Guldorand Caves

[Aleilsum Ellrum]

A while ago this was upgraded with some caves on the way to the Talossian Stronghold. The mobs in there are way too powerful though compared to the dungeon; hard-hitting orcs combined with Cubes and Oozes who paralyze.

The approach to the dungeon shouldn't be harder than the dungeon itself.

The orcs on the approach need toning down significantly.

Compare the pre-update visits to the dungeon with the post-update visits; you'll see a difference.


The Talossians is a really enjoyable dungeon but it's close to impossible to get to at the right levels and hard even at 22. I suspect it's only high levels tryign to get to the Abyss who go there now. It's a good, challenging, enjoyable dungeon which is worth revisting but the approach is just a joyless, lethal and offputting grind atm.

[Tyrantos]

I agree. I would suggest to either tone down the orcs, or tune up the Talassians and make sure the writ reflects that!

[Drogo Gyslain]

I have had similar thoughts. The Talassian stronghold is by far inferior to the new cavern that is its access. I think for the level of difficulty the writ is that the Talassians are correct, however the spawns in the cavern should be toned down indeed.

[JubJub]

Or maybe make it so you don't have to go so far into the Orc caves to get to the talassian area.

[Red_Wharf]

Or maybe make it so you don't have to go so far into the Orc caves to get to the talassian area.

You don't need to. There's a transition to the Orc Caves outside Stonehold's main entrance that puts you very close to the Stonehold Mines. Two potions of invisibility is likely all that you'll need to avoid the Orcs.

[JubJub]

Problem is most folks don't know that, there are at least three different ways to get in those caves, and those cave slimes can see hidden.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Yeah, the slimes are more dangerous than the orcs are.

[Aleilsum Ellrum]

You don't need to. There's a transition to the Orc Caves outside Stonehold's main entrance that puts you very close to the Stonehold Mines. Two potions of invisibility is likely all that you'll need to avoid the Orcs.

Eh, didn't know this either

Overall I bet there's a lot less people go to the Talossians now though and it's a nice dungeon.

The cave slimes are difficult but doable if you have potions, but you have to get them down first to stop yourself getting paralyzed, and in the meantime the orcs hit too hard.

And it's just a bit topsy turvy that the approach is harder than the dungeon.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

How are the other writs in the Guldorand area, the new caves? After experiencing the new goblin cave in the Shyr, and the new Spriggan cave, I've been hesitant to try out the other new writ areas.

[AstralUniverse]

Dont know how I feel about this dungeon.

I've said a while ago that it's by far more difficult than older dungeons of lvl 20 writs and around it. Same for the Border Reavers. Really tough mobs for that level. Theoretically, having to go through the cave to reach the tallassians shouldnt be a big deal as they're both supposed to be lvl 15-20 dungeons but again, the orcs are just nuts and and it's not like the place lacks dispells or crowd controls as a trade off.

That said, I dont know if it's the new dungeons that are too difficult or the older ones that are too easy. It could be that the mobs are mathematically alike but the new dungeons are just more smartly designed in terms of how smart the AI is. And if it's the latter, then it might be a good thing but I also feel like the mobs have better base stats on top of that, significantly.

[msterswrdsmn]

The Talassians aren't terrible; there are a few npcs that are dangerous in there, and the risk of getting mobbed is very real, but overall, they're fairly managable for their intended level. The biggest threat being swarmed by IGMS spawns or rolling a 1 on a g-sanc destruction spell, with the least threatening being the midlevel bronze-spear wielding soldiers.

And then theres the cave leading to them

Its much worse.

1. The orcs hit harder than most of the Talassian spawns
2. The slimes and oozes can either paralyze, or cast death armor on themselves to damage anything that hits them.
3. Take a wrong turn, and you'll run into the boss orc, who is far, far stronger than the Talassian boss.
4. The mobs have a fairly high detection range. Combine this with the relatively clustered nature of the cave, and running into double or triple spawns that just straight up overwhelm you is a real issue.

I've found a lot of dead people in the cave, whom I assume were trying to get to the Talassians for a writ. If you can slog through the cave, the Talassians are a joke in comparison once you get a feel for the npcs/area

[Maladus]

I just ran into this same issue, was dealing with the orcs and other spawns fine but got hit with the paralyze from the slimes twice...died twice. I think this dungeon would be fine personally if you just removed the slimes and either left them out permanently or replaced them with something less cheese.

[Aleilsum Ellrum]

That said, I dont know if it's the new dungeons that are too difficult or the older ones that are too easy.

I strongly feel that the old dungeons were the right level of challenge for the 16-20's or so though a slight boost to the rewards would be nice. The new caves incl the Spriggans are a considerable challenge if you are level 20, have a perfect build, excellent kit and don't open a doorway to find 6 on the other side, but if you've the wrong build or a good build but taken an RP feat or two, have medium-level kit or are unlucky, they're no go zones.

I think that softening the new dungeons would simply increase the enjoyment and make them more used, because right now they're fairly much to be avoided. It's a shame because a lot of work went into them.

[Maladus]

I suppose there’s also the argument to be made that some dungeons are meant for groups, after all D&D was never really meant to be played solo. I personally believe there is a place for that in Arelith too, but I feel like it’s best reserved for high epics where the rewards are worth finding a group to go dungeon diving for.

[AstralUniverse]

1. The orcs hit harder than most of the Talassian spawns
2. The slimes and oozes can either paralyze, or cast death armor on themselves to damage anything that hits them.
3. Take a wrong turn, and you'll run into the boss orc, who is far, far stronger than the Talassian boss.
4. The mobs have a fairly high detection range. Combine this with the relatively clustered nature of the cave, and running into double or triple spawns that just straight up overwhelm you is a real issue.

And dispels. There's dispels too on top of all that.

I strongly feel that the old dungeons were the right level of challenge for the 16-20's or so though a slight boost to the rewards would be nice. The new caves incl the Spriggans are a considerable challenge if you are level 20, have a perfect build, excellent kit and don't open a doorway to find 6 on the other side, but if you've the wrong build or a good build but taken an RP feat or two, have medium-level kit or are unlucky, they're no go zones.

I think that softening the new dungeons would simply increase the enjoyment and make them more used, because right now they're fairly much to be avoided. It's a shame because a lot of work went into them.

I think the newer dungeons are just more 'optimal' in regards to how the AI works and how the mobs are designed. The mobs can be the same level with the same stats as in older dungeons but they have +1 weapons, or 4 apr instead of 3, or they just cast better spells from the same spellbook, or there are simply more types of mobs so more stuff to prepare against. insane traps too. Could be many reasons. I'm on camp that's in favor of such things and I find them more immersive overall. That's why I'm not sure it's the new dungeons that need a tweak, rather than the old ones. But over all, I wont deny that the new dungeons are far more difficult within the same level ranges respectively.

I suppose there’s also the argument to be made that some dungeons are meant for groups, after all D&D was never really meant to be played solo. I personally believe there is a place for that in Arelith too, but I feel like it’s best reserved for high epics where the rewards are worth finding a group to go dungeon diving for.

There's that argument. And I dont know if I believe in that argument. Some dungeons just happen to be solo-able for some classes because of how the dungeon is designed. There's no "solo-able vs party focused" factor going in to this. This is just something that players figure out "this, I can solo, this I cant" and some dungeons are just harder than others in general.

The problem in this particular case is that if you pick the tallassians writ - which you can solo - you need a party to get to it, because you cant solo your way there. That's backwards.

[Irongron]

I've toned down the orcs here slightly, including removing the dispels (the 'Normal' they can still cast Lesser Dispel) from the warlocks, reducing AB and damage, and lowering their save bonuses, will be live after the next reset.

[Maladus]

Huzzah!

[Aleilsum Ellrum]

Thank you Irongron.

Could I ask if the Spriggans have also been toned down a bit? they are equally insanely hard for a 15-20 quest that's supposed to guide you through different areas of Guldo.

The approach caves tweak is much appreciated though!

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Both the cave slime and the cube slime are still an issue, can their paralysis bolt be removed? I was paralyzed right as I entered the cave, which feels really unfair. Both slimes already have trueseeing and a slow bolt attack, and the cave slimes have a damage shield on top of that. The bolt seems like it has a ridiculously high hit rate as well. If you don't have a means to freedom of movement in this cave, you are absolutely screwed if you come across a slime.

Screenshot to show what I mean, I entered the cave and had no recourse against this slime paralyzing me: