Potential Upcoming Healpot Nerf - Feedback Needed

[The Rambling Midget]

not sure if it's possible, but things like this for consistant use of pots, or even heal kits?

Bandaged

The character cannot be healed any further with First Aid skill.

[AstralUniverse]

Will Con allow one to drink more potions, similar to how alcohol works?

Initially I didn't plan for this, but I'm open to the idea.

I recently played a conlock and I don't think con should factor into anything. Con builds are already built to be difficult to kill without giving further advantage.

I second this statement.

[cantalyssa]

This seems more like a buff to DEX based builds and a nerf to STR based builds.

DEX builds should get hit a lot less than STR builds do, especially considering Epic Dodge. That being the case, being hit less = less need for potions.

This system to me just puts a "time limit" as to how long a STR build can fight a DEX build - that time limit being the 100% toxicity level where they will fall down and then die. That's compounded with the fact that most STR builds are divine and have a relatively short timer to begin with where DEX doesn't exactly have any timer associated with it.

Should also be noted that on-hit regen gets buffed pretty significantly with this - something DEX builds get much more access to than strength (blade thirst via quarterstaff ranger/monk, and the dex spellstaff/monk), which are both really really strong builds in both pve and pvp.


That being said on your points:

1) The only people that needs more HP to be relevant with this system will be STR based builds. DEX doesn't need as much because they aren't taking much damage in the first place - arguably half as much with epic dodge (2 crits needed to hit them in most cases).

2) Arguable that it adds strategy - I think instead it adds a timer to pvp combat rather than a meaningful strategy as noted above

3-4) no opinion

[ReverentBlade]

I'm against any more meters. We're not even playing D&D any more.

[ImWithThisGuy]

I have long been after a change for heal potions, Having several times seen people drink their own body weight or more during particular PvE or PvP fights. It was always silly to me that they were willing to do that, despite how ridiculous it was in practice. That said, I don't feel the same way about some of the other potions like the zoo line, true strike, remove blind+deaf, death-ward, Freedom, etc. They represent a very needed answer to powerful abilities, and they are all available through wands anyway, which would only serve to further wand usage. (Making it too easily subverted to the extent it would make no difference, and/or force people to wand instead of pot.)

I also really love the thematic of potions which heal eventually over saturate the drinker with positive energy, beyond only drinking too much and feeling bloated. Perhaps best expressed through receiving damage vulnerabilities, damage over time, or similar.)

My only reservation with a system like this would be if toxicity was based off of Constitution scores. While it makes complete sense, it also serves to play into a higher Con meta, which is already quite prevalent. That does put dex builds into a worse position, But at the same time, Rewards min-maxing into Con. Casters as a whole will be drinking more, or worse, Clerics+Druids being able to cast 4-5 heals in a fight, while also being one of few able to drink half a dozen extra healing potions doesn't serve well into the intent here, I think. Also worth mentioning that dwarves would receive something like that as a buff, and elves as a nerf, which isn't needed on such a wide scale.

I would much sooner add in class/race/feat specific checks, perhaps for the following classes (or more, as seen as fitting):

Barbarians, due to their undeniable resilience and heartiness, (lesser)

Earthkin Defenders, due to the same reasons as Barbarians, (greater)

Anyone with the feat Perfect Health for obvious reasons, (Greatest, perhaps even exempting them from toxicity as a whole)

Anyone with the Brew Potion feat, due to a greater knowledge of potions in specific, (lesser)

Assassin, Loremaster, and perhaps Herbalists, due to their knowledge of toxic substances, (greater)

Lycanthropes, due to an increased metabolism, (lesser)

And Special subraces, such as Earth Genasi and Forest Gnomes due to nature, while Minotaurs, Ogres, and Firbolgs benefit due to size. And so on in that fashion. (lesser)

Some races could even receive a penalty, like pixies. (Least, while imagining a pixie attempting to drink an entire bottle bigger than they are )

Or additionally, miscellaneous effects that increase one's ability to drink potions either by reducing the amount of toxicity per potion, rate of toxicity recovery, exempting certain potion effects, increases to toxicity thresh-hold, or otherwise. (New or existing feats come to mind, like resist poison and snake-blooded(excluding yuan-ti), as does Ironguts- if cast by spell, not potion.)

[Nobs]

Make it so you can only drink heal pots and first aid when you are out of combat for 6 seconds.

[The Rambling Midget]

Make it so you can only drink heal pots and first aid when you are out of combat for 6 seconds.

I think you were looking for this thread: viewtopic.php?f=18&t=30604

[Diegovog]

Just add a cooldown of 15 seconds for the heal potions and less for the smaller ones, much simpler.

[Archnon]

This seems to hit all melee and benefits arcane casters.

Perhaps alcohol should also contribute to toxicity for both ooc and ic reasons. We all know it is a toxic substance. Or at least, those of us who have polished a handle of bourbon off in one evening with 4 good friends know this. Further, it might put a cap on drinking to rest... just a thought.

[Aellowyn]

I share the sentiment that I don't think zoo buffs should count.

As far as heal pots go, a nerf to them would hurt STR builds more than DEX.

As multiple others pointed out, the low AC of a STR means they get hit more often, needing to heal more. Adding a toxicity, means this would affect a low AC STR build more.

As far as reducing the strength of a heal pot, this would again affect low AC STR builds as they would get less of a benefit from drinking a heal vs risk/frequency of being hit.

A DEX is likely to be able to continue to chug more, but a high AC won't need to chug as many heal pots in the first place, meaning toxicity shouldn't bother them as much. And the AC means they'd less likely get hit, meaning that extra HP from a nerfed heal would still benefit them far more than someone who gets hit so often.

Adding a cooldown to heal pots, means the high AC who doesn't get hit as often, gets to heal again by the time they need it; also benefiting those that can draw out the combat through maneuvers by sneaking, running around like crazy people (monk), gsanc, ranged attacking, time stop, etc...

So yes, while these suggestions might reduce the amount of people standing about endlessly chugging heal pots (High AC DEX builds, druids...) they would still, in the end, only really benefit DEX based and high AC builds

I'd like to add on, melee DEX or STR, this is going to hurt.

[Mattamue]

Perhaps lowered effectiveness after constant use of certain items?

100% this, more simple and still effective counter play. No new stat, just reduced effectiveness.

[matheusgraef]

Perhaps lowered effectiveness after constant use of certain items?

EG if you drink 4 heal potions you get

1 = 100% effectiveness

2 = 75%

3 = 50%

4 = 35% effectiveness

Staying at 4 until rounds pass you dont drink one. not sure if it's possible, but things like this for consistant use of pots, or even heal kits?

This. The toxicity stuff sounds overly complicated.

[Arigard]

I don't really understand how this helps the meta in any way. Dex have much higher sustain already, strength don't. They also don't have access to regen & their buffing pots/scrolls last a much less duration than casters, they also don't have access to fight breaking mechanics like sanctuary or hide in plain sight. Buffs/protections last an incredibly short period, especially from potions.

The only real sustain available to the most vulnerable AC builds is healing pots/scrolls kits. The fact they need to rely on them so much is because they do not have access to the things other classes have (overheal/regen/heal spells/vampiric regen/high AC). Perhaps if you massively factor in constitution into the toxicity etc, it -could- work. That would be the only way I could see it being introduced in any balanced way outside of a simple cooldown.

keep in mind not every strength build is a divine build, which means they are at even more danger of getting hit very frequently, especially by summons and other PCs. Take away their ability to heal and you push the meta even more towards high sustain dex builds and casters..

We keep seeing that strength based aid is coming, but honestly all I keep seeing is very minimal superficial nerfs to dex builds that make very little difference in the grand scheme of things & then buffs to the dex meta. Adding longswords to dex is much more of a buff by far than any of the recent nerfs. It suddenly opens up spellswords and dex builds with more powerful base weapons (such as the moonblade), or rangers using blade thirst on the blade of elements for example. It far outweighs dropping a few points from dex items, or taking -2 from quarterstaffs. People will simply rotate to the new, much more powerful dex meta, especially when one of the only true counters to small/tiny weapons is disarm, which won't provide anything against medium weapons.

Unless there's something big coming in the pipeline for str, I really don't get the direction things are going right now, as it feels less and less worthwhile with every update to build for strength, especially for non divine strength and it just feels like we're being told something on paper, but in reality the complete opposite is actually happening.

Everyone can clearly see (and have been able to see for a long time) what the problem is currently with dips, when half the server rely on both monk and divine because it doesn't scale, but instead of targeting the actual problem & cutting off the head of the beast, we seems to be getting constant band-aid fixes that tip toe around the issue that end up only only frustrating the player-base (due to the constant changes/new systems).

I live in hope that there is something coming in grand scheme of things, but what I read and then what I see actually happen through updates doesn't seem to match up at all. In the last few weeks, summons got buffed (by leadership) and then reverted (which is a good move imo, but summons didn't need extra APR even as a concept to start with) and now more powerful dex based builds are possible through long-swords.

I dunno. I just don't really get it right now, but I'm holding out hope that something is being worked on. It's just hard to keep faith when things like the long-sword buffs come in, when it really wasn't in any way needed especially after so many threads consistently regarding the dex meta.

[Aradin]

This seems like a situation where keeping it simple is better. Having to manage a toxicity meter may balance potion usage, but it doesn't sound very fun.
I much more like the idea of a cool down, and really, only on the heal potion. Because it's not *potions* that are the problem, it's *heal* potions. Like specifically just that one potion. So why overcomplicate fixing one potion by dragging every single other potion into the mix?

[Dreams]

Can’t this just be simplified by putting a cool down on potion use? This seems needlessly complicated.

[helitron]

Cool down for heal pots seems to be the better solution. Like we have it on clarity potions.
Or reduce HP gain from heal to 100

[Aren]

Hey Garrbear.

I think the toxicity system sounds cool, and very “The Witcher” inspired. However, it also sounds very convoluted and unnecessarily complex.

I think the most straightforward and frankly best way to handle heal potion chugging, is to add diminishing returns - as suggested by Mythic. The issue isn’t with every other potion, it’s with heal potions.

Sincerely

Aren

[ReverentBlade]

Diminishing returns on heal pots was the method Amia used. It worked okayish. I would suggest starting with very small DR increments and balancing up from there to taste. Sometimes you need them in bursts and harsh DR makes you die fast, but modest DR still prevents functional immortality.

[-XXX-]

Why not simply make selected potions count as alcohol?

[ReverentBlade]

...that's pretty elegant, actually.

[Morgy]

As others have pointed out - this hurts lower AC (str) builds more than high Dex AC builds. Seems rather backward to me.

Some debuff like "Sluggish" would be more appropriate, that perhaps lowers DEX together the more potions are consumed in a set time period. This would lower AC of both STR/DEX builds somewhat, but would be far more harmful to high dex builds do to higher dependence on dex for AC and AB.

[Lexx]

This definitely hurts lower AC builds much more. As they are the ones chain-chugging them when they get hit more often.

[the grim yeeter]

Toxicity part is a bad idea for reasons mentioned above. Instead, cumulatively diminishing returns from heal potions is a good idea (less complex, less time-consuming in terms of coding, and it doesn't hurt other potions than heal potions).

And yes, this clearly would hurt STR builds more than it would DEX builds.

[good man of god]

Can’t this just be simplified by putting a cool down on potion use? This seems needlessly complicated.

This.

Hey Garrbear.

I think the toxicity system sounds cool, and very “The Witcher” inspired. However, it also sounds very convoluted and unnecessarily complex.

I think the most straightforward and frankly best way to handle heal potion chugging, is to add diminishing returns - as suggested by Mythic. The issue isn’t with every other potion, it’s with heal potions.

Sincerely

Aren

Or this.

The proposed system is overcomplicated, it will get annoying, and is another case of doing something for the sake of doing it.

Let's keep it simple, if the change really is needed, cooldowns or diminished returns are king.

[LichBait]

A cooldown on healing potions would be nice, similar to the cooldown on Greater Restoration casts (though not nearly as long). Simple seems better.