Heresy

[Xerah]

Have people been using this system.

What’s good? What’s bad?

Do you like the altar flip?

Other comments?

[LichBait]

I'd use it if I could. Not a fan of the clerics needing the special Gift of Devotion to take a heresy. Seems like you'd want to be able to flip clerics better to spread the heresy faith, and have non-clerics start out with the special Gift of Devotion if they want to begin the heresy. Clerics are the ones who should start out naturally and more easily, then proselytize and bring in new faith members through IC means. Though that's just my opinion.

Addendum: It's pretty cool that the heresies are represented though. A niche bit, but also rich section of RP to be mechanically supported is very cool.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Maybe this can be opportunity for someone to explain to me what exactly the heresy system is.

Is this just more deity options?

Does it just interact with piety mechanics?

The only heresy I've been brewing over is Amaunator, so if I wanted to play a Bedine follower... I'd just... pick the heresy and it'd be like a normal deity?

It definitely would be something cool if I was still playing Medici and making up Sharran conspiracy theories.

edit: Oh, wait, I have to use a Gift just to be able to use this? Why? I don't understand. I'm so confused.

[Itikar]

The gift of devotion for every divine class seems a bit much to me, and it limits the spread of the heresy.

Sincerely I would prefer if heresies were treated like deities, you can take them as a divine class if you match the right alignment, and you only need gift of devotion for racially limited ones (i.e. a human who wants to follow the Freth heresy should need the gift of devotion, but a drow should not imho).

Overall though they are a very nice addition, and I hope they will be expanded to cover more cults or heresies in the lore, like the Shadow Spider, etc.

[Red Ropes]

I was involved in why these things are restricted; compare it to racial restrictions. These heresies for the most part are regionally locked in the greater lore. They happen in specific areas - its meant to keep them somewhat special and concious. In the same way that we restrict it so you can't just have human clerics of Corellon everywhere from the get go.

That said; I think there could be ways to convert in game but it should have some depth to it. Religious sites that are basically like boons where you have to do something specific to unlock your heresy for Divine Class converts.

GoD btw is not a bad gift to take. While sure you usually give up one of the other useful things; a non-div who takes it gets all of the Consecration/Desecration functions and effectively doesn't have to pray anymore. They max out at 3 piety a tic and get access to a few things out there like the RH.

I do think clerics / classes that get most of what is given from the thing should probably get some sort of discount/bonus too, but even then if you're a multiclassed cleric you get full piety tics which is nice.

But the long and short of why there are restrictions on heresies: heresies can become popular on their own but they have begun somewhere else (except the Freth Heresy, which, like I said we could probably make sites of devotion for heresies to convert in a meaningful way.)

Heresies are mechanically different deities, but, they have the synergies to show you there is some sort of dupe. The heresies in FR except for maybe the Amaunator Risen Sun heresy are not explicit. There are no "facts" there are no obvious answers; some of them may be actual movements in their religions, others are schemes by other gods most likely.

(and nothing stops you as a player from making new heresies with what exists. But these are just the ones with mechanical support in the special category, it doesn't make them not heresies though - as long as they are plausible.)

edit: also some "heresies" didnt make the cut because they're basically dead by Arelith's reckoning or explicitly do not get spells; such as the She-Spider Cult. These are things you can do on your own.

further clarification; the heresy system expands upon the deities in the sense that some heresies are a bit shifted from the entire premise of a deity. In the case of Amaunator - there is an aspect of Lathander's current church which has grandfathered Amanautor worship. They are not heretics and are LG; they are allowed to say that Lathander was born from Amanautor, but not that Amaunator is Lathander.

The Amanautor heresies are heresies in that they say Lathander becomes Amaunator again.

You'll also notice that they have different alignment thresholds and different aspects most times than their parent religions to represent their different ideas.

oh, and as long as you're not divine you can just set your deity like normal. That's just meant to show how heresies can grow among the "masses". It's a lot easier to go "I believe this" than, "i believe this and get powers."

[Itikar]

GoD btw is not a bad gift to take.

Oh I know very well that it is great, but keep in mind some characters may find it difficult or penalizing to take it, as they can take fewer gifts or even none at all, depending on the ECL adjustment of their race or template. Not to mention old characters who may wish to convert or roleplay the heresy, while being divine classes of compatible alignments, but cannot due to them being unable to change the gifts unless going through a very costly remake.

[monkeywithstick]

Was thinking Ibrandul might be an interesting heresy as an alternate identity for Shar.

[strong yeet]

The only thing I dislike about it is that, despite the drow-focused nature of the Freth Heresy gift, any drow priest(ess) will suffer mechanically for choosing Gift of Devotion -- anything else merely loses a minor gift, like Crafting, but drow have a specific limitation due to their racials. Even with the ability to take +2 WIS on a minor gift, they are one of the worst cleric races; playing a heretic on top of that is even worse.

You could argue that's a problem of drow being implemented in a very awkward way more than any problem with the heresy system, and I'd say you're probably right.

Otherwise I really like the system and I think it's really cool.

[Xerah]

The only thing I dislike about it is that, despite the drow-focused nature of the Freth Heresy gift, any drow priest(ess) will suffer mechanically for choosing Gift of Devotion -- anything else merely loses a minor gift, like Crafting, but drow have a specific limitation due to their racials. Even with the ability to take +2 WIS on a minor gift, they are one of the worst cleric races; playing a heretic on top of that is even worse.

You could argue that's a problem of drow being implemented in a very awkward way more than any problem with the heresy system, and I'd say you're probably right.

Otherwise I really like the system and I think it's really cool.

I do completely agree with this and considering a few ways to fix this.

[chris a gogo]

I honestly don't understand the point of this system.

Could someone please explain it's usage to me to?

FYI.
I fully understand what heresy is it's the practicing a officially sanctioned religion in ways that clashes with the churches doctrine.
But as i can play a LN cleric of ilmater with evil and death domains(because domains aren't enforced on deities) that kills the injured to spare them from suffering what difference does this mechanical system make to that?