Climb skill

[Itikar]

I am perfectly aware this is a preliminary stage of the update and that things may likely change or be addressed, however, we found ourselves now in the situation where many old characters, rogue, rangers, monks, etc. went from being awesome climbers to extremely lousy ones, which is not exactly the best for rp continuity and consistency. I really hope that some form of relevel or skill remix will be granted to these characters, or to most characters really, at least once the last of these new skills is introduced.

There are also considerations about the increasing skill point crunch for characters, which is becoming increasingly taxing, not so much for the sake of playing a factotum, but simply because with so many "must have" skills, the skill picks tend to draw toward the usual suspects. I don't think, however, that as of right now climb is a really significant skill in this regard. Few areas use it and in general it is quite marginal, moreover dedicated climber classes do not have so few skill points, so the issue there is mostly one of skill point reallocation in my opinion.

I think the main issue is actually that of the climb system altogether, not just the skill. In my experience so far I have found climb checks to be either very annoying or irrelevant. When they are irrelevant they could as well not be there in the first place, but when they were relevant I found that they simply limited access to areas and initiatives in a way that locked doors and traps simply did not. For the latters one ought just bring along a rogue, if the trap or door were particularly nasty. There are some exceptions to this but in general it is how it works. Moreover area design in that regard almost always offers a second route that let people progress bypassing the locked doors or the traps. The same could not be said for the climb checks I encountered, unless one used the likes of yoink or other powerful and expensive means. In conclusion I very much would like climb checks to become more similar to how open lock and disable trap checks are now, both in regard of gear helping out with them, and in area design that allows other solutions, without shutting people out with few recourses.

[Ryan1017]

Yeah, this climb change seems kind of... bizarre. I can't imagine any reason someone would actually want to put points in climb. It seems way too situational to be of actual use. This just seems like it's going to discourage people even more from going to areas that have a climb check.

[Irongron]

Gear will now help out with them, and is likely I'll be adding objects like +4 gloves to matrix.

Classes should easily be able to reclaim the lost bonuses.

+1 per level though, at this stage was too much on top of an inevitable skill and items, we simply do not have enough hard climb points to justify that. Even as it was, that +1 made it far too easy in most locations. Once climb has a greater role in module design I will likely re-add the bonus.

I'll also absolutely look at increasing points for skill starved characters, and offer rebuilds when that happens. Right now though? It is still too soon. There are still 3 more skills I wish looked at first.

With items available, for now, I think few characters will need to invest. The key difference is that now those who simply barred from some areas (low dex/str non Climb classes) have a means to train where they did not before.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I want a Climb skill. It makes a lot more sense than before.

I just want a list of "popular" climb spots so I know what I'm getting into when I invest. Right now, I forget where relevant climb spots are.

If like "every other dungeon" or "every other region" had 1 climb spot, and that was the design philosophy, boy oh boy I'll give you my 33 ranks.

Right now, I just struggle to get excited because I don't know where Climbing is the most relevant. I think some areas should remain FOIG, but I think we should get a nice solid list of "common knowledge."

[Itikar]

Right now though? It is still too soon.

Absolutely, I raised the point only because I felt the issue should be brought to attention. As for the classes I agree that +1 per level was way too much, although perhaps a much humbler bonus still based on levels, similarly to how it is now for swashbuckler may be nice to have for the old climber classes.

But for now, yes, we should definitely wait and see what happens.

[The Kriv]

back in the days of 3rd (and 3.5) 'climb' was a skill you had to invest actual skill points into. -Same with "Use Rope" It was a Class Skill for all martial classes, and cross-class for non-martial classes (Maybe an exception in there iirc)

Now that we have hacks... it might be cool to be able to use the "LORE" skill to enable something like these things... where you are not AUTOMATICALLY skillful just because of your class... but you 'trade' points you dump into LORE for points in these other skills (since they would have been part of your 3rd/3.5 edition character sheet anyway)

maybe that you can at anytime... through talking to a FOIG npc trainer... TRAIN in climb.. or use rope.. or maybe some other skills... and the act of training subtracts points from LORE and boosts a local variable on your character that maintains your Climb or UseRope skill.

and the maximum is 1:1 for every martial class and 0.5 : 1 for every non-martial class ... with a boost of +3 if your FIRST class was a martial class


that way, you can always skill-dump at a later time .. but you can only max these skills to a max limit based on the ACTUAL classes your character is made up of.

--this would prevent the wizard(27) / rogue(3) being just as good a climber as Rogue(30)

the max the Wizard/rogue above would be able to reach would be 18... or 21, if that character took rogue at first level.


With the hacks, maybe doing it this way it could be coded that when the LORE skill gets reduced (when the points are redirected into the custom skills) that they can still be made up at a later level, so that you only need worry about NOT doing the dump at lvl 30, so you can always make back up any lore you want in subsequent levels.


--note: This could also be cool for things like "Wilderness Skill" or "Knowledge" skills -remember, when you used to have to take "Knowledge Religion" or "Knowledge geography" to at your old D&D campaigns?



This system might also be more doable if we did away with 'Discipline' as a thing you invest skill points into... and just GAVE EVERYONE discipline skill that they would already be investing in anyway... then free up these skill points to be re-invested in secondary skill sets like "climb" and "Use Rope" and folk wouldn't be gimping their characters.

[TooManyPotatoes]

Heya I have some questions to help me comprehend this.

I'm led to believe this is the new calculation for climb:

STR Modifier + DEX Modifier + Climb skill ranks + Climb bonus from items + (Swashbuckler levels/2) - Armor Check penalties

Was the old simply:

STR Modifier + DEX Modifier + Climb skill ranks + Climb bonus from some classes (rogue, etc) - Armor Check penalties?

Has the climb DC anywhere changed?

Thank you!

[Drowboy]

How many climbing spots are in the module?

Is craftable climb gear going to have other relevant attributes, or will people have to carry a set of climb gear to get to certain places?

Grappling hook?

Why couldn't this just be tumble or disciple?

tl;dr feedback: seems unnecessary, further adding feat tax to a server environment where every skill point matters

[Ork]

Request: change discipline to athletics and tumble to acrobatics. All the sudden a lot of these skills could fall within those two.

[AstralUniverse]

As if we didnt already have enough skills to take into account and 60%-100% of our inventory space dedicated to situational gear. I really think this should be tied to tumble if anything.

[Borin Drakkmurl]

My question is actually about the climbing rope/lasso climbing/rappel system that Dunshine had implemented and I always thought was awesome.

Is this still in place? Tied to this skill too?
I have found 0 new ones in all the new areas, and they all have spots that are just begging for it.

Was my character just not skilled in the proper areas to spot them?

[TimeAdept]

Request: change discipline to athletics and tumble to acrobatics. All the sudden a lot of these skills could fall within those two.

Nice. I dig this. Just do this.

[legionetrangere]

Request: change discipline to athletics and tumble to acrobatics. All the sudden a lot of these skills could fall within those two.

I second this. My rogue will have 35+ DEX, 33 tumble, 32 discipline. around 16sh STR... but is miserable at climbing a rope. I mean, its not like this new 'climb' skill will grant the toon the required skill to join Cirque du soleil. He's just trying to overcome a cliff or something like that.

And to add to that, I second the person who said this seems too much situational. Even if it this new skill proves necessary in some areas, I don't see the entire module being refited to soundly justify its inclusion.

These are my humble thoughts.

At the end of the day I'll sign down anything that is decided by the Irongron and the team. I have faith that they brought us thus far in a early 2000's game. I'm sure they'll continue to lead the way for many more years, I hope.

Thanks

[Might-N-Magic]

Does this mean this project is dead?
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=25828&hilit=secondary+skills

I'll also absolutely look at increasing points for skill starved characters, and offer rebuilds when that happens. Right now though? It is still too soon. There are still 3 more skills I wish looked at first.

Please no. Skill utility is a cornerstone of class-balance as much as being able to cast spells or hit for 200+ damage crits. Doing this just means everyone can do everything and being skill-monkey classes with 6-8 skill points meaning nothing when wizards, clerics, and fighters all can buy everything needed to utterly min/max.

We don't need to see paladins, weaponmasters, sorcerers, and clerics with discipline/listen/spot/tumble/spellcraft/umd/and lore unless those guys are point-buying deep into INT.

[Irongron]

Does this mean this project is dead?
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=25828&hilit=secondary+skills

It's not dead, no, but climb would not have been a great fit for current thinking on it. Also that is likely still some way off, and I really needed Climb active for the new city, which should be ready a good deal sooner.

[Nitro]

Request: change discipline to athletics and tumble to acrobatics. All the sudden a lot of these skills could fall within those two.

This would be a very elegant solution that allows the team to add whatever skill checks they want (Swimming or what have you) without bloating skills further.

[Irongron]

Request: change discipline to athletics and tumble to acrobatics. All the sudden a lot of these skills could fall within those two.

This would be a very elegant solution that allows the team to add whatever skill checks they want (Swimming or what have you) without bloating skills further.

I have thought about both of these for secondary skills when that time comes, but wouldn't want to add them what are already very useful skills, with plenty of utility, though I totally agree the solution is very elegant.

It is likely the next time we add a new skill (rather than replace the old) it will all be done via secondary skills, fed via a different pool akin to crafting skills.

[Irongron]

My question is actually about the climbing rope/lasso climbing/rappel system that Dunshine had implemented and I always thought was awesome.

Is this still in place? Tied to this skill too?
I have found 0 new ones in all the new areas, and they all have spots that are just begging for it.

Was my character just not skilled in the proper areas to spot them?

There are some lasso points in the new areas, but not many (they are a pain to set up and only really suitable on certain terrains (crossing pits, basically)

But whether it is a lasso point, or a climb point, the skill being called is the same, and is unchanged. Lasso points are purely areas where a rope is REQUIRED. I would like to have the new climb skill check if one has a rope though, so that all normal climb points are boosted by carrying one.

The new city however, already has a great many climb points set up, which will become accessbile when it does. My immediate next project will be a rework of the Dark Spires, which will also use many.

I am also going to adding new climb points soon, these will be appear as visible 'nodes', that anyone can see [Climb], using it will then open a dialog, letting you know the difficulty (how hard it is) and the risk (how much you could injure yourself) before asking you to confirm the attempt. Unlike other climb points this will have both a 'succeed' and 'fail' destination marker (sometimes the same), and i you fail, you 'fall' to the specificied point, and take damage appropriate to the fall. An example would be climbing a rockface, the climb itself may be easy, but the fall potentially fatal. I currently have this drawn up so that carrying a rope will partially mitigate the risk of a fall. 'Climb attempt failed. Your rope has prevented a severe fall'

[Irongron]

Heya I have some questions to help me comprehend this.

I'm led to believe this is the new calculation for climb:

STR Modifier + DEX Modifier + Climb skill ranks + Climb bonus from items + (Swashbuckler levels/2) - Armor Check penalties

Was the old simply:

STR Modifier + DEX Modifier + Climb skill ranks + Climb bonus from some classes (rogue, etc) - Armor Check penalties?

Has the climb DC anywhere changed?

Thank you!

So this system should be exactly the same as before...

BUT

Certain classes no longer +1 per level.
Air Genasi and Swashbuckler get a bonus instead of an automatic success.

plus...

ANYONE can now invest in ranks to improve the skill
Items can be found/created to improve the skill
Bard Song or other general skill boosting abilities will improve the skill.

I very much believe this was a worthwhile change to bring it in line with other skills, and to prevent such such being absolute.

[Skarain]

Will Climb be included in the skills boosted by Divine Trickery?

Would be neat.

[legionetrangere]

Does this mean this project is dead?
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=25828&hilit=secondary+skills

I'll also absolutely look at increasing points for skill starved characters, and offer rebuilds when that happens. Right now though? It is still too soon. There are still 3 more skills I wish looked at first.

Please no. Skill utility is a cornerstone of class-balance as much as being able to cast spells or hit for 200+ damage crits. Doing this just means everyone can do everything and being skill-monkey classes with 6-8 skill points meaning nothing when wizards, clerics, and fighters all can buy everything needed to utterly min/max.

We don't need to see paladins, weaponmasters, sorcerers, and clerics with discipline/listen/spot/tumble/spellcraft/umd/and lore unless those guys are point-buying deep into INT.

Heartily agree with this.
The skill distribution among the classes seems, at least in view, to be quite alright.

I think we should keep the min/max possibilities to a bare minimum and not to enhance it by giving more skills to Paladins, Fighters and Clerics.

[Drowboy]

If, like the announcement says, the intention is to keep adding skills (and the intention mentioned here, of having those skills be relevant to future development/reworked areas) eventually something is going to have to give, min-max concerns or not.

[wulfburk]

i think it might be best adding a separate skill pool (like the trade skill points) for climb, for these 3 to be added skills, and maybe also for a couple of current skills that make sense to be available for all, like ride, bluff, appraise.

These skills could work separately in that you gain points on them as you practice on them. Though perhaps an initial commitment might be necessary for that. So if you are climbing the ropes in the spires all the time, you become good at it..

This way you are not changing the balance of the current game but also you are adding some cool stuff.

[Irongron]

i think it might be best adding a separate skill pool (like the trade skill points) for climb, for these 3 to be added skills, and maybe also for a couple of current skills that make sense to be available for all, like ride, bluff, appraise.

These skills could work separately in that you gain points on them as you practice on them. Though perhaps an initial commitment might be necessary for that. So if you are climbing the ropes in the spires all the time, you become good at it..

This way you are not changing the balance of the current game but also you are adding some cool stuff.

Climb is the only skill being added, the other 3 skills are existing ones I wish to rework.

When we do eventually add secondary skills, they will be fed via a different pool, and likely work with unlocking tiers, rather than point spend.

[Baron Saturday]

While I'm excited for more areas with interesting traversal mechanics, the implementation of this change is a bit frustrating. Rolling out the climb skill before climb-related items have been added and without offering relevels means that existing characters lose access to areas that require climb to reach (upper Dark Spires come to mind), at least until they level up and can do a skill dump - or get a bunch of dweomered climb gear, I guess?

Also, just to confirm: (quotes snipped for relevancy)

I'm led to believe this is the new calculation for climb:

STR Modifier + DEX Modifier + Climb skill ranks + Climb bonus from items + (Swashbuckler levels/2) - Armor Check penalties

Was the old simply:

STR Modifier + DEX Modifier + Climb skill ranks + Climb bonus from some classes (rogue, etc) - Armor Check penalties?

So this system should be exactly the same as before...

This implies that the climb skill will benefit from both str AND dex, instead of just str as in PnP? Is that correct?