Pickpocket update

ReverentBlade · Post by **ReverentBlade** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:46 am

Since you can kill a PC and take all the gold on them by picking up the corpse, maybe we should have the same option for subdual. Less than lethal muggings (and taking your pickpocketed gold back plus a bit of extra a-hole tax) could be a thing.

Post by **Ork** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:53 am

I'd agree with that, grim, if I hadn't experienced the utter visceral hate that comes from the player when pickpocketed. As it stands now, you receive a warning you've been pickpocketed which gives substantially more evidence to "who dun it" than ever before, and I think thats fair for who we are as a collective community.

the grim yeeter · Post by **the grim yeeter** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:07 am

Ork wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:53 am I'd agree with that, grim, if I hadn't experienced the utter visceral hate that comes from the player when pickpocketed.

I think that hateful reaction is provoked exactly because of the entire act being performed without roleplay coming from the thief. I know my annoyance with whenever people's characters (be it mine or others') being pickpocketed definitely comes solely from the fact it is done without roleplay. If we make it require roleplay, then I'm quite sure players whose characters are being robbed will react significantly less hatefully.

Nitro · Post by **Nitro** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:13 am

Also to be fair, PvP'ing and killing someone within a minute was previously the only way to guarantee you'd get your item back. If you stopped to RP with them and they just stalled a little you'd lose all the initiative and it became entirely up to the pickpocket whether you'd ever get that item back. So I completely understand people turning to hair-trigger PvP when the system as it was all but demanded it.

Post by **The GrumpyCat** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:24 pm

Re Bank Account; I get that it's not neccesarly the most immersive or realistic of options. But it's well balenced and neat, and sometimes we sacrifice 'immersion' for gameplay. If we wanted to go full immersive, we'd have every pc on a one life MOD after all.

Re Killing Pickpockets.
I mean yeah, ideally people shouldn't be just murdering pickpockets after. I wouldn't say I'd lower their rpr for it, but it probably wouldn't consider it good form either, and it may come into later RPR calculations. Especialy now that Subdual is an option.

That said I'll also add that I get that if the thief isn't playing along, or of you're acting quickly - you may forget to use -subdual and might act on instinct. It isn't great. I would rather it didn't happen, certainly but I don't think we can be completely unforgiving about it.

The idea about being subuded making you loose your gold is interesting actually, and I'll confess I rather like it. That should be suggested!

Zavandar · Post by **Zavandar** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:16 pm

never encountered a pickpocket that didnt immediately try to wordlessly leave, caught or not

doesnt mean i didnt try to rp with them. most of the time I did, they would (again, wordlessly) just try to run

new system doesnt change that. a pickpocket that gets caught is a bad pickpocket. they are not incentivized to roleplay with you or stick around (especially since there are guaranteed notifications now). I dont get why people expect the etiquette of the pickpocketer to suddenly change with this patch.

Halibutthead · Post by **Halibutthead** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:03 pm

Zavandar and i share that experience.

every single time, and i mean EVERY SINGLE TIME that i, personally, have seen a blade orb go off, it has resulted in the instant logoff of the pickpocket. usually they come back, but as soon as the paralysis wears off, they sprint away without a word (and complain at you in tells if you try to stop them). not very fun in any way, but that's just what i've seen.

as for playing a pickpocket... it's not very fun, either. you give ANY indication that your character might pickpocket, and you can watch them all but flee, or at least express their displeasure in the situation (hey, i don't want to have my pockets picked, either. i get it).

ultimately, pickpocketing is extremely difficult to do in a way that both players have fun. by its very nature, it's simply anti-fun. one skill roll, with one person winning or losing. if you don't have spot, ggwp (well, it's a bit different now, but you get what i'm saying). if you rolled too low on your PP, ggwp. the pocket picker is the only one who can really benefit from the situation, and the one getting his pockets picked can *at best* not lose anything.

that's not to say it's bad, that i'm not interested in seeing how things go, or even that i'd prefer if people didn't do it. it's simply the reality that it's a tough thing to make fun. i like the changes so far, in theory, but this won't be an easy animal to tame, and i don't think there is a real simple solution to the fun factor.

Scurvy Cur · Post by **Scurvy Cur** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:28 pm

For my part, whether a pickpocket gets bashed or roleplayed with depends almost entirely on how they react to the notification that they've been caught.

If it's a wordless and instant sprint for a transition while I'm composing a reply, they're probably getting killed over the incident.

If the roleplay leads to what feels like a flat refusal to return my items (In some cases I've even been told something along the lines of "kill me then, I've still got your emeralds"), they're probably getting killed over the incident.

If they stop and roleplay a little and try to talk their way out of it/show some willingness to work with me, they mostly won't have anything worse to them than being required to give my items back and a stern warning not to do it again.

I've probably killed over 95% of the pickpockets I've caught.

Edit: Halibutthead has a good point. A big part of what's objectionable about pickpocketing and (I suspect) a large part of why they get killed so often is that the victim's best possible outcome is getting stolen money/things back. If there's been no roleplay leading up to/surrounding the theft and there's nothing but a choice between a negative and a neutral outcome for the victim, it's not surprising that they're probably not going to turn around and leave the pickpocket a whole lot of room to work with in turn. The pickpocket has not shown that they're interested in treating the other player as anything but a container full of loot, so why expend a lot of effort trying to weave a big narrative around the incident? They're probably looking for the way out of the scenario that leaves them interacting as little as possible with the pickpocket because it's not particularly interesting roleplay. Punching a big hole in the pickpocket and getting your stuff back is the quickest way out.

Gouge Away · Post by **Gouge Away** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:37 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 2:24 pm Re Bank Account; I get that it's not neccesarly the most immersive or realistic of options. But it's well balenced and neat, and sometimes we sacrifice 'immersion' for gameplay. If we wanted to go full immersive, we'd have every pc on a one life MOD after all.

Re Killing Pickpockets.
I mean yeah, ideally people shouldn't be just murdering pickpockets after. I wouldn't say I'd lower their rpr for it, but it probably wouldn't consider it good form either, and it may come into later RPR calculations. Especialy now that Subdual is an option.

That said I'll also add that I get that if the thief isn't playing along, or of you're acting quickly - you may forget to use -subdual and might act on instinct. It isn't great. I would rather it didn't happen, certainly but I don't think we can be completely unforgiving about it.

The idea about being subuded making you loose your gold is interesting actually, and I'll confess I rather like it. That should be suggested!

As some of us are saying, before the update if you killed a pickpocket within a very short time frame you got your item back. I am not sure if this is still the case or not but I think that is largely why it’s immediately reacted to with violence. The existence of that mechanic steers or steered player behavior and implies that this reaction is OK or even approved. So maybe that mechanic just needs to go (if it’s still there) or the time frame needs to be much longer if RP afterwards is to be encouraged.

Frankly in the past pickpocketing also made you a pariah in most cases.. it’s one of those things that ruins a character’s name in their community permanently so it was rarely worth the risk to me... From what I’ve seen murder is treated as less of a violation than petty theft. I’d love it if it was encouraged to be treated as a minor crime but I don’t know if that’s something players will bring about themselves. Lots of zero tolerance attitudes out there IC.

Drowboy · Post by **Drowboy** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:40 pm

This is such a weird conversation to have, as if the only recourse players had for over a decade was to murder the pickpocket to get their stuff back in the exact moment. Or it's just gone, forever, as the pickpocket almost certainly sprints away never to show their face near you again (and in a lot of cases goes on a pickpocket spree and then logs the hell off forever).

Like, the literal interaction process was

>No RP PP
>Can only, ONLY get your item back via murder for the vast majority (99%) of pickpocketers. no rp pp is somehow not griefing
>'how come people murder each other over pickpocketing'

Have we just not been watching the server? Or, for that matter, like, gankbox pvp games? Losing your gear is almost always worse than dying across most games.

the grim yeeter · Post by **the grim yeeter** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:04 pm

Drowboy wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:40 pm Have we just not been watching the server?

This is the question that pops up in my head when I see people saying that pickpocketing can lead to interesting roleplay, or roleplay at all. Like Zavandar, Halibutthead, Scurvy Cur, Drowboy et al. have all suggested just now, it really never has, and I can attest to that, based on my decade-and-a-half of experience on Arelith. And it's naive to think it might change with the current system. I know some people really badly want thievery RP to be a thing, but it's not going to happen with a pickpocket PvP mechanic like this. It really isn't.

NPC Logger Number 2 · Post by **NPC Logger Number 2** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:26 pm

Out of my 3,500 hours on Arelith I've seen thief RP done well maybe once. Vance stole some painting from someone's quarter then left notes taunting the owner and I would assume gave them an opportunity to get it back through RP. But of course not every player is Vance and I do not think it is fair to hold everyone to that high of a standard.

Most people complaining about getting bashed probably deserved it I'm guessing. Stealing is against the law in most places and is considered an evil action, if you get caught there will be consequences. The people who dish out those consequences should not be bullied OOCly or assumed to be bad role players because they are maintaining the integrity of the setting. This isn't Skyrim where you can just quick-save before pickpocketing someone and reload when caught to avoid consequences.

PVP is RP and if you steal from my character chances are they'd rather just cut your head off than engage in a 3 hour long philosophical debate.

Gouge Away · Post by **Gouge Away** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:33 pm

To get players to lighten up about minor theft we would probably need to see settlements treat vigilante and retribution murders in their borders as crimes. As in, if you kill a pickpocket in town instead of subduing and reporting them to the guard you’re a criminal too.

the grim yeeter · Post by **the grim yeeter** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:58 pm

Gouge Away wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:33 pm To get players to lighten up about minor theft we would probably need to see settlements treat vigilante and retribution murders in their borders as crimes. As in, if you kill a pickpocket in town instead of subduing and reporting them to the guard you’re a criminal too.

What would this add/solve?

Gouge Away · Post by **Gouge Away** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:14 pm

Assuming anyone but me actually wants minor crimes to have appropriate punishments? It would discourage murdering the thief immediately and instead encourage you to subdue them or get their description and then report it to a guard who would then dole out whatever punishment is deemed appropriate by the law of the land, which for a small crime like pickpocketing should be lighter than "you steal, I kill you." That mentality is appropriate in indifferent Anundor, lawless Sencliff, maybe a frontier town like Skal but a big supposedly civilized city like Cordor might rather their justice system handle such matters.

Honestly knowing Arelith I don't expect this to be a possibility, it's like trusting people not to go nuclear over breaking a disguise or spotting pirate tattoos. We don't do subtlety well at all. But if we want pickpocketing and other minor crimes to be a "thing" and for RP to come from it instead of immediate vengeance PVP (I want this, I don't think everyone is on board *shrugs*) we have to do something to dissuade it. Right now, from what I've seen at least, it's totally okay for you to kill someone in the middle of Cordor if you catch them pickpocketing. And considering the mechanics historically rewarded you for doing this, who could blame you?

NPC Logger Number 2 · Post by **NPC Logger Number 2** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:45 pm

At the heart of it all, pickpocketing is and should be treated as PVP imo. Someone chopping your head off for it is a pretty steep escalation I'll admit, but you're still the aggressor in that situation and in a medieval/fantasy-ish setting with demons and dragons where most of the gameplay is violent battles, someone using violence to defend their property seems pretty appropriate to me. Pickpocket any NPC in any RPG and almost always their solution is to either try to kill you, or summon guards who try to kill you. I think if settlement guards go out of their way to RP doling out more appropriate punishments for petty crimes players will probably be willing to use subdual and try to create more RP but the thief has just as much obligation to create RP opportunities if not more so imo.

Also, would a good thief really run up and try to pickpocket the 7 foot tall jacked half-orc barbarian wearing nothing but a loincloth and carrying a glowing red scythe in the middle of the street in broad daylight? A lot of these pickpocket complaints about being bashed could be solved by playing a little smarter and picking your targets more carefully I think. Observe your surroundings and prey on weaker targets that can't rearrange your character's bone structure with their bare hands. This example is purely made up and hypothetical but I can imagine plenty of these situations probably happen that are nearly as ridiculous.

Baseili · Post by **Baseili** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:19 pm

Is there any wonder theres been no good pickpockets on the server, you can't hang around and RP after because its flagged as a PvP so you get killed. You can't run off to avoid it because thats bad too, which also apparently leads you to death. Is there going to be some ground given or is it going to be the old standby of hounding the player till they stop and/or leave the server?

NPC Logger Number 2 · Post by **NPC Logger Number 2** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 8:46 pm

Good pickpocket RP could be done. But you would probably have to build your entire character concept around coming across as extremely sympathetic and even then be careful not to pickpocket the wrong marks. An old impoverished weak granny who steals for food will probably be forgiven if caught pickpocketing a Paladin. Some grizzled middle aged man wearing black plate armor adorned with skulls with a greatsword probably won't. Nobody really feels sorry for a thief unless that thief is old, crippled, a child, etc.. If some grown able-bodied person came to me and told me they got beat up because they were trying to steal someone's wallet I would not feel sorry for them and lets be honest most other people probably wouldn't either.

So you pretty much have to make an extremely weak and sympathetic character and have the best RP and even then don't mess with the wrong people... And really, who wants to play a weak character designed to conceptually and mechanically grief other players in the first place? Does the rare good role play that might come from that kind of "thief rp" really justify it in the end? It might be a fun concept to play for a short while but I bet most people would get tired of playing that kind of character quick. Unless you're playing a disabled commoner there's really no good IC justification for stealing from others when you can just go kill some goblins and make thousands of gold the honest way even at a low level, so it's hard to do without coming across as a griefer.

Gouge Away · Post by **Gouge Away** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:16 pm

Well, that's why I'd like to see Sleight of Hand give to ability to put something into someone's inventory. Sneaking a note into someone's pocket is a much more interesting use of the skill RP-wise than stealing <3000 gold.

Nitro · Post by **Nitro** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:26 pm

Hard agree on that point. Planting items on someone and stealing quarter keys can both lead to a lot of future RP. Gold theft? Likely just a one-way trip to PvP town.

Baseili · Post by **Baseili** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:43 pm

That not really describing a good pickpocket, more like an RP barrier against repercussions and a very narrow one at that.

How is an accomplished thief supposed to act? Is it acceptable for them to disappear into the crowd? Would people actually entertain some misdirection if they're caught or simply kill them? How is the thief supposed to get a win when everything they potentially do is seen as bad?

Every reply is the same "dont steal, theres no RP its just griefing!" What about creating an investigation? Hunting down possible leads? Giving guards and investigator characters something to do? The list goes on. Does that not constitute RP?

Nitro · Post by **Nitro** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:13 pm

Baseili wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 9:43 pm Every reply is the same "dont steal, theres no RP its just griefing!" What about creating an investigation? Hunting down possible leads? Giving guards and investigator characters something to do? The list goes on. Does that not constitute RP?

Sure, but how often does that happen compared to the far more common wordless pickpocket into a benny hills chase if discovered?

Baseili · Post by **Baseili** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:31 pm

I have only seen one pickpocket in my time on the server who got stung by a blade orb and instantly killed without a word. I honestly can't blame anyone running away if that is the common response, sometimes it takes offering a chance to someone to make a situation better.

Nitro · Post by **Nitro** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:34 pm

That road goes both ways, the onus isn't just on the victim to RP but the thief too.

Baseili · Post by **Baseili** » Sat Oct 31, 2020 10:43 pm

That leads back to my initial question, how is a thief suppose to act?

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