Juiblex and other proxy deities

[Itikar]

I noticed that with the last update Juiblex has been added as an independent deity separate from Ghaunadaur. Now, in the lore it is stated very clearly how Juiblex is not directly active in the Realms, but his worshippers receive spells in reality from Ghaunadaur. A notable source for this is Demihuman Deities page 17, but the same is repeated also in other sourcebooks.

Now, far from me to say to scrap Juiblex, however I opened this thread to point out an inconsistency. There are other deities that experience the same and the policy toward them was to make the characters worship the proxy deity, even if they are not really the same.

The biggest example of this I can think of was Zinzerena who was at once coded but that apparently has been scrapped because of that reason. Does this mean there are chances to see her come back? I would very much like that actually, since while it is Lolth that provides her spell this is unknown to the worshippers and the two churches are actually enemy of each other.

Something similar can be said for Malyk/Talos and Nebelun/Gond, although I do not recall them ever being coded. Perhaps also to La'laskra/Loviatar but that is more complicated due to La'laskra being a deity specific to the server, but still a deity whose presence is felt and that frankly cannot be made to disappear just because she is no longer accessible.

A slightly different consideration can also be made for the dead gods Bhaal, Myrkul, Leira and Ibrandul the first of whom was probably coded in the past but who was removed. Again some similar considerations apply here, Leirans may receive spells from Cyric or from some other unnamed entity but the two churches are very different. In truth Leira's death was never finally confirmed completely in the lore, really, as the doubt that she was still alive persisted. Ibrandul on the other hand was truly dead, but as a neutral nature deity many of his worshippers had little in common with those of Shar.

All things considered, I see more benefit in having these proxies as separate from the deities that actually provide spells, than having them lumped together, but at the same time I think there should be a definite policy toward them, either they are separate or not, imho.

[Xerah]

Juiblex is stated that there are still cults of him around using poor logic, but they exisit.

Zinzerena is known as dead and not worshiped from what I understand.

I do plan to add some more, Malyk for example, as well.

I do also have plans for a dead god system but not entirely sure what it will be yet.

[Itikar]

Juiblex is stated that there are still cults of him around using poor logic, but they exisit.

There are cults of him, as there are of the Elder Elemental god and of a few of the others mentioned above, and of others that I did not mention, but the lore is clear that Juiblex' worshippers receive spells and power from Ghaunadaur, and not from Juiblex itself. Moreover, unlike Zinzerena below, it seems some cultists of Juiblex are aware of this. The Temple of Juiblex described in Llurth Dreier in Polyhedron 140 suggests this, as do some other sources, and that they do so out of their depraved logic. Fiendish Codex: Hordes of the Abyss, on page 68, states openly that Juiblex either does not know of its worshippers and does not reward their loyalty.

To be clear, I am not against the presence of Juiblex as a separate deity, I do like that we have a mechanical way to tell its altars apart from those of Ghaunadaur, but the issue of consistency between its presence and that of other proxy powers is there, considering the evidence from the lore.

Zinzerena is known as dead and not worshiped from what I understand.

Demihuman deities states that she is worshipped but Lolth provides spells to the worshippers. As for her death it is far from completely certain. This is the quote from there:

In the drow city of Menzoberranzan, in the Underdark beneath the North where Lolth-or Lloth, as she is known there-appeared during the Time of Troubles, the Spider Queen has allowed rumors to spread of a new demipower of chaos and assassins, Zinzerena the Hunted. While Zinzerena was once a legendary drow assassin and later an emerging demipower of a world other than Abeir-Toril, the Spider Queen recently slew Zinzerena or at least banished her influence from the Realms and assumed her aspect as a test to see if additional divine aspects increased or decreased the total (albeit fragmented) divine power available.

The underlined text is from me, but in essence this excerpts proves that:

- The worship of Zinzerena is alive even after her supposed death, because Lolth herself encourages it in secret.
- Worshippers of Zinzerena do not know or do not accept her death, they would not worship her otherwise, as they are adamantly against Lolth.
- The original Zinzerena may very well be alive, and her aspect is simply taken by Lolth in the same way Ghaunadaur takes that of Juiblex and of the Elder Elemental God. In other words she is not dead, it's her direct influence that has been banished, as suggested in the sourcebook.

I do plan to add some more, Malyk for example, as well.

I do also have plans for a dead god system but not entirely sure what it will be yet.

Now you got me excited and I will be really looking forward to these. <3

[Xerah]

It does take some annoying time to add all these to be honest, but I like the flavour so that's why I want to do it. I feel it also adds a number of character concepts, which really can be done without, but having the actual name there makes it seem more real. Like, you can worship mushrooms without seeing Zuggy when you -date, but it makes it more impactful when you can.

As for what I'm adding:

Celestials (but you can't worship, only attune)
Maztican
Zakharan
Kara-turan

Also, there will be some syngeries between certain deities, for example, Juiblex and Ghaunadaur or the Triad, etc.

[Itikar]

I feel it also adds a number of character concepts, which really can be done without, but having the actual name there makes it seem more real. Like, you can worship mushrooms without seeing Zuggy when you -date, but it makes it more impactful when you can.

I wholeheartedly agree with this, and not just for -date, but also for seeing the mechanical altars or other mechanical aspects of the deity in game. Not to mention the difference in alignment and aspects. This is not so much the case for Juiblex or Zinzerena above, but it is definitely a case for instance for Ibrandul and Leira, who were both Chaotic Neutral powers, whereas Shar and Cyric are Neutral Evil and Chaotic Evil respectively, so there is an actual mechanical incompatibility for divine classes. I.e. Leira and Ibrandul could have Chaotic Good divine ministers whereas their replacements do not allow that mechanically.

Celestials (but you can't worship, only attune)
Maztican
Zakharan
Kara-turan

Also, there will be some syngeries between certain deities, for example, Juiblex and Ghaunadaur or the Triad, etc.

*rubs his hands* Lovely!

Question about the worship but only attuning: how will one be able to attune if no priest can consacrate altars to them, as they cannot worship? Is a new attuning system at the study that is independent from altars?

Also, I wish to state, as I am not sure if it was entirely clear, my post is not to express any negativity, I am in fact very enthusiast of these changes and I thank you for the time and dedication for making the server even more enjoyable and varied. My feedback is meant to be constructive and to point out discrepancies to address for improving the system further and aid to make it better within my small capacity.

[Kalopsia]

Is there any chance for shadow mages to be allowed to worship other deities that commonly grant followers access to the shadow weave?
Vhaeraun, for example. In lore, Vhaeraunite shadow mages are absolutely a thing, yet they're currently not mechanically supported on the server.

[Xerah]

Question about the worship but only attuning: how will one be able to attune if no priest can consacrate altars to them, as they cannot worship? Is a new attuning system at the study that is independent from altars?

Also, I wish to state, as I am not sure if it was entirely clear, my post is not to express any negativity, I am in fact very enthusiast of these changes and I thank you for the time and dedication for making the server even more enjoyable and varied. My feedback is meant to be constructive and to point out discrepancies to address for improving the system further and aid to make it better within my small capacity.

I'm sure you know but worship of celestials is considered a sin, so no one should do it (but I know people would if I left it). We're not quite sure how we'll deal with it yet, but at the very least, with altars which are module altars will be added.

Oh, I didn't take it as negative, no worries and appreciate the feedback.