Suggestion Discussion: Player Heads

[-XXX-]

The heads don't matter. It's not a necessary item to create great conflict RP.
Furthermore, the awkwardness that these items create in combination with the respawn system aside, they've been misused so often and in so many ways in the past, that many players take them with a grain of salt and/or straight up disregard them.

More often than not they can be seen as a proof that the player presenting them is competent at PvP and incompetent at RP.

This whole dismissive attitude of, "They killed me in PVP so they must obviously suck at RP!" does not help.

I can type multiple paragraphs with flowery descriptions all day long if I want. I can create interesting characters and story arcs. I've done so in the past. But soon as I see an animator and tell him to get rid of the undead and he refuses to take the out I generously offered suddenly I'm a terrible RPer because I corpse bashed them and all that other good RP I did with other people no longer counts apparently.

I'd argue if someone can't take a loss in PVP and write a story around that then maybe they are the one who needs to work on their RP skills. Some of my best stories have come from me losing and that has lead to some interesting interactions and character development. But when I lose I actually take the loss and act like I just got my butt kicked ICly, I don't show up at my killer's door with flaming bags of gibberling dung and spend time trying to OOCly convince everyone on discord I actually won. I've even done the whole gain sympathy and ruin their reputation angle.

There's probably a couple of ash trays in Sencliff and Anundor made out of my old characters' skulls and I'm fine with that. If there's any awkwardness around player heads it is probably because of the person getting killed still walking around refusing to accept that they ever died, not because of the person who killed them. I'm tired of hearing about how corpse bashing and head taking is "bad for RP" when it is more often the losers of a PVP encounter who resort to rule breaks such as griefing, metagaming, god-emoting, not taking death seriously, etc.

That's not what I was saying at all, but I certainly hope that fighting that strawman of yours worked for you

[matheusgraef]

If it were just somehow named "Trophy" rather than a specific body part even, but with a unique icon and confirmation of the character's identity, that'd be a good replacement.

This. Please do this, not a "finger".

[NPC Logger Number 2]

That's not what I was saying at all, but I certainly hope that fighting that strawman of yours worked for you

You literally said:

The heads don't matter. It's not a necessary item to create great conflict RP.
Furthermore, the awkwardness that these items create in combination with the respawn system aside, they've been misused so often and in so many ways in the past, that many players take them with a grain of salt and/or straight up disregard them.*

More often than not they can be seen as a proof that the player presenting them is competent at PvP and incompetent at RP.**

To which I replied:

This whole dismissive attitude of, "They killed me in PVP so they must obviously suck at RP!" does not help. **

I can type multiple paragraphs with flowery descriptions all day long if I want. I can create interesting characters and story arcs. I've done so in the past. But soon as I see an animator and tell him to get rid of the undead and he refuses to take the out I generously offered suddenly I'm a terrible RPer because I corpse bashed them and all that other good RP I did with other people no longer counts apparently.

I'd argue if someone can't take a loss in PVP and write a story around that then maybe they are the one who needs to work on their RP skills. Some of my best stories have come from me losing and that has lead to some interesting interactions and character development. But when I lose I actually take the loss and act like I just got my butt kicked ICly, I don't show up at my killer's door with flaming bags of gibberling dung and spend time trying to OOCly convince everyone on discord I actually won. I've even done the whole gain sympathy and ruin their reputation angle.

There's probably a couple of ash trays in Sencliff and Anundor made out of my old characters' skulls and I'm fine with that. If there's any awkwardness around player heads it is probably because of the person getting killed still walking around refusing to accept that they ever died, not because of the person who killed them.* I'm tired of hearing about how corpse bashing and head taking is "bad for RP" when it is more often the losers of a PVP encounter who resort to rule breaks such as griefing, metagaming, god-emoting, not taking death seriously, etc.

I'm convinced I'm not going to change anyone's mind. If people really want to hide the truth by removing or obscuring game mechanics so that they won't have to accept any consequence for dying besides a loss of XP there is probably nothing I can say to convince them otherwise. I'll say this, if player heads are removed, or changed to something that can't be used as proof of killing someone like a finger that could belong to anyone, I will just screenshot every kill I make and archive it for the inevitable case where someone refuses to take death seriously and goes so far as to lie about it.

[-XXX-]

stuff

Looting a character's corpse is a mechanically straightforward and uninteractive action. Heavy reliance on this can be considered lazy, unimaginative and minimal effort RP.
^ I hope that you'll now see the distinction between the statement above and saying "winning at PvP = bad at RP"

There are more creative ways of proving that a character has killed someone than killbashing their corpse and looting an item that will most likely be disrgegarded as a proof of deed anyway as there's no way of telling whether it's been obtained a day ago or half a year ago during an entirely unrelated plotline (...and whether it actually confirms a PvP kill at all ...and not some accidental find of a PvE gone poorly aftermath).

The notion of taking screenshots should lootable PC heads be removed is ridiculous. I am confident that such attempts to impress anyone would be met with very little understanding in a hypothetical scenario like this.
Furthermore it'd fit the description of using OOC means to share IC information = textbook definition of metagaming. I'd strongly advise against that.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

1. Looting a character's corpse is a mechanically straightforward and uninteractive action. Heavy reliance on this can be considered lazy, unimaginative and minimal effort RP.
^ I hope that you'll now see the distinction between the statement above and saying "winning at PvP = bad at RP"

2. There are more creative ways of proving that a character has killed someone than killbashing their corpse and looting an item that will most likely be disrgegarded as a proof of deed anyway as there's no way of telling whether it's been obtained a day ago or half a year ago during an entirely unrelated plotline.

3. The notion of taking screenshots should lootable PC heads be removed is ridiculous. I am confident that such attempts to impress anyone would be met with very little understanding in such hypothetical scenario.
Furthermore it'd fit the description of using OOC means to share IC information = textbook definition of metagaming. I'd strongly advise against this.

1. That's not what you originally said. You originally said:

More often than not they can be seen as a proof that the player presenting them is competent at PvP and incompetent at RP.

2. List them. They must be concrete mechanical proof not word of mouth or emoting or anything like that. I'm confident you can't list a single one besides player heads because that is the only mechanical proof of killing someone this server gives you. Emotes, word of mouth, witnesses, etc. do not count. I can easily bribe 3 people to claim IC that I killed your character even if I didn't.

3. I can ICly emote removing the head from a corpse after killing the person, I can ICly emote showing that head off, and I can OOCly prove that I did ICly remove the head with OOC screenshots. If players want to stubbornly ignore that I will report them for colluding with another player to ignore the consequences of that player's death and let the DM's handle it. I am wholly confident that the DM's do not want you to simply pretend it never happened if you get killed and that you will be the one punished if you try that kind of behavior, not the person who keeps screenshots as proof. The only thing ridiculous here is that we're actually discussing removing a game mechanic so you can ignore the consequences of dying and that so many people would actually side with you on that stance. I sincerely hope this is a vocal minority on the forum and that most players are better than this.

[Ninjimmy]

2. List them. They must be concrete mechanical proof not word of mouth or emoting or anything like that. I'm confident you can't list a single one besides player heads because that is the only mechanical proof of killing someone this server gives you. Emotes, word of mouth, witnesses, etc. do not count. I can easily bribe 3 people to claim IC that I killed your character even if I didn't.

Point of order; as I've said AND XXX have said two-three times (I swear to Tymora, if you make me go back and quote these from this thread when you snip it out of the replies...), the head isn't concrete proof, there's no time stamp and you can trade them between people. The head is as meaningless as hearsay it only proves a specific person died at some point and someone else smashed their corpse.

3. I can ICly emote removing the head from a corpse after killing the person, I can ICly emote showing that head off, and I can OOCly prove that I did ICly remove the head with OOC screenshots. If players want to stubbornly ignore that I will report them for colluding with another player to ignore the consequences of that player's death and let the DM's handle it. I am wholly confident that the DM's do not want you to simply pretend it never happened if you get killed and that you will be the one punished if you try that kind of behavior, not the person who keeps screenshots as proof. The only thing ridiculous here is that we're actually discussing removing a game mechanic so you can ignore the consequences of dying and that so many people would actually side with you on that stance. I sincerely hope this is a vocal minority on the forum and that most players are better than this.

OK, I have to ask the question now, who DID this to you? Because I've never encountered it, a lot of the people replying in this thread haven't, there does not appear to be a huge presence of people denying they died but you seem so, so, so hung up on it that there has to be an inciting event here, right? Have you flagged it to the DMs?

Plus, nobody is saying there shouldn't be a penalty, we're saying that if the only way in an RP setting you can prove you killed someone is a skull you're not using your words!

Hence why XXX said;

More often than not they can be seen as a proof that the player presenting them is competent at PvP and incompetent at RP.

[-XXX-]

Thank you. That's precise

[NPC Logger Number 2]

Point of order; as I've said AND XXX have said two-three times (I swear to Tymora, if you make me go back and quote these from this thread when you snip it out of the replies...), the head isn't concrete proof, there's no time stamp and you can trade them between people. The head is as meaningless as hearsay it only proves a specific person died at some point and someone else smashed their corpse.

This is a fair enough point, along with the fact they can be renamed. Instead of obscuring the truth further though, why not do the opposite and make it even more clear? Make it so heads can not be renamed, picked up, or traded, you can't drop them or put them in containers, you can only sell them to an NPC like with the monster heads. Slap a timestamp on them even, but don't have them expire. That way if some goober tries showing off a 6 month old head everyone can appropriately just roll their eyes at them.

OK, I have to ask the question now, who DID this to you? Because I've never encountered it, a lot of the people replying in this thread haven't, there does not appear to be a huge presence of people denying they died but you seem so, so, so hung up on it that there has to be an inciting event here, right? Have you flagged it to the DMs?

We are not supposed to talk about DM reports or specific rules infractions by specific players on the forums. It can and does happen though and when it does player heads are good to have.

Plus, nobody is saying there shouldn't be a penalty, we're saying that if the only way in an RP setting you can prove you killed someone is a skull you're not using your words!

WYSIWYG. Even if we remove the skulls I can still emote removing the head and showing it off. PVP and RP are not mutually exclusive, usually when people show off skulls they actually do emote it and use words. I can of course return to the settlement and say that I killed five drow by myself without any player heads, but people will probably just think my character is a liar and making it up. If I actually throw down five drow heads though, they might take my character more seriously.

If we remove player heads, that's just going to bring OOC into it because now we'll need to save and share screenshots to prove we aren't making stuff up anytime we win a big PVP and want to ICly boast about it. I don't want to start a big OOC debate where I have to shut some armchair skeptic up with imgur links every time I win a PVP, I just want to bring back a trophy and get head pats IC.

[Tyrantos]

How about making it last for like a week or two, and then there's a NPC which you can pay to have it uh.. "Processed" to last longer? For a high price?

[Drowboy]

Carrying people's heads around should be treated like the unacceptable serial killer behavior it is, basically anywhere except Andunor.

[NPC Logger Number 2]

How about making it last for like a week or two, and then there's a NPC which you can pay to have it uh.. "Processed" to last longer? For a high price?

I actually like this idea as it is more realistic and immersive. In real life a severed head would rot and decay and probably stink too bad to carry around with you for very long after a week or two, and it would definitely be suspicious. But if hero was to say kill the King of Necromancers or the Demon Lord of Pain they might very well want to see a taxidermist and have it stuffed and mounted above their fireplace. Putting a huge price on this like 500,000 gold would keep it rare so it wouldn't be rampantly abused. I think this combined with timestamps and keeping people from renaming/trading them would work great.

[-XXX-]

On a second thought, I'd like to react to this too:

3. I can ICly emote removing the head from a corpse after killing the person, I can ICly emote showing that head off, and I can OOCly prove that I did ICly remove the head with OOC screenshots. If players want to stubbornly ignore that I will report them for colluding with another player to ignore the consequences of that player's death and let the DM's handle it. I am wholly confident that the DM's do not want you to simply pretend it never happened if you get killed and that you will be the one punished if you try that kind of behavior, not the person who keeps screenshots as proof. The only thing ridiculous here is that we're actually discussing removing a game mechanic so you can ignore the consequences of dying and that so many people would actually side with you on that stance. I sincerely hope this is a vocal minority on the forum and that most players are better than this.

Honestly, if I had the above happen to me, instead of straight up reporting I would have considered asking the DM for an opinion. Because frankly, while the situation might indeed be an instance of pridegamey denial of consequences on the part of the other players involved, it might just as well be an indication that whatever I was doing simply sucks and that's why they don't want to have any part in it.
Sometimes getting a second opinion and taking a long hard look at whatever we're doing and what we're actually trying to acomplish is the right recepie. But that's just my take, maybe I'm wrong about this as I can only assume without knowing more specifics.

[Zavandar]

I've played characters that would bash. I've played characters that take and keep heads. I've played characters that refuse to bash and would admonish others for it. Ive had fake corpses made of my characters and fake heads too.

I've seen characters have their own head thrown at their feet. Was really cringe. I've also wished I had some other means to prove a kill so that I wouldnt be the dude showing off a head while that person is walking around in another settlement. It's weird.

I've also seen mere claims of a kill be taken seriously. I've seen the opposite too. I'll say that, more often than not, when a head is Rp'd as a skull the person is just toting around (not that I really blame people; a head is a head after all), it's serving to demean both the character and the player.

"Joe the animator villain is spooky."

"No he's not. I killed him yesterday" *shows head*


I would be totally fine with another means to prove a kill, and with the trophy decaying.

[Tyrantos]

How about making it last for like a week or two, and then there's a NPC which you can pay to have it uh.. "Processed" to last longer? For a high price?

I actually like this idea as it is more realistic and immersive. In real life a severed head would rot and decay and probably stink too bad to carry around with you for very long after a week or two, and it would definitely be suspicious. But if hero was to say kill the King of Necromancers or the Demon Lord of Pain they might very well want to see a taxidermist and have it stuffed and mounted above their fireplace. Putting a huge price on this like 500,000 gold would keep it rare so it wouldn't be rampantly abused. I think this combined with timestamps and keeping people from renaming/trading them would work great.

Thanks! Glad that someone liked the suggestion. I was going to suggest around 200.000 personally. Or a lower fee, if it only extends the "duration" of the skull.

[The GrumpyCat]

If it were just somehow named "Trophy" rather than a specific body part even, but with a unique icon and confirmation of the character's identity, that'd be a good replacement.

This. Please do this, not a "finger".

Yeah, that would work too. I mean I guess it leaves more room for people to be dumb about it... but that can be dealt with DM side. I like it.

But again - (and this aside from the fact I actually agree and have no problem with some sort of trophy system) I've never really seen any good reason why we need to have eternal severed heads lingering around. Honestly whenever someone shows me severed head of such-and-such more than say, a few weeks after an event when it was taken, I've never been particularly impressed. As my prior post mentioned, if you want to impress me with your rp? Be good enough that your victims talk about you in terms of something other than anger and annoyance.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

These conversations make me hate roleplay around death.

Death needs to be treated seriously.

Respawning is not guaranteed.

When you PvP a character, and take their trophy as proof, it should be done with the severity that PC is indeed dead.

If the dead PC becomes alive again, you're carrying proof of murder - not proof of death. The character is not dead - but they were indeed killed.

If they are no longer dead, but you indeed killed them, the current PC head just demonstrates you're a killer.

Ergo, I have no idea why they need to exist if the outcome is 99% likely a PC will not stay dead after PvP. It proves they were indeed killed? But why is that proof necessary? The killer knew they killed them. Witnesses saw the PvP death. They saw the act of killing.

Why would you throw heads of PCs at the feet of someone? To prove that you were a killer? Great, so is literally every adventurer on Arelith. Unless those heads are of PCs that indeed dead, you're not showing proof of death - you're showing proof of being a killer. And I feel like relying on PC trophies is a cheap trick rather than relying on writing or narrative.

[Anomandaris]

Ohhh the old "Roleplaying death" conversation.

What if we implemented a "scar" system. We now have cover. So... maybe you die to a PC you get a scar that gets added to your description based on damage type. These can stack and grow over time. If you're fully covered no visibility. Little things like this would maybe add a twinge of impact to death (for those that aren't rping death exceptionally already).

Could even add a special healer path ability to remove scar @ lvl 30 healer class level. Once per real life month or something infrequent.

You could even go one step further into mechanical penalty instead of "rp" penalty an add a light debuff that persists for 24/48/72 hours. -1 AB, -1AC, -1 to all saves, -10% hp. Not crippling like normal debuff and only for pc deaths.

I don't like the mechanical solutions as much but making death HAVE to mean something without crippling the PC long-term is definitely doable with a bit of creativity. It'd be great to see people walking around with burn marks and stab wound scars IMO.

[The GrumpyCat]

Ohhh the old "Roleplaying death" conversation.

What if we implemented a "scar" system. We now have cover. So... maybe you die to a PC you get a scar that gets added to your description based on damage type. These can stack and grow over time. If you're fully covered no visibility. Little things like this would maybe add a twinge of impact to death (for those that aren't rping death exceptionally already).

Could even add a special healer path ability to remove scar @ lvl 30 healer class level. Once per real life month or something infrequent.

You could even go one step further into mechanical penalty instead of "rp" penalty an add a light debuff that persists for 24/48/72 hours. -1 AB, -1AC, -1 to all saves, -10% hp. Not crippling like normal debuff and only for pc deaths.

I don't like the mechanical solutions as much but making death HAVE to mean something without crippling the PC long-term is definitely doable with a bit of creativity. It'd be great to see people walking around with burn marks and stab wound scars IMO.

So - I will say this is an interesting idea. I imagine that it'd need more discussion b ut I like how you're coming at it with an angle I'd not even considered. Kudos for that! And I'd love to see this discussed more.

I will say that vis a vis the whole 'player heads' situation - it doesn't quite serve the same purpose. Heads (or better yet trophies' work to as proof that you killed a specific person (in theory anyway), wheres as this is just proof that someone died.

But it's still a facinating idea! Though I'd add I'd only want to see it implemented for pvp deaths... or perhaps even just pvp respawns.

[Anomandaris]

Ohhh the old "Roleplaying death" conversation.

What if we implemented a "scar" system. We now have cover. So... maybe you die to a PC you get a scar that gets added to your description based on damage type. These can stack and grow over time. If you're fully covered no visibility. Little things like this would maybe add a twinge of impact to death (for those that aren't rping death exceptionally already).

Could even add a special healer path ability to remove scar @ lvl 30 healer class level. Once per real life month or something infrequent.

You could even go one step further into mechanical penalty instead of "rp" penalty an add a light debuff that persists for 24/48/72 hours. -1 AB, -1AC, -1 to all saves, -10% hp. Not crippling like normal debuff and only for pc deaths.

I don't like the mechanical solutions as much but making death HAVE to mean something without crippling the PC long-term is definitely doable with a bit of creativity. It'd be great to see people walking around with burn marks and stab wound scars IMO.

So - I will say this is an interesting idea. I imagine that it'd need more discussion b ut I like how you're coming at it with an angle I'd not even considered. Kudos for that! And I'd love to see this discussed more.

I will say that vis a vis the whole 'player heads' situation - it doesn't quite serve the same purpose. Heads (or better yet trophies' work to as proof that you killed a specific person (in theory anyway), wheres as this is just proof that someone died.

But it's still a facinating idea! Though I'd add I'd only want to see it implemented for pvp deaths... or perhaps even just pvp respawns.

Thanks! My thinking was similarly only for respawns and PC (PvP deaths). And you're right it's not 100% related to the whole "trophy" conversation. I do see it all being interconnected insofar as there is an issue in how death is roleplayed or perceived in a server where we're all functionally immortal.

[DM Magpie]

I like the scar idea too. Agree with everything said about it being weird for people to walk around with severed heads when the other person is very much alive.

As for people lying about being killed or having done the killing, this is just petty. This is a RP server first and foremost. People lose, it's fine. Take the loss with grace and move on. Equally people should also not act as if having killed someone in PVP makes them useless and weak. It is very much about reputation and influence as far as I'm concerned. Just because someone doesn't have a PVP build or isn't good at PVP doesn't mean their character should be mocked for it. Which is often what the severed head is used for. Doing something like a scar and allowing healers for example to help remove it also creates extra RP which is just great and helps encourage further follow up RP for people.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I love that idea. I think it'd be more effective than the threat of MODs on people who don't take death seriously.

[-XXX-]

The idea of scars is interesting - as temporary a cosmetic feature.

However, the aspect of them coming with any kind of mechanical debuff is extremely unviable IMO.
The emotional charge and OOC nonsense around PvP can be bad enough. Upping the stakes by adding a snowball mechanic that'd reward players for winning and punish them for losing more (while actively reducing the risk of a successful retaliation at the same time) would only amplify this.


For the record - the particular debuff that was listed as an example can represent the equivalent of a combined sum of multiple feats - so no, that's not a minor debuff. Just consider the heated conversations that players can have on these forums about a "subrace X being OP" because it has +1 to [insert random character sheet attribute] when compared to other options - especially if it's gated behind a reward.

[Anomandaris]

The idea of scars is interesting - as temporary a cosmetic feature.

However, the aspect of them coming with any kind of mechanical debuff is extremely unviable IMO.
The emotional charge and OOC nonsense around PvP can be bad enough. Upping the stakes by adding a snowball mechanic that'd reward players for winning and punish them for losing more (while actively reducing the risk of a successful retaliation at the same time) would only amplify this.


For the record - the particular debuff that was listed as an example can represent the equivalent of a combined sum of multiple feats - so no, that's not a minor debuff. Just consider the heated conversations that players can have on these forums about a "subrace X being OP" because it has +1 to [insert random character sheet attribute] when compared to other options - especially if it's gated behind a reward.

Well... isn't that kind of the idea? If you lose and come back for more PvP you're really not honoring death right? A successful retaliation in that timeline would be pretty much a prime example of "the problem," I'd argue. I mean again as I said I'm really not super pro mechanical solutions to "enforce" or promote RP. I liked the scar idea as it was something that was more RP and cosmetic, that affected reputation etc.

And of course a debuff wouldn't be permanent in this hypothetical. IF the idea was to limit PvP after a PvP death (i.e. not honoring death and accepting defeat), then something that is not crippling for PvE and other activities (like a ful statline debuff) but made you slightly less competitive could prevent people circling back on the 24 hr timeline for more.


Anyways, again not a huge fan of mechanical stuff like that. It's not going to make ppl better rpers but it would limit their ability to just go right back into pvp at the edge of the rule timeline without a bit more risk. I'd support if it there was consensus for it but just was an idea I had considered. Just wanted to clarify as it seemed slightly mischaracterized.

[-XXX-]

Ah, so you were suggesting the respawn penalty?
We do have that already.

Last time I checked respawning characters suffered crippling temporary penalties to prevent players from just rushing back into the fray and disregarding the PvP rules.
It also incentivizes them to log and cool off a bit without making it mandatory.


Since short-term mechanical debuffs are in place, what other kind than long term or permanent mechanical representation of scars is there to discuss?
I merely voiced my opinion that any form of those would deincentivize any form of interactive and ongoing rivalry between characters.

Hypothetical scenario:
A and B get into a quarrel.
A takes a cheap shot at B, crippling them for the forseeable future.
B's player realizes that they can't compete and abandons the storyline entirely.

As you can see, mechanical consequences can lead to less RP consequences.

[DangerDolphin]

The heads should certainly disappear after a few days. If "who won what PvP" is so important for you, then feel free to have a screenshots folder of your kills to replace them. I don't think anyone will be asking to look at it.

People not role-playing death seriously is certainly a problem in Arelith, but that is only a symptom of the tendency to resort to PvP as
a solution to every in character conflict. If PK death was a rare (every 6 months) occurrence then people would likely be happy to RP it out more seriously - but given that it occurs weekly instead, fatigue of role-playing that out dramatically will quickly set in until it becomes routine and ignored.

We could certainly solve this problem with a harsher death penalty for PvP, but this would have the consequence of rewarding those people who lack the creativity to roleplay out conflicts in a fun way and instantly resort to PKing.

Personally, I would like to see more serious consequences and action from the DM team against those that initiate PvP frequently. The fact that we as a community try to be as open and welcoming as possible to players who are learning roleplay is great, but those that fill that void of roleplay talent with PvP actions have had an overwhelmingly negative effect on the server as a whole and need to be dealt with more harshly.

The fact that this thread exists at all is a testament to how focused the playerbase has become on PvP on a supposedly roleplay focused server.