The current dex meta, especially monk.

[Arigard]

Come on, folks. This update is mostly cosmetic. Find something else to rage on, yeah?

You mean the 'cosmetic' changes that now offer spellswords a +4 1d8 (higher base dmg) weapon that's keened & runic? Or the cosmetic update that allows dex rangers to use a +5 blade of elements with bane of enemies? Not sure if you realise , but that's a real power surge right there for certain dex builds.

[Kenji]

You mean the 'cosmetic' changes that now offer spellswords a +4 1d8 (higher base dmg) weapon that's keened & runic? Or the cosmetic update that allows dex rangers to use a +5 blade of elements with bane of enemies? Not sure if you realise , but that's a real power surge right there for certain dex builds.

It goes both ways, str 27/3 paladin or ranger builds can also now get +5 BoEs with Swashbuckler dips for more damage and tumble.

And before the change, one can attain the same build, if not better, with halfling and dale swords due to their size and race. Guess what, that build is now available to most races instead of being limited to hin.

When you think about it, the changes are subtle but, ultimately, mostly cosmetic.

[Arigard]

When you think about it, the changes are subtle but, ultimately, mostly cosmetic

Not true at all, neither is this a subtle change, or a cosmetic one.

Dale swords are small weapons. That makes them vulnerable to disarm. Long-swords both have more base damage than the dale sword & do not suffer the same penalties as a small weapon. There are no native +4 katanas, or rapiers (the other bladed medium weapons that were available before) that compare to the moon-blade (which is keened and runic), so perfect for spells-word that either needed to cast keen weapon (only +4 ab), or GMW (Only +5, no keen) before.

There are no other dex weapons that provide the elemental damage of a blade of elements that is perfect for any class with an AB buff that stacks.

It's a very clear power buff across the board for medium size dex builds. Then stack this on top of the extra +2 gift that was recently given to say drow & you have much more offense on builds than was available just a few weeks ago.

To say this is not a power increase & is cosmetic is ridiculous. It's a clear power increase for a meta that really didn't need it.

By your logic above, we should also be rolling out +5/Keen weapons on all weapons/races because currently it's only achievable on a Gnome. Let's make those available across the board too.

It goes both ways, str 27/3 paladin or ranger builds can also now get +5 BoEs with Swashbuckler dips for more damage and tumble.

Why would anyone dip swashbuckler when monk offer 100x more?

[Kenji]

When you think about it, the changes are subtle but, ultimately, mostly cosmetic

<snipped>

...str...

Imagine thinking anyone would dip swashbuckler on a dex build when monk exists......................

The permanent defensive essences trivialize the point you're trying to make. It's a power boost for PvE, I'll give it that.

Also, it's str 27/3, not dex. It's also a buff to the str 27/3 paladin and rangers.

Edit: Before you go on further rants about how str isn't comparable to dex builds atm, again, more changes are coming, even if gradual.

We're approaching this carefully as to not overshot the nerfs/buffs all at once.

[Ork]

Disarm is such a weak argument especially when the feat is neutered and solely the domain of 2H barbarians. Where was this level of lamenting over actual critical changes? Looking at you, Loremaggedon. Happy birthday.

[Arigard]

The permanent defensive essences trivialize the point you're trying to make. It's a power boost for PvE, I'll give it that.

Also, it's str 27/3, not dex.

1d4 x 2 = possible 8 dmg. Essences are /5. That's 4 more chances to do up to 12 more dmg on a critical. It's not a -lot- in the grand scheme of things, but add it to blade thirst, bane of enemies and other stack-able damage and it matters, especially against builds working towards DR or those with lower AC that take constant hits/crits. People build fighter into builds simply for an extra +2 from weapon specialization. Everything counts.

This is a dex meta power increase, regardless of how you try to trivialize it as cosmetic.

Disarm is such a weak argument especially when the feat is neutered and solely the domain of 2H barbarians.

You think having +4 to +8 extra AB versus small/tiny weapons is neutered? I'm assuming you're not aware that this is the case...

[Ork]

You, uh, might want to reread my post. Unless you're saying medium wielding melee should take disarm, cause then that would be hilarious. I hope you're able to appreciate that on any other melee vs. a dale sword you're receiving no bonus to AB with a medium-sized weapon. To say that this buffs dex, I'd agree. But, only in situations where your opponent 1. has disarm & 2. uses 2H weapon.

[Kenji]

It goes both ways, str 27/3 paladin or ranger builds can also now get +5 BoEs with Swashbuckler dips for more damage and tumble.

Why would anyone dip swashbuckler when monk offer 100x more?

Because monk offers next to nothing for str builds who'd wear armor. In my particular example, the swashbuckler dips, they'd wear Draconic Armor (paladin) or Ranger's Studded Armor (ranger). Given the recent monk/dex gear nerf, 4-stat build (str, con, wis, dex) for ranger or 5-stat build (str, con, wis, cha, dex) is not worth the 5% gearing trouble anymore.

Divine Shield from Paladin no longer stacks with Monk's wisdom AC, as well. One could argue this translates to saving one feat for more passive gearing, but it would effectively turn the build into a 5-stat build (unless both str and con are dropped) while losing the shield slot. Even then, with monk dip, the 27 paladin will prefer to wield monk's UBAB weapon, which is not Longsword.

If we're talking about those ranger build not wearing armor in order to get monk bonus, then, again, we'd be talking about another topic since longsword doesn't apply to monk's UBAB. So I assume we're talking about AC. Ranger's dual-wield AC is lost when monk levels are involved, therefore armor + dual-wield AC will be easier and better than monk's wis AC given the recent monk/dex gear nerf.

TL;DR:
Paladin's Divine Shield doesn't work with monk's wis AC
Ranger's DW AC doesn't work with monk dip
Longsword doesn't work with monk's UBAB
Not wearing armor and shield (pally) because of monk does more harm than good for the 27/3 builds. Swashbuckler, rogue, bard, or specialist are the better dips.

<snipped again>

You're only looking at the max possible value, but the chances of that happening are far lower than expected. A better representation would be:

• First, one needs to 5% keen a BoE, which is a loot item.
• Second, the paladin build can vary, some may choose to drop imp crit and toughness (humans-only) for improved knockdown. The threat range can go from 19-20 (non-keen BoE, no imp crit), 17-20 (keen'd BoE or imp crit), or best case scenario 15-20.
• Third, we now get to the calculation part:

1d4*2 is 2d8. This means it has 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 as possible damage rolls. 3/7 will bypass the 5/- DR on a crit. We then look back at all the potential threat range:
19-20: 10% chance, 17-20: 20% chance, 15-20: 30% chance.
All of this is assuming the opponent has same or less AC than your current roll'd AB.
With the weight of the damage rolls being 1, 2, and 3. Multiply each of them by 1/7 and add them together, it comes out to be ~.857143.

But Kenji, wait, how is it averaging out to be 0.857143 damage when the minimal damage is 1? Well, it's average. Out of the 7 chances of bypassing DR, you're getting zero 4 times! Less than 50% chance for any one of the elements to bypass 5/- DR.

If it's 10% chance, then the extra damage would be 0.0857*4 = 0.3428
20%, 0.6856 extra damage
30%, 1.0284 extra damage

Best case scenario, you're looking at 1 extra average damage. 50% of fighter's specialization (Physical damage, which is way better) while you have to go through the 5% process of keening a BoE and spending a feat.

TL;DR: The stars would have to align for the extra 12 damage to happen. It's statistics at this point as 12 is very, very far away from the average value of 1. It can happen, just don't expect it to happen every attack. If one doesn't get the 5% keen'd BoE or the target's AC begins to exceed the AB, then that 1 average damage is just going to lower and chances of getting any higher damage is just going to become slimmer.

Note that there are equipments/spells out there that also offer more than 5/- DR which will render one or more of the BoE's element useless.

All of this is assuming the dex paladin or ranger build isn't dipping monk, which they'd just go for something else for the UBAB bonus. The Str builds will, well, remain as they are.

Last but not least, fighter dip usually means +6 damage, not +2, unless we're talking about niche scenario of certain majority 3/4 BAB class, 26/4 builds with all 4 fighter levels pre-epic so they'd trade getting epic weapon specialization in order to get an extra APR.

[Arigard]

You, uh, might want to reread my post. Unless you're saying medium wielding melee should take disarm, cause then that would be hilarious. I hope you're able to appreciate that on any other melee vs. a dale sword you're receiving no bonus to AB with a medium-sized weapon. To say that this buffs dex, I'd agree. But, only in situations where your opponent 1. has disarm & 2. uses 2H weapon.

Not saying that at all. I'm suggesting that for certain builds the only respite to even be able to hit certain dex AC was the fact that many of the better weapons available (dale sword/kamas/assasins dagger) were small or tiny weapons, which gave them a niche weakness. That meant if you were building for say using two hand weapons, at the very least you had some options to try and use against those builds. Bringing something like the moon-blade to dexxers not only unlocks an upgraded weapon from rapier/katana, but it makes medium weapons for dex builds more attractive across the board. This starts to close the (albeit very niche) ways that strength builds could use to try and keep up with their AC creep. Keep in mind even with a medium weapon, with improved disarm, you still get +4 ab against tiny weapons and no minus against small weapons. That means you're still rolling to remove someones potential to do damage against you at your highest AB vs a -4 AB on a knockdown roll.

Because monk offers next to nothing for str builds who'd wear armor. In my particular example, the swashbuckler dips, they'd wear Draconic Armor (paladin) or Ranger's Studded Armor (ranger). Given the recent monk/dex gear nerf, 4-stat build (str, con, wis, dex) for ranger or 5-stat build (str, con, wis, cha, dex) is not worth the 5% gearing trouble anymore.

Paladin, I understand, but there's very little benefit right now in going strength ranger over dex ranger, especially with monk dip on the table as it stands. Dex with a monk dip offers more AC, comparable AB, more hide/ms, can syngerize with dips for epic dodge and you aren't just relegated to using monk weapons. +5 blade thirsted kurkris are a very attractive option, for example. Moon-blades are now a very nice medium option for dex ranger builds that don't build for a +5 blade thirst, that previous to this patch simply did not exist to them.

Let's also not forget spell-swords with monk dips here. They now have a medium weapon option that offers them a +4 enhancement and a keened 15-20 crit range. That means more imbue damage consistently from crits + the spellsword AC on top. To achieve this before you were either forced to GMW a bronze weapon (losing keen), or 5% a +3 damask medium weapon like a rapier/katana, that still has one less AB and is incredibly expensive, or use a green-steel version that does less damage. A moon-blade now offers everything in one item. It's a no-brainer.

Not all monk dips are forced to use monk weapons. Attacks per round are very important on certain builds, but when you have a build like a dex spellsword that can hit 49-50 ab, plus has the ability to mordenkainens/cast level 9 spells, throw a moon-blade on that on top and they gain much more crit potential to deal damage and then they also have the extra spell-sword AC to boot. This is a clear power increase for certain builds that takes away many of the 'trade offs' they had to balance before in terms of weapon choice or size choice. I.e smaller, but better weapons that were vulnerable to disarm, or weapons with less ab, but keen, or more ab and no keen. A moonblade is an upgrade across the board that also has a constant more powerful bless weapon on (2d8) vs undead and when half of the server uses undead summons, I'd say that is a considerable potential buff in PvP also.

[AstralUniverse]

Ranger/monk/fighter, elf:
10 + 15 dex + 9 wis + 4 armor + 4 deflection + 4 natural + 1 boots + 1 MA + 6 tumbe + 1 skleen + 4 haste + 2 armor skin = 61.

ranger/paladin/bard, human:
10 + 13 armor + 3 DW + 4 deflection + 4 natural + 1 boots + 1 MA + 1 skleen + 4 haste + 2 armor skin + 6 tumbe + 9 divine shield = 58.

Ab for both is quite the same. One has 15 ability mod while the other normally (in most build sheets I've seen) only reaches 24 bab due to monk. Both end up with 48-49 ab depending on race. Both also can squeezes out 2 more ac from wakizashi. But I'd say, if the ac difference is only 2 and the div build has somewhat better saves (but not by much) and a much much better DPS to make it comparable to the dex based with the ubab. Not saying which of them is better. Just saying str isnt so trash when you take into account the recent nerfs to gear and quarterstaff. The str variant can also wear a shield but the DW bonus + 3 ac from wakizashi means that you can dual wield and get +6 effective ac from your shield slot.

EDIT: I made a small correction in the ac of the latter build. turns out I accidentally added +1 fighter bonus in there. with fighter it's 56 ac.

[Arcbled]

Going to try and keep my thoughts concise on this one, and I won't bring up hard numbers. In fact, a list'll probably be better.

1. Strength absolutely needs more advantages beyond 'more damage' and 'carry weight', and I welcome anything that helps encourage thicker muscles as opposed to slinkier ones. Hunks, not twinks.

2. Monk dips are a major problem, on pretty much every conceivable level. The advantages of >5 levels of Monk are so extreme that character concepts have to bend to include the aforementioned weekend courses at a McDojo. I think making these bonuses majority monk only, pushing them into higher monk levels or (my personal favourite choice) making (some or all of) these bonuses apply across the board would solve a lot of the trouble.

3. Majority monk is cursed, and also, haunted.

4. Nerfs are never fun, buffs are always beloved. Balancing is, by merit of its goal, a balancing act. There're plenty of plates to keep spinning and it's very easy to leave some of them to falter. DEX is too strong, and deserves some adjusting for sure, but for the crime of playing a pure monk Tilly's lost between 12 and 48 AC (let's say 12, for now). Because of EDodge being added to monks epic levels, monks had their extra AC per 5 levels nabbed, which was pretty fair, but honestly? Just give half of it back and delete EDodge and Imp. Expertise. From the game. They're too powerful and their primary use seems to be 'make DEX builds dummy thicc'.

Boy, that one got convoluted.

5. Remove quivering palm. It wouldn't be one of my posts discussing builds if I didn't say this.

6. Casters are still King. A caster has no weaknesses it cannot fix, no shortages of strengths it cannot bolster even beyond. The caster, who has organised the chaos of his passions, given style to his character, and become creative - aware of life's terrors, he affirms his being without resentment. Nerf cleric plz.

7. Love you, have a nice day. ♥

[AstralUniverse]

5. Remove quivering palm. It wouldn't be one of my posts discussing builds if I didn't say this.

You're saying that to the same dev team that buffed Deathless Master's Touch 2 years ago. I dont think they have any problem with such abilities existing as long there are trade-offs boosting up their DC and can be used once in 10 minutes or 1 in rest. The change from wis monks back to dex helped there.

[Arigard]

But I'd say, if the ac difference is only 2 and the div build has somewhat better saves (but not by much) and a much much better DPS to make it comparable to the dex based with the ubab.

The big issue is that you need a wind up for divine shield/might/haste. That's time when you are potentially vulnerable. It can also drop in combat and you can get caught etc. Dex needs one button (blinding speed) and it's ready to go, has more readily available haste that lasts longer, it's also far better having constant AC that is also irremovable (monk wis ac) and as divine shield is dodge AC,
you're incredibly vulnerable to losing it flatfooted. Dex also provides hide/ms synergy for HIPS. It also requires three feats to achieve a divine version, those are three feats a dex version can spend elsewhere. Etc etc.

Listen, I never said strength based was trash, there's just a lot more going for the dex version from how I see it. The damage it provides simply doesn't outweigh the list of bonuses it gets from a defensive sense.

[Kenji]

<snipped for the 3rd time>

The answer is: Bronze Rapier.

Lesser Moonblade:
+4 AB, +4 dmg, 15-20 threat range with keen and imp crit., 2d8 divine vs undead, runic (+1 Uni save)

GMW Bronze Rapier:
+5 AB, +5 dmg, 15-20 threat range with imp crit, no keen.

Spellswords can cast Protection from Spells which boost their saves by 8. 2d8 divine vs undead is mainly for PvE or niche cases of necromancers or vampire PCs. (then again, if you aren't WoFing but smacking the vampires/mummies, you're doing something wrong)

I think you can extrapolate the rest.

If anything, the change expanded the possible builds as well as, again, cosmetic choices.

[Arcbled]

5. Remove quivering palm. It wouldn't be one of my posts discussing builds if I didn't say this.

You're saying that to the same dev team that buffed Deathless Master's Touch 2 years ago. I dont think they have any problem with such abilities existing as long there are trade-offs boosting up their DC and can be used once in 10 minutes or 1 in rest. The change from wis monks back to dex helped there.

Oh, no, I mean it should be removed because it consistently doesn't work, and even if it did it would still be fairly useless. It's tied into the 'monk is designed to bully' problem, because it's an ability that's only good in situations where the monk's already probably fine-and-dandy to just autoattack to victory.

[AstralUniverse]

5. Remove quivering palm. It wouldn't be one of my posts discussing builds if I didn't say this.

You're saying that to the same dev team that buffed Deathless Master's Touch 2 years ago. I dont think they have any problem with such abilities existing as long there are trade-offs boosting up their DC and can be used once in 10 minutes or 1 in rest. The change from wis monks back to dex helped there.

Oh, no, I mean it should be removed because it consistently doesn't work, and even if it did it would still be fairly useless. It's tied into the 'monk is designed to bully' problem, because it's an ability that's only good in situations where the monk's already probably fine-and-dandy to just autoattack to victory.

It doesnt work in a lvl 30 vs lvl 30 pvp. But from my experience playing a wis monk before the most recent of reworks I was using it sometimes in pve (sadly, it wasnt on cooldown back then) and it was working just fine. Over time you learn to guess better which caster mobs have lower fort save and it's like a small mini game and it can help in clutch situations in pve against casters.

[Arcbled]

You're saying that to the same dev team that buffed Deathless Master's Touch 2 years ago. I dont think they have any problem with such abilities existing as long there are trade-offs boosting up their DC and can be used once in 10 minutes or 1 in rest. The change from wis monks back to dex helped there.

Oh, no, I mean it should be removed because it consistently doesn't work, and even if it did it would still be fairly useless. It's tied into the 'monk is designed to bully' problem, because it's an ability that's only good in situations where the monk's already probably fine-and-dandy to just autoattack to victory.

It doesnt work in a lvl 30 vs lvl 30 pvp. But from my experience playing a wis monk before the most recent of reworks I was using it sometimes in pve (sadly, it wasnt on cooldown back then) and it was working just fine. Over time you learn to guess better which caster mobs have lower fort save and it's like a small mini game and it can help in clutch situations in pve against casters.

Yeah, the 'it doesn't work' started happening when it was put onto cooldown. 80% of times I've tried to use it, it simply doesn't happen. It goes onto cooldown without the target having to make a save.

[Arigard]

The answer is: Bronze Rapier.

You can't add a permanent essence onto a GMW'ed bronze weapon. Moonblade has potential for permanent essence + runic property for either more damage/saves etc, with more base dmg (1d8 vs 1d6) and the dmg vs undead at the expense of 1ab/dmg. Considering spell-swords have easy access to breach either through spells/scrolls, premonition isn't a big deal as you'll be dispelling it easily.

(then again, if you aren't WoFing but smacking the vampires/mummies, you're doing something wrong)

There are very few builds with CL able to use WoF against summons that have caster spell resistance and if you aren't using spell resist on your summons in PvP, then you're doing something wrong. So often there is no choice but to attack them. WoF CL scroll is lvl 13. A mage/clerics spell resist is usually going to be close to 40. WoF isn't happening vs that and nobody is going to spend rounds of time trying to remove that from 3 summons whilst getting spammed by the mage spells on top & attacked by the undead. Halt undead maybe.

Power increase.

[AstralUniverse]

Yeah, the 'it doesn't work' started happening when it was put onto cooldown. 80% of times I've tried to use it, it simply doesn't happen. It goes onto cooldown without the target having to make a save.

I dont think removing this ability is the right way to address what sounds a lot like a bug with the cooldown.

[Kenji]

The answer is: Bronze Rapier.

You can't add a permanent essence onto a GMW'ed bronze weapon. Moonblade has potential for permanent essence + runic property for either more damage/saves etc, with more base dmg (1d8 vs 1d6) and the dmg vs undead at the expense of 1ab/dmg. Considering spell-swords have easy access to breach either through spells/scrolls, premonition isn't a big deal as you'll be dispelling it easily.

(then again, if you aren't WoFing but smacking the vampires/mummies, you're doing something wrong)

There are very few builds with CL able to use WoF against summons that have caster spell resistance and if you aren't using spell resist on your summons in PvP, then you're doing something wrong. So often there is no choice but to attack them. WoF CL scroll is lvl 13. A mage/clerics spell resist is usually going to be close to 40. WoF isn't happening vs that and nobody is going to spend rounds of time trying to remove that from 3 summons whilst getting spammed by the mage spells on top. Halt undead maybe.

Power increase.

First,
Please see the note above about essenced damages. They are, agian, trivialized by 5/- DR. +4 may perform slightly better than 1d4, sure, but not comparable to +1 AB, +1 damage, and DR piercing no matter how you look at it.

Again, the +1 uni save is dwarfed by Spellsword's +8 save from Protection against Spells. Along with Spellcraft and a few uni save items, that +20 soft cap is easily reached.

Second,
Not sure if we're still on the subject of Dex Spellsword + Longsword anymore, Spellswords can breach said mummies/vampires' SR and still have enough lore to WoF scroll them. The rest is dependent on player skill. I can go on and on, but I believe you're just gasping at straws for argument's sake at this point. I have limited time and energy and I'd prefer to actually do something productive than arguing over something so minute.

If you're talking about other builds other than spellswords, please see the note about Hin again. Or GMW Rapier/Scimitar if non-hin are desperate enough vs a niche disarm build when their kukri becomes a liability. Any races other than elves will also have to invest into getting 30 UMD for the longsword, too.

[Boho-PC]

After a few wall of text re-writes, I'll try to be brief...

My proposed solution is allowing 3 Monk to grant caster levels in the primary caster class and the option of either Cleave, Evasion, WIS bonus to AC, Flurry of Blows, UBAB, Still Mind, and (lol) Deflect Arrows or a free Epic Spell Focus and its associated Epic Spell*. This should be roughly equivalent to a caster what Dex melee are currently getting from 3 Monk.

I also considered the greater of INT or CHA to AC but I feel like that may be going a step too far. We can always add it later if these changes turn out to be underpowered. Baby steps. Oh, and I didn't mention Monk skills since of course both parties would continue to get these.

Thanks in advance for agreeing to make this desperately-needed change to casters. I always say you should never nerf other classes, just buff up underperforming ones. I am glad the Arelith staff has committed to this change to allow spell casters to join the /3 Monk party.


*Only if the character can already cast Epic spells. Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus is auto-granted if the character doesn't already have them in the chosen Epic Spell Focus.

[Arigard]

Snip

Well, let's just agree to disagree then, I suppose. I'm not trying to take you away from more important stuff, or be petty here, I generally think this is a power change and I'm just trying to understand the thought process behind the update, because to me it's much more than simply a cosmetic change.

For the good of moving on, i'll try and summarize my position, so we don't need to keep going back and forth.

For me, anything that removes all of the negatives of choice and only offers positives in their place, is something that is going to be heavily used in the meta and that's all I see from this long-sword change. A weapon that now has no reason to not be built around by a large majority of medium, dex race builds. I would not choose any of the other smaller weapons over the moon-blade as it currently stands (unless i was forced to as a small race), especially now it is a rogue weapon also, simply because it nullifies the weaknesses that the smaller/tiny weapons hold and I have to make zero sacrifices in terms of losing AB, Keen, or enhancement on my weapon for the increased size category. It ticks all the boxes, has none of the negatives & doesn't require stupid amounts of monetary investment to 5%.

That's my two cents from as an objective position as I can see it from a mechanical perspective & to me signals a clear power increase. You might not agree, that's fine, but that's what I am seeing when I look at which builds I might decide on going forward.

I look forward to future updates and however the meta changes I will adapt around it, I just hope that at some point soon I can genuinely have more options that don't end up just inevitably being "If this was dex, or had a monk dip, it'd end up being more powerful across the board" - which invariably is what happens with a large majority of build variations currently whether i'm building for myself, or others.

[Ork]

I'd probably advise you take it down a notch. Longswords going finesse is not the feather that breaks the meta's back, and you even mention how monk dips are highly preferrable- longswords do not benefit that path. One build I do see using this increasing power is a medium-sized dex pdk/bg, but again they're better off going halfling for +1 uni, +1 ac, & +1 ab. In the end, this is mathematically a cosmetic change. Numbers don't lie.