Leadership (megathread)

[Archon]

What Drowboy suggest sounds reasonable.

I have a new character with enough leadership to grant movement boost to the party, but it feels silly a leader can't "keep up" with them, and as such leads from "behind" while the boost itself is not whole lot. It would make sense an inspiring leader would be rallying and at the front with everybody else.

[Security_Blanket]

It would make sense an inspiring leader would be rallying and at the front with everybody else.

Real leaders ride a horse, that'll solve your movement speed issue.

[Archon]

It would make sense an inspiring leader would be rallying and at the front with everybody else.

Real leaders ride a horse, that'll solve your movement speed issue.

Perhaps ironically I had to choose between the leadership skill and ride skill, but you are not wrong!

[CNS]

So I actually took the time to work this out.

The build in question gets to about 70 not 75 AC unless you use some form of expertise which then lowers the AB.

Lets compare from this point against a fairly bog standard Ftr/WM/Rog since its been used as the balance stick before (54AC, 49AB the usual set up).

Your Hin Blackguard suffers the usual problem dex builds have, it does no damage. It can sit there for a long time being a tank but it can't really deliver anything. Rougly 99 damage a round on average against the above weapon master when you have divine might going, actually less than that as I didn't calculate the impact of improved invisibility if we assume everyone has the basic set of buffs and good gear on them. You can almost outheal the damage from the base build through heal kits.

Then we have the problem of wind up. Assuming you have the fiend out and buffed with all long term buffs already(and I'll use a balor as the base example here given its generally seen as the best for this kind of scenario) you have to then haste, cast divine might, divine shield and use your PDK fear (the rest of the stuff being instant actions). Thats 2 rounds - three if you don't use a haste potion and instead rely on blinding speed.

So what does this fiend look like? After improving its base stats from Epic Caster Level, typical buffs, the knight buffs and leadership as well as the divine feats we end up with something roughly around 52 AB, and 49AC.

Against the weapon master this is a threat when combined with the base blackguard, the fiend should be kicking out about 135 Damage a round.

However in return the Weapon master can expect to deliver about 363 damage a round to the fiend. Closer to 460 if it can get a round or two before the fiend is fully buffed, which is likely as it takes you two rounds to bring everything online.

The build hardly seems like a powerhouse to me, sure its probably great in PvE but we don't really balance around PvE unless it gets to extreams. In PvP the fiend drops quickly and then neither build can really do much to the other, if you forced them to stay next to each other eventually the divine build would run out of shields and mights and the weapon master would then be able to start damaging it especially as the knight abilities cool down, or they throw IE up and it ends when someone runs out of healing or the server resets. Hardly seems like something overpowered. For reference over a longer fight the Blackguards AC will vary as various buffs cooldown and are reapplyed, but the weapon master will be hitting for between 200 damage a round down to about 10 at the highest (everything up) and lowest points (Out of turn undeads and knight abilities on cooldown) of AC for the blackguard. Of course in such a long fight the blackguard can summon another fiend after 6 minutes, but this new fiend is worse as it comes out all fresh and unbuffed.

The blackguard needs to kill the weapon master through sneak attack damage, fiend bite back and fiend damage before the fiend is dropped. The objective is hampered because the blackguard wants to spend several rounds in its wind up, as without it the damage is even lower and the fiend will drop even quicker due to lower AC. You could try and run the fiend around benny hill style while your blackguard does the buff dance but the weapon master has a 50% speed advantage over the fiend due to haste and your window to actually damage the weapon master is closing.

But, rather than reiterating the eternal basic strengths and weaknesses of non-monk dex builds lets look at what a difference leadership made to that fiend.

Leaving out the saves and AC, which matter but aren't really the area of contention.

In this particular build we end up increasing its AB from 51 to 52 and adding in (what I assume is) a bonus attack at full AB. This is obviously a damage increase for the fiend. Lets look at this at various AC breakpoints. 50, 55 and 60.

Previously the old fiend would be expected to do around the following amounts of damage on average from this build each round.

50 - 115
55 - 79
60 - 44

The new leadership fiend will be doing about:

50 - 162
55 - 125
60 - 78

Is this an increase? Yes. Does it matter? Yes. How much? I don't know, but it doesn't feel entirely game breaking to me.

Also, the fiend has a decent crit range and multiplier, but its not anywhere near as effective as an actual weapon master, pocket WM is a fun way of describing it not a true reflection of its ability.

Appendix
--------------
Calculation for 70AC, 10 base, 3 enchantment on armor, 14 dex bonus, 6 shield, 4 deflection, 4 natural, 2 dodge, 4 haste, 1 small, 10 divine shield, 6 tumble, 2 armor skin, 4 knight fear.

[Edit - it should also be noted that this particular build is one built around buffing that Fiend as much as possible, other blackguard fiends (ie. ones that didn't take knight) are a lot weaker than the one shown here]

[-XXX-]

It's not game breaking. I was merely pointing out that they indirectly buffed a build tha was already outperforming everyone... and the buff was not negligable either.

[CNS]

It's not game breaking. I was merely pointing out that they indirectly buffed a build tha was already outperforming everyone... and the buff was not negligable either.

That is my point, you say its outperforming everyone but never how.

Do you mean it kills things faster in PvE? Is there a significant section of builds it struggled against before in PvP but now comes out a clear winner against?

I'm not trying to be a Pufferfish or pick on you specifically here I'm trying to move us past vague statements of something being OP and onto firm measurable ground.

[-XXX-]

It's fine. Blackguard is atm in a very similar spot that the prenerf pale masters used to be in.

PvP vs melee builds - very high AC. A build doesn't need to have stellar damage output if their AC is high enough. Ultimately they'll end up winning the damage race vs other melee builds by the virtue of not getting hit themselves - the opposition will either run away from the BG or die (eventually).
The fiend alone is probably a sufficient help to best most two-handers in a quick succession.

PvP vs casters - super high saves are making most DC based spells pointless. On top of that high AC makes even top tier enemy summons irrelevant.
-prays and heals can instantly negate the limited burst damage a mage can do.
The BG and their fiend can kill the caster easily if they get up close.


PvE - McHammer "spawns can't touch this" AC + the fiend can handle pretty much anything except some endgame bosses - 'nuff said.


It' very hard to be more specific than this. Probably isnstead of listing all the things a BG is, it'd be easier to lit the ones it isn't.

- its melee damage output is inferior to a WM. That's probably a good thing, considering how we're talking about a dedicated buildaround single gimmick here.
Even then, it might be a matter of some stat juggling, but the BG's damage output doesn't need to be necessarily anemic either.

- it's a worse mage than mages. Arguably - still can use wands and scrolls to access the best wards. Offensive arcane spell combos don't look so hot right now, so no real loss there.


Finally, while raw stats can be profoundly important, it's not the ultimate indicator of the bulid's final performance. Here are just some minor points to consider:

- will the build die in PvP when caught off guard? Probably, but less likely than other builds as their saves are passive, which makes the list of mandatory wards much shorter. The only weakness here that can be exploited is the considerable loss of AC due to being flat footed (that means if the character can be killed with a single flurry of attacks, this is the way).

- how much time in preparation does the build require to reach peak performance. Well, considering how the BG can go "haste, shield, might" right after lobbing a now considerably improved pit fiend into the mix, not much time when compared to most other builds.
This is a prime example of how the fiend doesn't need to be on par with actual WM builds - it just needs to be relevant enough not to be ignored.

[CNS]

I get you and I think you get to the heart of the matter.

Its not the leadership changes thats the problem, the fiend is not really any more or less relevant to the fight than it was before. It does a bit more damage and by that I mean if its hitting a normal melee PC that just stands there and takes it that PC will die very slightly quicker. It's not in the realms of shotgun PvP altough its still a buff.

The actual issue is being able to get AC's that move you out of range of melee focused builds AB's while also achieving saving throws that make you practically immune to DC based spells and abilities.

I agree that is a problem. I don't think the answer is nerfing leadership though, if you could bring the other aspects of the build in line leadership doesn't seem to be a problem.

[-XXX-]

Yeah, leadership by itself isn't the problem.
I consider it a step in the wrong direction for the time being though (having these incremental buffs being implemented before the AC meta has been addressed that is).

How to address AC builds without having the shotgun meta become the next problem? I wish that I knew, but I dunno.

[Ork]

AC isn't remotely the problem, but as is tradition- when you add a mechanic that favors a class disproportionately, instead of the new mechanic getting the wap- it's the now offending class that gets slapped with the nerf stick.

[CNS]

AC isn't remotely the problem, but as is tradition- when you add a mechanic that favors a class disproportionately, instead of the new mechanic getting the wap- it's the now offending class that gets slapped with the nerf stick.

Sure, ok then what are the problems?

[Complex]

I'd remove the extra APR and maybe even the AB from summons, or just make it for henchmen only, but I recall reading that the summon part was here to stay, so that's fine. Many builds can get outrageous AC and that is being addressed:

At the moment, DEX builds (including a number of divine DEX builds) are taking a lead on the server due to the extreme high AC that can be obtained. The following five changes are limited in scope, but additional options will be considered moving forward. To give an idea of some of these option that are being considered, they may include: heal potion changes, gear rework, time stop, small race tentacle immunity.

Issues also come from races like halfling that allow you to create a Blackguard that goes 8 CON, 21 DEX and 16 CHA base, with small size bonuses on top, which is a bit ungodly. However, since this is the Leadership thread, I'd take away the APR 100%, and then maybe take a look at top tier fiends and see if they need to be tweaked. Trashing fiends in an attempt to have henchmen see more use would be unfortunate.

[-XXX-]

AC isn't remotely the problem, but as is tradition- when you add a mechanic that favors a class disproportionately, instead of the new mechanic getting the wap- it's the now offending class that gets slapped with the nerf stick.

I think that's because players would rather see something new and shiny than something that's been polluting the environment for a while now. If the old stuff getd axed in the process... win-win.

Personally, I can get behind both perspectives. Ditching the APR from leadership would have been a quck cosmetic fix (by the virtue of not making something that's already bad even worse), but hardly systematic or relevant in the long term.

[Ork]

While that might be true, when Arelith is in a constant flux of mechanics the only that loses are the mechanically illiterate. People that know the number game rarely are out of favor for these changes. The other thing to note is that when a minor change (like leadership) unbalances a singular class, the following balance usually murders build diversity.

For instance, the PM AC change. A necessary change by all means for the spellcaster, but the conversion of untyped AC to dodge AC obliterated the melee PM- which didn't need a nerf to begin with.

[the grim yeeter]

While that might be true, when Arelith is in a constant flux of mechanics the only that loses are the mechanically illiterate. People that know the number game rarely are out of favor for these changes. The other thing to note is that when a minor change (like leadership) unbalances a singular class, the following balance usually murders build diversity.

For instance, the PM AC change. A necessary change by all means for the spellcaster, but the conversion of untyped AC to dodge AC obliterated the melee PM- which didn't need a nerf to begin with.

This might be one of the truest posts ever on these forums. I wish more people (especially of the team) realized this.

[Security_Blanket]

The simplest solution would be that Fiends/Undead do not benefit from the Leadership skill. This would also make sense as in the eyes of the fiend the mortal "inspiring" them through Leadership is ultimately beneath them. The undead either not meeting intelligence requirements or vampires likewise putting themselves above their mortal allies. Then the same benefit could be stripped from PC Vampires, Imps, and Rakshasa.

[monkeywithstick]

Extra votes do not appear to be based on base ranks.

I just got an extra vote in the mechanics test with no skill ranks at all.

[Zaphiel]

Extra votes do not appear to be based on base ranks.

I just got an extra vote in the mechanics test with no skill ranks at all.

Thanks for the report. Will be fixed. Do not forget to using bug forum next time. It can be missed in here.