Invisible Blade

[AstralUniverse]

You might be right actually. I dont want to discuss it further and enter party vs party situation where everything is very situational and you might as well eat an abjurer's disjuction instead of a lesser breach scroll. You might have a bard, enemy team might not have a bard and it's gg. Either way, I just currently think that with light armor (and rogue bonus ac if it's rogue build) it reaches really crazy ac. 78 ac on a rogue/bg/ib, a class combination that gets a lot of sources of offense, is just insane and I dont want to have to play that on my rogue bg or feel 'meh' for passing away on (nearly) free 2 ac, Bleed, 1 ab, all of the class's abilities for basically just +4 weapon instead of +5 (as I wont have 24th rogue).

-Blinding speed CDR should not scale with full bab classes at all. (Swashbuckler is not an issue because it's 1/2 and no permahaste accessible)
- +5 deflection bonus should go.
That's my honest opinion from my testing.

[Zaphiel]

Every feedback is appreciated. Expect changes in future as well. Also, we are not going to release the class until pickpocket is reworked for obvious reasons.

[the grim yeeter]

Freedom of movement is always your friend.

You can't just assume both parties are fully buffed at the start.

If your intent is to slow someone to catch them, them having to stop to apply FoM means the desired effect is reached as it helps you catch them. The fact that your enemy has to (as in, they cannot even make a save to prevent this) apply FoM is in itself an advantage. You gain a round advantage (two if you count resto vs. bleed). You don't just "use FoM", you have to use FoM and that takes you out for a round.

That said, the movement speed decrease is mostly useful in group PvP, and not so much in 1v1s, as you'd take a full round yourself to use the ability as well.

And it is still not 100%. I am not sure how it is wise to use two time lesser breach and burn your 2 rounds.

It's wise exactly for how long it is worth using. That is, if it means I can take away 4 AC (and potential IGMS immunity) from someone (and another spell), I'll breach (and kite) as many times as I need to, if that means I get a big enough advantage out of it.

Keep in mind, whenever I say "ability x is too powerful", context is taken into consideration. Like AstralUniverse already suggested, it's not so much separate abilities that are insanely strong, rather than the combination of all. And in the case of the current IB, it probably could toned down a notch.

[Rico_scorpion]

My opinion on IB so far is that I would rather have a class with proper skill and/or feat gating and some oomph to it that to slowly streamline it into a no synergy-no "yay" feeling, just a full bab class with tumble and sneak and a couple gimmicks.

Bonus: If we remove the current ideas about rogue synergy (blinding speed, lightly armored), and AC, please, at least, buff Bleed, so that at least the only defining identity of the class really impacts the way you play. I have the feeling that anything you can apply decent bleed numbers to, is probably already dead to normal sneak attack damage or mass crit strikes.... at which point the bleed is purely cosmetic more than an actual playstyle.

Losing 1d6 sneak attack for 1 bleed damage, means a target has to survive 4 rounds for the bleed to actually compensate the lost damage. Except for boss fights, beefy melees in pve, and pvp (but even then, only niche fights last that long), this is a scenario you never quite meet.

So as far as there's back and forth about "perfect pvp meta" about the boons that gravitate around the class, I'm still worried (but hey maybe i'm completely wrong, and willing to admit it!), that no one picks the class for its defining feature.

So I would say it has to be one of the three (in my order of preference):

- High prerequesites for big overall oomph
- Low-ish prerequesites (like now) and very strong main mechanic and weaker side-boons (you pick the class for the bleed)
- Low-ish prerequesites, flavorful but gimmicky main mechanic and strong side-boons (builders-friendly but super boring in itself)

Please do not gut it and I advise keeping the obvious synergies on (blinding speed and rogue) (otherwise it feels arbitrary and we're back to the streamlining problems that was adressed a couple months ago, where things feel "arbitrary", it feels like it should be treated as a "rogue class" but it's not, etc), so yeah, i'm firmly in the "gate it further" territory" to reign-in divine dips or "i took it for the AC" people, if that's the issue

My two cents! cheers and keep up the good work.

Edit: just for the sake of suggesting something for the bleed (note: i didn't think too much, sue me): as long as you have sneak attacks, you can choose the number of sneak attacks you remove to transform them into bleed. Also, each removed sneak attack (no matter the source), gives 2 bleed damage, not 1. So Mister Rogue Mac-sneak, with his 15d6 sneak, could, if he wants to, strike like a wet noodle (almost no damage), but give extreme amounts of bleeds as unique way to kill. Compare that with a steady amount of IGMS or WM-crits, and I find that hardly broken. Yes it's dangerous, but well, any level 30 dps-machine is. AND, you need to hit to apply any bleed so... AND they are removable relatively easily, so...

[Xerah]

Doesn't seem like you give up anything on a rogue build to take IB.

[Baseili]

If you're taking it with 25 levels of rogue you do miss out on a feat and discipline but you're also not gaining much for that investment either, the bleed is simply too weak to be considered a worthwhile tradeoff.
For example, opening combat with crippling throw nets you 9 stacks of the bleed whereas opening with just sneak attacks is three chances at 13d6, 4 more damage per strike bare minimum or a whopping 74 at best. Similar thing with invisible strike, 3 damage vs 3d6 and on this server were burst damage is king it simply doesnt cut it.

My suggestion would be to double or even triple the bleed damage and switch the skill required to intimidate so that more than rogue and bard can take it.

[AstralUniverse]

So Mister Rogue Mac-sneak, with his 15d6 sneak, could, if he wants to, strike like a wet noodle (almost no damage), but give extreme amounts of bleeds as unique way to kill. Compare that with a steady amount of IGMS or WM-crits, and I find that hardly broken.

It would make a lot of sense if we were talking about a class that scales past 5 lvls. So this Bleed mechanic could hit that ridiculous damage with class investment of 10+ lvls and then we can talk more about that 'oomph' you're looking for, rather than just keeping it simple and builder friendly. In 5 lvls, it can practically just replace any third class in popular builds that needs tumble and a full bab, BUT it can add flavor, building diversity and can remain at least somewhat in line with other builds endgame numbers (right now I think it's too strong). I dont think you can accomplish a lot more than that with a 5 lvl class. I will say, tho, that since I still cant tell exactly how useful and impactful this bleed is going to be on endgame builds on the live server for clear certainty, that maybe the bleed damage could be higher than it is now, if things like the ac and blinding speed synergy are gone. That should give the class more identity.

[Dreams]

I think removing the dual-wielding component was an excellent change, it opens up some more variation in how we build an IB.

I would get rid of:
* Invisible Blade levels now stacks with Rogue levels for "Lightly Armored" bonus.
* Invisible Blade levels now contributes to cooldown reduction of Blinding Speed.

I assume the new crippling throw only lasts 1 round? 6 second slow is a great gap closer, not super OP.

[the grim yeeter]

Live Now
=======
From Zaphiel:
-------------
Invisible Blade
* Unfettered Defense now grants +1 deflection AC bonus per base int modifier + 1. Cannot exceed class level. And it is capped with 4.
* After further discussion among team, Invisible Blade no longer reduces cooldown of Blinding Speed and it doesn't stack with rogue levels for rogue's "Lightly Armored" bonus.

This was good. I think IB's in a good position now.

[AstralUniverse]

Yep. looks a lot better.

For example... my 24/6 rogue bg build could be 21 rogue, 4 bg, 5 IB.

Now, I lose ac potential for this decision, but my Shield potion is effectively permanent, which frees my helmet slot for stats/skills and there's all the class abilities, to compensate for the lose of 24th rogue boons. It would also mean I need to replace two skills with Parry and Sleight of Hand, which probably means no detection. Now there's decision making for me here and not just straight upgrade to rogue lvls.

[Xerah]

You have base 18 INT to get that?

[AstralUniverse]

You have base 18 INT to get that?

Why would I want 18 int? it says base int mod + 1, capped at +4 (16 int).

[Xerah]

Oh I missed that it was +1. I don't think that should be there. Most take INT up to 16 with a gift which means it's not a choice at all.

To make it simple when comparing 24/6 vs 19/6/5IB, you're giving up:

LOSE:
Some good rogue grenades
+1 AB on weapon (fine which dead man's hands)
20% stealth movement
+1 AB out of stealth
2 turn cooldown on blinding speed (instead of 1)
+3 spot/listen
1 Epic rogue feat
Extra non-epic feat (don't need to take dodge)

GAIN:
IB abilities
More ac from helm and thus extra slot
Extra +1 AB in pre epic (assuming 12/4/4 split; basically cancelling out the +6 dead man's hands)


Perhaps it's closer than I thought.

[BobTheSkull]

Chiming in here:

Crippling strike should be moved to free action. Currently it is a standard action (1 round to complete) and sacrifice all other attacks that round for a 1 round slow, which by it's own timing definition. You can't move during your standard action, and they move at -25% speed for theirs, it doesn't actually close a gap (you can close a gap slightly if you have haste up when you use the ability as you move full speed for half the round. However to use a haste pot takes half the round so you are still at a negative distance gain for using crippling throw in it's current form.

You also are at a significant DPS loss from this. You lose 5 APR at max level for 1 crippling throw. That is a loss of any damage in exchange for 3 stacks of bleed that can be removed in half a round with a heal kit at a 28DC + the healing. So you have lost a full round of damage and not caught up to the target, and the target has either ignored the 3 damage tick or has healed while you did nothing.

If it is a free action, it still doesn't do a ton, you get a nice slow to melee but a 2 minute CD makes it not reliable for it. So really it is just a fun flavor item to throw out on CD (which is fine!) and at best a slight threat build as people worry about that bleed tick and make stop to heal instead of ignore. But on 2 min CD that will only ever happen once per fight.

[AstralUniverse]

Oh I missed that it was +1. I don't think that should be there. Most take INT up to 16 with a gift which means it's not a choice at all.

To make it simple when comparing 24/6 vs 19/6/5IB, you're giving up:

LOSE:
Some good rogue grenades
+1 AB on weapon (fine which dead man's hands)
20% stealth movement
+1 AB out of stealth
2 turn cooldown on blinding speed (instead of 1)
+3 spot/listen
1 Epic rogue feat
Extra non-epic feat (don't need to take dodge)

GAIN:
IB abilities
More ac from helm and thus extra slot
Extra +1 AB in pre epic (assuming 12/4/4 split; basically cancelling out the +6 dead man's hands)


Perhaps it's closer than I thought.

There's also a slight lose in over all ac potential as you get 4 ac rogue ac instead of 6. I suppose it can be argued that it's worth it due to having an undispellable permanent +4 deflection but the ac cap of the build is down to 74 for yuan-ti. it's just a shift in strategy. Without IB it's more bursty. You get your +5 vs dr with rapier and you can destroy casters faster where as if you take IB you cant even fit imp crit in the div build and you are relegated to dmc to get the +5 vs dr. However, the bleed damage is supposed to be really obnoxious for the enemy in longer fights so it pushes the advantage in that strategy. ... Oh and I agree with you that it could easily be +4 ac at 18 int rather than 16 or just capped at +3. I think most people take 14 int.