Invisible Blade

[Zavandar]

here's my take on the div ranger variant:



actually hit your 20 dodge AC cap at 8 cha mod from div shield. you'd have 9 mod as yuan-ti, 8 as human

as you can see at 27/28, you have some tough decisions to make regarding feat selection (bspeed can also be taken on a ranger bonus feat).

the numbers are alright. don't really have complaints one way or the other.

[Dreams]

Tbh I think this would be an amazing class to back up something like a ninja styled monk/sd/ib with a katana and wakizashi.

Edit: It would be cool to see throwing weapons apply stacks of bleed as well. Darts and shurikens.

Edit 2: After testing a number of different builds, I'm finding that anything that this is slightly viable on is doing huge burst damage anyway. The bleed effect becomes nothing compared to the rest of the build, so in PvP they're either dead or you are, and in PvE you will kill the spawns too quickly to ever experience bleed.

[the grim yeeter]

So now, after the double-sided weapon AB nerf, I suppose our comparison made earlier this week changes considerably. Assuming Zav's numbers presented above, now it is:

21ranger/5IB/4div: 46 AB & 64 AC
27ranger/3monk: 49 AB & 58 AC

[jomonog]

I've seen builds of ranger/monk that would be 48AB and 62AC even with the most recent nerfs to ranger/monk ac and the q-staff changes, but i guess the numbers vary from build to build. I think the ranger27/monk3 is still a much stronger build compared to the suggested one you've got above for IB, particularly given its AC doesnt need divine shield up and the +5 weapon and damage from blade thirst.

The problem with IB in its current iteration is that there's actually very few builds that are actually possible with it given how feat hungry it is.

Your ranger/divine one is decent enough, but youre missing improved critical and probably improved expertise so its far from ideal and thats probably as good a build as you can currently make with IB given how difficult it is to work with.

I've been theorycrafting a swash/fighter/IB which also looks OK number wise but falls down alot with the problem of swash damage not currently working with offhand weapons.

I still think the restrictions/pre-reqs need to be freed up a bit for IB or else there just wont be anything super viable you can actually do with it (or at least not any I can come up with).

[the grim yeeter]

I've seen builds of ranger/monk that would be 48AB and 62AC even with the most recent nerfs to ranger/monk ac and the q-staff changes, ...

Can you show what this build looks like? You've got me curious.

I think the ranger27/monk3 is still a much stronger build compared to the suggested one you've got above for IB, particularly given its AC doesnt need divine shield up and the +5 weapon and damage from blade thirst.

+5 enchantment on weapons for its DR penetration (assuming that's why you mentioned it) is generally being given too much credit. More often than not, one breach and premonition is gone. +5 enchantment is nice mostly for the AB boost that it gives.

The point you're making about divine shield is a good one, though, which is why ranger21/5IB/4monk indeed has been looked at (Zav has composed that build as well; I'll let him post it if he feels like it), and it comes out with 1 less AC than the divine dip (so 63). And it gets to take blinding speed (which is considerably stronger on a non-div build), improved expertise, esf: disc and improved critical without sacrifice.

The problem with IB in its current iteration is that there's actually very few builds that are actually possible with it given how feat hungry it is.

I do not think this has to do with it being "feat-hungry". As I said before in this thread, you cannot really consider weapon focus a real "prerequisite" as you really always want to take that feat anyway, which leaves you two feats (both nearly completely useless, admittedly) as prerequisites. There are other classes with a similar (or higher) amount of prerequisites, and there is a good amount of building options for these classes as well.

I think the reasons why there are few options for IB builds are:
1) you need to dual-wield,
2) you can only use short sword, dagger and/or kukri,
3) you need 8 points in the PP/SoH skill, which is a class skill only for a few classes (and these classes don't synergize well with IB), which means you need to wait for long to be able to start taking levels in IB on classes like ranger, fighter, swashbuckler, etc.

Your ranger/divine one is decent enough, but youre missing improved critical and probably improved expertise so its far from ideal and thats probably as good a build as you can currently make with IB given how difficult it is to work with.

The improved critical feat really, really isn't that good as many people seem to think it is, if you're already sitting at a good enough threat range. Fighting respectable AC characters, the lower end of your threat range really doesn't have that much value generally. And fighting characters with negligible AC, you will most likely hit often enough to be able to kill without those few extra crits as well (especially if you're sitting on high AC yourself, allowing you take on fights of longer duration). I'm not saying improved critical has no value (it very much does if you're using a 20-20 weapon, especially if it's crits that you depend on). All I am saying is that it is one of the first feats you can afford to miss on most feat-hungry melee characters, especially DEX-based ones that don't really have much damage to multiply on a crit in the first place. In this particular case, you're sitting at 17-20 instead of the 15-20 that you'd have been running with improved critical. Sure, would've been nice, but it's not the end of the world.

That said, a ranger/IB/div has to make sacrifices in terms of feats, indeed. In the last sheet posted by Zav, I would opt for improved expertise over both blinding speed (it definitely still has use, even on a div dip, but much less so than before, and you don't have the rogue cooldown so, all in all, I wouldn't sacrifice improved expertise for it) and esf: discipline (as I've said before, you can get to a sufficient amount of discipline without it, even as a DEX-based character). But, I would probably go for a 21ranger/5ib/4monk myself, if I had to choose between that and the div dip.

[Dreams]

As explained here: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=30738

Remaking a different suggestion for this thread:
Instead of adding IB to allowed classes for Dead Man’s Cross (which any rogue/IB will 100% get), make an IB specific blade with literally all the same stats.

The flavour of DMC changes with every single creation of them. You’ll notice them in shops across the island, renamed, redescribed to be whatever dagger. DMC flavour is only there if the name/description remains.

[the grim yeeter]

Besides, this flavour argument really doesn't hold true if you realize that a bunch of non-assassin builds just get 30 UMD to be able to use it anyway. And the name and description can just be modified (and it is a lot of times). The flavour argument doesn't make sense.

If (a) new weapon(s) is/are added for IB, we're only once more risking inbalance (let's focus on adjusting existing things already, instead of constantly cramming in new thing after new thing, that other devs have to make right again). So if new IB weapons get introduced, then please, don't make these weapons as ridiculous as so many other items (like the WIS and DEX items that were nerfed yesterday), so that we don't have to disappoint a lot of players 6 to 12 months later again as they get, inevitably, nerfed.

[Drowboy]

From Zaphiel:
-------------
(LIVE NEXT RESET ON PGCC)
Invisible Blade Changes:
* Improved Bleeding Wound (Passive):
Critical hits now leaves 1 stack of bleeding wound. (You don't need to activate Improved Bleeding Wound for this.)
* DC for removing bleeding wound by healing kits reduced from 35 to 25.
* Crippling throw gets +3 DC if it was a sneak attack.
* Unfettered Defense now grants +1 deflection AC per INT modifier. Capped with class levels.
* Removed 6 spot pre-requisite.
* Removed mobility feat pre-requisite.
* Can now benefit from class bonuses while wearing light armor.
* Uncanny Feint:
Every two round Invisible Blade will make a sleight of hand skill check vs his current opponent's discipline.
Upon success, opponent will lose 2 AC. If invisible blade changes his opponent, old opponent will gain his AC back.
If invisible blade fails a check after a successful check, opponent will regain his lost AC.
(And no, 5 Invisible Blade feinting same opponent will not result in -10AC. It still going to be -2AC.)

Crits leaving bleed is interesting. Opens up a route for kukri shenanigans I guess.

Still would like to see the DC base calc rejiggered a bit (does spellcraft effect it, like grenades?)

Removing mobil kinda fixes the swashbuckler encouragement, I suppose, but I'm still mad wary of needing pickpocket to make this class function. It's still pickpocket. Nothing's changed but the name so far.

Light armor re-opens up rogue, which is nice, but:
+5 deflection AC? Less worry about hitting the dodge cap (divine shield incoming), and opening it up so these don't need to wear helmets is weird-

Also, now they drop AC, instead of AB, presumably because the 2 effective AC of that drop is built into the class now.

Not sure about this, will need to play around with it. Still think the AC needs to go entirely, tbh.

[the grim yeeter]

With these changes, it even more looks like the AC needs to go, indeed. Mobility no longer being needed makes the ranger builds discussed above more viable, and I don't think that's a good thing. I will also do some building to see how this works out.

[Dreams]

After more messing around with newer IB, a few bits of feedback:

- It still feels ‘stuck’ to certain classes and layouts with very little versatility.

- Expanding available weapons might help, such as any tiny/small bladed weapon. (Non-monk if that’s needed) Even consider a special ability where IB can use any dagger/sword/kukri without worrying about the UMD requirements for them - this would open up other classes too.

- Bleed doesn’t seem to stack at all. It isn’t clear if that is a bug or intended? The timer resets but multiple bleeds do not result in higher bleed damage.

- The DC on knife-throw is incredibly low (even with full INT and maximum possible Sleight), particularly since it is a reflex save to avoid. Alternatively, if it were will-save based, it would make it effective against melee targets, which is the whole purpose of using it in the first place. It’s a once in a while melee-sticky ability.

[Drowboy]

Doing some fiddling, notes as I go:
Requiring two feats and 6 to a skill means you can slot into invis blade at, like, 4. There's probably something to having a full BaB clas with sneak prog at 4 that's a bit busted but who even stays level 4 for more than ten minutes anymore

I have no comments on the abilities except: seriously, lose the AC.

Builds off top:

25 Rogue/5 IB: I feel like this is what the class is "Supposed" to do. However.
The slightly less rough feat req means you can grab it on a rogue that doesn't care about having disc (lol), but on rogue in particular it doesn't mesh well with divine dips or SD (feat heavy SD wants you grabbing fighter, as does your non-sneak damage). If you do this path, you gain like, 4d6 sneaks, a neat toy or two, and +2 Deflection AC. Don't let someone swing a KD at you. (+1 if you're a king who uses shield pots constantly). Having an extra gear slot is fine, I guess.

Swash/IB/X: The other pushed-feeling one, now obsolete. Just do any other swasher build, frankly.

Ranger 21+/IB/X: Clear winner. Ranger's dual wield means you never have to worry about feats, quite frankly, and that means you can do what you want with this. The obvious choice is a dex ranger/ib/div, probably wearing a BG helmet since dexdivs lost a couple stat points in a recent update. The AC bonus being deflection means you can stack it with haste and divine might again. Ranger doesn't, really, care about anything this class gives except AC. The rest are neat perks, at least. Div Ranger with +2 AC good for ranger, bad for overall balance.

Rogue/Fighter/IB: gross, why?

Feats/IB/x: There's probably room for some kind of fighter/WM/IB kukri monster, but if you're critblendering at like, what, 10-20/x3 you might as well do basically anything other than hope you ramp up piffling bleed damage.

To conclude: I see what you're trying to do, but rogue frankly already handles 'knife fighter with tricks' so well the class basically serves as an AC stacker for anything that can afford to burn dodge. What it does in pnp is for sure too strong for Arelith, but what we've got now is some cool ideas attached to some requirements that, still, make it a bit much. Lose the AC, require like, crippling strike for a prereq, and give it rogue progression, call it a day.

Huge Screaming Caveat: we still don't know what the proposed sleight of hand change looks like, and given that it can range anywhere from 'mandatory on anyone who can take it' to 'straight up prereq tax for one class with no other use' it's still hard to judge this class fairly. Imagine having to judge, well, rogue, without knowing what hide and ms was going to do in a week.

[Drowboy]

Well that opens swashbuckler back up. Say, a one-handee with an open offhand can use parry ac and saves three feats right

So if you do like rogue/ib5/bg3 you hit around.. 67 ac, before expertise?

[AstralUniverse]

I'm counting..
10 + 5 rogue + 6 dex + 7 armor + 3 IB + 4 natural + 4 deflection + 6 parry (Although I dont think you can get it on this class?) + 1 ma + 1 boots + 2 armor skin + 6 tumble + 4 haste + 9 divine shield = 68. However, dodge modifier is 23 so AC is capped at 65, but the class description says you must dual wield so I dont think parry ac is worth it, unless I'm missing something. Without parry ac, it is 60 with skleen, and 62 with wakizashi.

[Drowboy]

Invisible Blade Changes

* Invisible Blade can now benefit from class bonuses if wielding a class weapon and off-hand is empty.
* Invisible Blade levels now stacks with Rogue levels for "Lightly Armored" bonus.
* Invisible Blade levels now contributes to cooldown reduction of Blinding Speed.
* Crippling Throw DC calculation changed to (Invisible Blade levels * 2) + INT modifier + (Sleight of Hands / 3). It was Invisible Blade levels + INT modifier + (Sleight of Hands / 3) before.
* Crippling Throw now applies 3 bleeding wound stacks and 25% movement speed decrease without reflex save. Reflex save is still rolled and upon fail, duration is extended to 2 rounds and also slow effect is applied.

From the discord

[AstralUniverse]

Invisible Blade Changes

* Invisible Blade can now benefit from class bonuses if wielding a class weapon and off-hand is empty.
* Invisible Blade levels now stacks with Rogue levels for "Lightly Armored" bonus.
* Invisible Blade levels now contributes to cooldown reduction of Blinding Speed.
* Crippling Throw DC calculation changed to (Invisible Blade levels * 2) + INT modifier + (Sleight of Hands / 3). It was Invisible Blade levels + INT modifier + (Sleight of Hands / 3) before.
* Crippling Throw now applies 3 bleeding wound stacks and 25% movement speed decrease without reflex save. Reflex save is still rolled and upon fail, duration is extended to 2 rounds and also slow effect is applied.

From the discord

Thanks.

And wow. That AC potential is disgusting. is the +3 dodge out yet?

[Ork]

Yes.

[Drowboy]

It's int mod deflection, max of class levels now. So +5.

[the grim yeeter]

* Invisible Blade levels now contributes to cooldown reduction of Blinding Speed.

I'm not sure whether this is that good of an idea. This practically means that builds like 25rogue/5ib and 7rogue/18sd/5ib have undispellable permahaste (bspeed lasts 3 turns, bspeed cooldown counter starts upon activation, and you've lowered the cooldown duration to 3 turns). Both of these builds have 4 apr. Sure, no discipline, granted, but builds like these (e.g., high AC, epic dodge, hips, shadow evade, shadow displacement) can get away with not having very high discipline.

[AstralUniverse]

It's int mod deflection, max of class levels now. So +5.

Sorry but where are you guys knowing that stuff from? I just checked discord too and cant find any notice about this. Thank you.

Also, please explain to me how replacing +3 dodge modifier with +5 deflection modifier is a good thing? I think it's even worse, unless I'm missing something.

+3 dodge on a 5 lvl class is likely to clash with divine shield, EMA, palemaster, and overkill the dodge bonus.
+5 deflection on the other hand, this replaces Shield potion (which is breachable) and offers more, hard and undispellable ac instead, while not counting for dodge modifier and still allowing divine dip shenanigans at their finest.

This is beyond me here. I think is a huge buff to this class in exactly the area where it was already too strong. I like decision making in this game. I dont like when one option is obviously better than everything else. And on my currently on going rogue/bg I really want to have some kind of reason NOT to pick this class too, not just 100% reasons to slap it in, instead of 5 rogue lvls.

And I also agree about blinding speed. I said this back when it was argued to stack with archer ranger, and it is a terrible design idea to allow permahaste on characters with full bab progression in their spread. Invis blade allows to max out apr and for that reason I think blinding speed stacking should be removed.

[the grim yeeter]

+3 dodge on a 5 lvl class is likely to clash with divine shield, EMA, palemaster, and overkill the dodge bonus.

This is not that likely, really. Sure, it may exceed the dodge cap by just 1 in the case of the earlier-discussed (in this thread) ranger/ib/div build (if you even have all the possible dodge AC increase sources activated simultaneously in the first place, that is), but that was solved by settling for a CHA mod of 8. Both div and non-div builds benefit hugely from a flat +3 dodge AC increase. No doubt about that.

+5 deflection on the other hand, this replaces Shield potion (which is breachable) and offers more, hard and undispellable ac instead, while not counting for dodge modifier and still allowing divine dip shenanigans at their finest.

I do agree that +5 deflection is just a tad too much, though. +4 would've been better, I think. It's like an unbreachable/undispellable Shield potion, but only offers one more deflection AC than a helmet does. Even +3 deflection AC would already have been a buff because it means you get to replace your adamantine helmet with a helmet that offers different buffs (e.g., blackguard helmet, elven helmet, enchanted iron helmet, or just an enchanted bronze helmet).

Also, yes. IB changes are being pretty poorly documented here. I couldn't find the AC change either, but maybe I'm just not looking in the right places? It's also seen huge changes multiple times already, while only having been added 13 days ago. I know some people think that's justified by "it only being available in the PGCC still", but I do think that documentation should be very clear at least, if the class keeps seeing these significant swings in such a brief period of time.

[AstralUniverse]

I do agree that +5 deflection is just a tad too much, though. +4 would've been better, I think. It's like an unbreachable/undispellable Shield potion, but only offers one more deflection AC than a helmet does. Even +3 deflection AC would already have been a buff because it means you get to replace your adamantine helmet with a helmet that offers different buffs (e.g., blackguard helmet, elven helmet, enchanted iron helmet, or just an enchanted bronze helmet).

you either replace Shield potion with it and then it's 1 more ac and unbreachable or you've replaced a helmet slot with it. Either way, it's insanely good and honestly ever since we've opened light armors this class looks too strong. Ac should go entirely imo but if it was just +4 to simply make a breachable ac unbreachable then I guess it wouldnt be too terrible.

[the grim yeeter]

* Crippling Throw now applies 3 bleeding wound stacks and 25% movement speed decrease without reflex save. Reflex save is still rolled and upon fail, duration is extended to 2 rounds and also slow effect is applied.

I also think this is way, way too strong. Movement speed increase/decrease is, in a lot of cases, absolutely game-changing in PvP, a matter of winning or losing. People underestimate the effect of movement speed way too much/often. An uncounterable 25% movement speed decrease without save especially is simply too powerful. 10% would've been a better number, even though I think the movement speed decrease shouldn't be there at all in the first place.

[Zaphiel]

Freedom of movement is always your friend.

Also I don't think breachable part is relevant for mundanes. (Against a mage, it is of course. But I doubt mage will care about your AC unless you have GSF: Abju. And if we going to assume 1 mundane and 1 mage against a IB, that would be entirely different discussion.) It is at the end of breach list. It is not going to be breached unless you use greater breach. And it is still not 100%. I am not sure how it is wise to use two time lesser breach and burn your 2 rounds. Also all updates about invisible blade is announced in Arelith Updates thread and discord announcements channel.

[AstralUniverse]

Freedom of movement is always your friend.

Also I don't think breachable part is relevant for mundanes. (Against a mage, it is of course. But I doubt mage will care about your AC unless you have GSF: Abju. And if we going to assume 1 mundane and 1 mage against a IB, that would be entirely different discussion.) It is at the end of breach list. It is not going to be breached unless you use greater breach. And it is still not 100%. I am not sure how it is wise to use two time lesser breach and burn your 2 rounds. Also all updates about invisible blade is announced in Arelith Updates thread and discord announcements channel.

I truly wonder what buffs your mundane IB build is wearing at the start of the fight that are breachable other than Shield potion and mage armor and these two buffs can give a geared character up to 5 ac. As mundane, it seems very worth for me to spend a round breaching those at the start of the fight. Reaching lesser breach scrolls lore req is really easy too. And for the sake of the argument, even if you do spend more time buffing yourself harder (freedom, NEP, i dunno) then it's still worth spending time breaching you over and over.

[Zaphiel]

Freedom of movement is always your friend.

Also I don't think breachable part is relevant for mundanes. (Against a mage, it is of course. But I doubt mage will care about your AC unless you have GSF: Abju. And if we going to assume 1 mundane and 1 mage against a IB, that would be entirely different discussion.) It is at the end of breach list. It is not going to be breached unless you use greater breach. And it is still not 100%. I am not sure how it is wise to use two time lesser breach and burn your 2 rounds. Also all updates about invisible blade is announced in Arelith Updates thread and discord announcements channel.

I truly wonder what buffs your mundane IB build is wearing at the start of the fight that are breachable other than Shield potion and mage armor and these two buffs can give a geared character up to 5 ac. As mundane, it seems very worth for me to spend a round breaching those at the start of the fight. Reaching lesser breach scrolls lore req is really easy too.

Every mundane walks with mage armor, negative energy protection, protection from elements. If an obvious fight going to happen, you will have stoneskin. Shadow shield can be added for some classes as well. Mind blank too. (Not lesser one, it is at the end of list.) You can still chug death armor potion just for preventing losing more valuable wards in cost of half round. Freedom of movement case to case.