As rigid as the backdrop might be, in that it is more squarely rooted and framed by FR lore than a lot of things on Arelith tend to be, isn't that actually kind of the point of it all? At least, that's what I got from it when I first heard about the update and then saw the actual place: that it isn't meant to be just a random pretty fortress for divinely blessed warriors, but..well, as the name says, it is supposed to be the Radiant Heart HQ on the island. That is the frame within which rp is loosely (or not so loosely) supposed to happen there?
  And that, I believe, is what is at the heart of a lot of these issues. The thematic of the place plus the "regular mmorpg" way of attaining these titles eroding at the sandboxy nature of Arelith?

• Thinking and writing about this leads me towards an idea that might not be that great, and even to me sounds counterintuitive, but rather than flat out eliminate the signets (which would not be terrible, at all), why not modify and expand the whole thing?
  Give a similar system to Myon, to the Temple of the Red Knight in Cordor, to the Zhents, to the Arcane Tower, to the Temple of Lolth, to the Cordorian Guard. But.... either nerf or flat out eliminate the power of the items associated with it. At the very least make them less about raw mechanical power, and more about roleplay avenues. Something like the always suggested elf-friend tokens for Myon, for example, or access to special and useful dialogue with the throng of Cordorian npcs for the guard, etc etc.
  
  And, somehow, more importantly, implement more player agency and oversight into the whole of it. You know, since one of the main selling points of Arelith was always the fact that factions were player driven, player led, populated and,not to mention, player created?

This post is a bit all over the place and I don't really have a good way to tie it up. I guess I'll just try and summarize it all this way:
There's a lot of contradiction going on with this system, that leads to awkwardness, but there's also a lot of potential in there for a whole lot of cool stuff to happen.

[Kenji]

Which I think is a good question, and I would wonder if there are LGers that have foregoed joining the Radiant Heart because of the murky waters of mechanics/roleplay. There were paladins before that existed outside of Benwick.

Yes, one of my mechanical TFs, while having a Paladin dip, did not join RH even if the ring is a very attractive option. Also note that the Paladin dip is taken very seriously and incorporated into the TF’s RP. Albeit her martial prowess may not be as comparable as the other Paladins.

I digress! Not here to defend my Paladin RP. I’ve also known Wrips to play LG Paladins and not joining RH because it doesn’t fit his characters’ RP (two that I know, actually). One was a Paladin of Sune, another an Aasimar paladin.

So to answer the question: yes, there are some out there forego joining RH. It’s just sometimes joining RH just doesn’t fit a player character’s concept whether there may have been a mechanical boon or not.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

so I'll be doing some wording adjustment on that to make it clearer.

I am very appreciative of the update. Thank you.

Very excited to see how this will make things more dynamic among the Auxiliary. The new language around the rankings also should add a new kick into the mix of things.