Earthkin Defender Changes Thread!

[Mattamue]

I can't see where this is clear on the Wiki, so the description there may need a change. This is the same with other tier III class feats?

Yes, the same with other tier III feats and below is from the wiki:

[Gorirah]

Thanks for the Wiki pointer. I had been expecting to see the tier III ones under the list of epic class feats. Was evidently somehow blind to looking elsewhere.

It's probably not right to describe Iron Stance as bearing penalty to synergy, as there would be no such penalty in the case of taking only 7 to 9 levels. 10th can become an arbitrary stepping stone if you intend epic feats.
I have no reason to grumble, the class has been significantly empowered and, as was said, both Safeguard and Banner have some potential at first tier. The work is appreciated

[Gorirah]

Is the new Defender DR applying correctly and stacking with the Epic DR feats?
With 14 levels in Earthkin Defender and Epic Damage Reduction III, I am only seeing 9 points of DR deducted from incoming hits.

Edit:
I have not been able to reproduce the issue today. I think this can be disregarded for now.

[mjones3]

Can we add a 1 or .5 second cooldown between activating and de-activating the defensive stance? The amount of times I've double clicked it and not been able to use it is shameful. I feel like it wouldn't really effect it either, just prevent mishaps of leaving the stance by accident when trying to activate.

[The Magical Space Papa]

i love it, thanks aniel

[Gorirah]

I think there maybe a bug with the first tier of Safeguard.
I did take it as a single tier feat, but the feat seems not to get added to the character sheet and I can't find a way of triggering it.

On the test server, I made an Eathkin and gave them the first tier of Safeguard. Again it did not appear in the character sheet feat list. I went on there to take the second tier feat and Improved Safeguard did appear correctly in the character sheet feat list. Greater Safeguard appears and works correctly too, only the first tier does not.

[miesny_jez]

The safeguard 1 bug is still present.

I also found another bug in Magebane feat.

Accordingly to the feat description it should include the EDR in the gained SR calculation.
This is not working.

Also it is not documented how much of an increase the EDR feats actually give. I had expected that to be 2 SR per EDR feat (monk analogue)

[Gorirah]

The Wiki has a different story on Magebane; 12 + Defender Level.
The feat description would imply it is 11 + Defender DR + Epic DR, so it would be 33 max (13/- from Defender DR and 9/- from Epic DR).

I'm guessing the Wiki description is correct although the feat description makes the SR a more exclusive to those who invest in the epic feats.

[Papi J]

I have Safeguard 2, and it does not show up on my radial - not even on my character sheet. I have 19 DD levels, meaning I would have 7 DD feats, yet I only have 5 since Safeguard 2 does not show.

Magebane's spell resistance is not working - confirmed several times.

[miesny_jez]

Magebane's spell resistance is not working - confirmed several times.

How does it not work for You, is it being dropped somehow? Your character sheet should show your current SR.
If the spells are hitting you check in the log if it is showing a spell resist check before the spell lands on You.

So far I did not see an issue with it not working (lvl 16 EKD) though I did not have any time to test it as I just returned to playing two days ago.

[Papi J]

Magebane's spell resistance is not working - confirmed several times.

How does it not work for You, is it being dropped somehow? Your character sheet should show your current SR.
If the spells are hitting you check in the log if it is showing a spell resist check before the spell lands on You.

So far I did not see an issue with it not working (lvl 16 EKD) though I did not have any time to test it as I just returned to playing two days ago.

Well, I'm not a dev, I have no idea why it is not working. I have the feat, but no spell resistance on sheet and no spell resistance checks in combat. 19 DD on PGCC.

[miesny_jez]

My (late) feedback to the class changes:

First of all thank You for looking and working on this class as it has been left in the dust for a very long time. This will be a rather longer post so sorry for the long read, I hope it will be useful and will be considered in future iterations of EKD.

Overall feel to the class:
Significantly stronger one then it was before, the specific class feats allow You to tailor the class to Your needs though too much focus on class-level scaling or poor scaling kills a lot of feats to be an effective choice. The class is still suffering from Biowares singleplayer PVE antiquated design which blocks it from what it should be from a RP point of view on a multiplayer dynamic environment.
The tools which are available on this class have more or less a “mixed” feeling approach at the moment while still being comparatively weaker to other classes alternatives. Despite the given buffs the EKD remains in a weird place of being a supposably Defensive-focused class while having lower AC/dmg then Fighters, lower movement speed/DI/dmg and comparable DR to Barbarians, lower DI then Warlocks/Hexblades. The Knight class at the moment is superior to EKD in almost all aspects of “protecting or party savior” due to the inbuild and improved second –guard and a mixture of offensive/debilitating abilities which are affecting all party members or enemies.

Feedback to current design:

• The Defensive Stance/Iron Stance
  The new Defensive stance is certainly an improvement to the old one. The cooldown is ok, the decoupling from hard stat boosts is an improvement in itself but more importantly the ability to be in Stance and in Expertise/Power attack is what makes this a great ability at the moment, whereas this is intended or not please do not change it.
  The Temp HP bonus is a good addition and is ok but it should be more frontloaded and be more valuable for low level EKDs then for high level EKDs who will already have massive HP /DR to begin with.
  The different stances is a good idea as it enables build diversity for EKD though it is missing scaling for high-investment EKDs.
  The +1 AB/+2AC/+2 Saves is a good as class dip (3-5 EKD lvls) without upgrading to the Iron Stance. It’s in a good place generally for the minimal 3lvls dips EKDs.
  The +2AB/+4AC/+4 Saves Iron Stance is superb for low class dips but falls off for high level EKD builds. For a class that pays heavily in mobility for this signature ability it is rather weak when compared to a Barbarians rage or Knights triggered abilities.
• Safeguard 1/2/3
  Well, I think this one misses its purpose entirely.
  If the goal was for the defender to protect their teammates from harm well this makes it quite opposite making your teammates in some cases better tanks then the EKD himself through stacking dmg Immunity (barbarian/hexblades/warlocks). More valuable in such case is actually to be guarded as an EKD by another one dmg immunity class and be a dmg immunity bot for them instead..
  Those who need “saving” so mostly casters won’t feel a difference, those who don’t need saving (Dex builds, Plate users) will either not be utilizing it (as being –guarded already or have high enough AC to not be in a risk of dying within next few hits) or become better tanks then the EKD himself.
  The SR component is underwhelming and equal to a helmet.. after you burn 3 class feats on it.
  The need to cast it as a full round action is an annoyance/dangerous as most likely an EKD will be in direct enemy face so You risk flatfooting yourself for half a round (after cast) and eating 1-2 flurries from all the mobs who are already hitting You against your flatfooted behind. The other thing being duration of 30s implies using it before “it is needed” but the delay of casting as full round action may very well mean missing the time when you could save someone and 30s is not long enough as a party pre-damage response.
  EKDs at present would go either Safeguard 1 (if spare feats) or 3, though as written above it is a strange class feat, which makes specific other builds better then the EKD itself, builds which by design/RP should not be interested in becoming group protectors.
• Debilitating Strike 1/2/3
  In PVE it risks you flatfooting yourself when already surrounded by enemies, makes the EKD even more immobile then it already is, in PvP people can simply start walking away from You when they see You start casting it also can be negated totally by a Lesser Retore/Freedom /Pray. Can this be interrupted (didn’t check that)?
  Rank 1/2/3 are ok, the DC is spot-on.
• Banner1/2/3
  This one is too strong, needs nerfs.
• Mounting Resistance 1/2/3
  This is a mixed one.
  From one side it is underwhelming, but from the other side its also a tremendous (too much) QoL improvement for EKDs.
  Even at rank 3 the +9 Regen is not something spectacular but will most certainly let You keep yourself continuously topped at hp between fights which I think is not a good idea as it makes characters less dependent on healing supplies/others.
  I would suggest changing it though change it in a way that it will make the EKD harder to kill the lower his hp is instead, I like the Regen though it should be more significant to provide an actual impact.
• Magebane
  Passive SR for EKD yes please, unfortunately the scaling is too poor making this feat not a good choice.
  Target aim should be to have a SR of minimum 26 with EKD 10 when choosing this feat.
  Majority of EKD builds that will be choosing this feat will be either EKD 16, EKD 19 or EKD 20. Please note that this is a very significant class investment.
  At present 20 EKD will be equal to a racial trait and while in PVE it will have some use it will be still useless in PvP.
• Deterrence
  I would say that we have learned from Barbarian changes that tying Biteback feats to an Ability modifier doesn’t end well as it promotes illogical RP characters who are purposely built to exploit it while neglecting other mechanics aka.. CON-based Bard5/PM15/EKD10?
  The biteback on the EKD is a good idea yes, but it should be treated as a .. well Deterrence to make others not want to attack the EKD instead and tied with EKD levels not with ability modifiers. Up the damage to be it threatening, but lower duration and ensure it cannot stack with other damage shields.
  Needs also a SOLID visual to be applied to the character.
  For one feat investment I wouldn’t open this to whole party members, it’s a little too much for one feat.
• Aegis
  Right now Aegis is nice and useful.. But it is kind of bland to be honest. It is a nice amount of tmp HP but only if You go deep into EKD, on lower EKD investment there is not really a point of taking this feat.
  The duration is ok, the cooldown is ok and the fact that it is a standard action is ok as well, but it needs something more to be a viable choice for lower lvl EKDs.

Proposals/Recommendations to current design:

• General:
  Sleep in Armor, similar to Fighters.
  
  Please decide whether the requirements for the EKD feats should be ST or CON, don’t lock down feats behind CH as this limits the possible builds and promotes going into DIV classes which already are a balance problem on the server.
• Skills:
  Add Leadership and Search to the class skills.
  If possible, please change the class from 2/level skill points to 4/level skill points, with all the skills available on Arelith the 2/level classes are really getting the short end of a stick. The EKD would typically invest into Discipline and Tumble (from other class) + Spot/UMD just for necessities.
  Leadership could be a prime RP pick for a class which is designed about group defender/party support combat.
• The Stance/Iron Stance
  TmpHP bonus: 40 + 2* EKD/lvl
  
  Decouple the stances to allow to go either Normal (Offensive) OR IronStance (Defensive) shared cooldown. Add scaling to the Stance for epic level EKDs:
  (Iron Stance) additional +1 Dodge AC/ 3 lvls (10/13/16/19) , topping at total +8 AC (*read below)
  (Iron Stance) additional Dmg Immu: 5% @EKD15
  (Normal Stance) additional Dmg: +1/3 lvls (10/13/16/19), topping at total +4 dmg
  
  If carrying a shield in left hand:
  Chance per round: 5% * Shield Class (1 Small / 2 Large /3 Tower) to hit the current target with a Shield while in any Stance, hit as a melee touch attack. Successful hit applies a –4 DMG debuff to the current target for 6s.
  
  Finally add a short (3s) movement speed buff (+70%) AFTER exiting the stance. The purpose of this would be to allow the EKD players to reposition themselves to support other players in a group or provide an option for catching up kiting characters in a PvP scenario.
  
  *Note about the AC bonus:
  Although +8AC on Stance bonus looks like a lot, please remember that this is a DODGE type AC bonus, therefore capped at +20 of maximum. With a build where +6AC Tumble is included means that the character would be dodge capped passively with boots, mage armor and haste spell. As such DIV/Bard classes no longer cannot influence the AC which results in more build freedom and enable more heavy and ST-based EKD builds even without Tumble dips instead of tying the EKD into Tumble Dip or Div classes for effective AC stacking.
  The fact you can use either Iron or Normal but not both at the same time, cuts out also the risk of heavy AC Dex EKDs with great dmg.
  
  Comparators for thought:
  Barbarians – passive +4 AC @Barb20
  Fighters – passive/non dodge-capping +6 AC @Fighter25, +9AC@Fighter30
  
  *Note2 about movement speed:
  Bioware approach to the Defensive Stance implementation was an attempt to simulate a dwarven formation-based fighting groups and the “dwarven wall formation”. While it does work for a singleplayer NWN, it does not really translate well into a multiplayer server with dynamic combat and custom-AI spawns as in Arelith. You cannot play a role of a “defender” if You are unable to reach characters whom You should be defending in the first place, secondly no sane Caster/Ranged character/rogue should be sitting in the frontline from a RP point of view either. The fact that the Arelith mobs usually prioritize the last attacker or caster/ranged results very often in situations that the EKD is left in the frontline with one enemy npc while the rest of the pack simply beelines to the caster in the back, which leaves a slower moving EKD in a situation that he has to chase enemies to regain their attention.
  Chasing down while in stance simply doesn’t work as most players will instinctively run away from the incoming enemy instead of into it (to allow the EKD to regain enemy attention).
  From possible programmatically solutions to this: it is possible to apply a “control slowing zone” by an EKD in a Stance, but that would generate severe PvP implications, thus better left alone; another option is adding an auto-guard feature but that will trivialize the PVE and do nothing for party support in a PvP scenario. It is not possible in NWN to add “charges” nor would it have any RP sense for a non-magical character to be able to instantly move between distances, it is not possible also in NWN to increase available Attacks of Opportunities (to generate snap-damage). Adding an automatic AoE attack to the EKD (aka whirlwind attack) is possible but would potentially be overpowered.
  Therefore the simplest solution to this problem from programming as well as RP sense is to increase the movement speed of the character if the stance is turned off. Resolves both the issue of repositioning to assist others as well as EKDs PvP weakness of being kited to death.
• Safeguard 1/ 2/3
  Firstly make it an instant action, lower the duration to 2 rounds (12 s).
  Secondly Increase its CD to a 3 minute mark and make it apply a temporary AC bonus to party members AC bonus capped to that of the current EKDs AC, make rank 2 add saves, rank 3 elemental dmg immunity. So example would be in such case:
  Safeguard 1 – Adds an AC DEFLECT bonus to party members to match the current value of the EKD total AC, so mr Wizard gets +20 AC, mr twohand Barbarian gets +8 AC, mr dodgy Dexer gets 0 as he has already higher AC to begin with.
  Safeguard 2 – Unifies party members saves to that of the EKDs highest value so if the EKD has his highest as +30 Fort, all party members gets their saves increased to +30 Fort if they were lower then that for those 12s.
  Safeguard 3 – Adds to this +40 % elemental immunity for all party members.
• Debilitating Strike 1/2/3
  Make it an instant action please. Leaving it as a full round action kills this feat.
  Add a guaranteed (no discipline check) knockdown effect on critical hit with this attack (this is a 5% chance as no +crit modifiers apply to touch attack rolls),
• Banner 1 /2/3
  Remove the +Uni/+Skills components from it.
  The +AB/+DMG is already strong enough.
  +40% Move speed for 1 minute is too strong tone it down to 20% at max rank.
  26SR at the level you get it won’t change much, either add it at rank 1 or remove completely.
  Set the requirements to +ST or +CON for this so it is available to more class builds, don’t tie to +CH for DIV Bard/Knight EKD builds they are already strong enough. Currently this feat is reasonable only for surface races as Svirfs and Duergars come with a severe CH penalty.
• Mounting Resistance 1/2/3
  Change proposal:
  HP >90% = no Regen/Buffs
  HP 66% to 90% = Regen 1 /2 /3 +2 Dmg (Rank 3)
  HP 33% to 66% = Regen 3/6/9 +3 Dmg (Rank 3)
  HP 1% to 33% = Regen 6/9/12 +4 Dmg (Rank3)
• Magebane
  I would suggest changing this formula to:
  16 + EKD level
  
  That would end up with:
  EKD10 = 26
  EKD16 = 32
  EKD20 = 36
  
  Examples:
  Caster 30 vs 36SR (EKD20) = roll 6 to beat SR, with LBR roll 3
  Caster 27 vs 36SR (EKD20) = roll 9 to beat SR, with LBR roll 6
  Caster 26 vs 36SR (EKD20) = roll 10 to beat SR, with Mords roll 0, with LBR roll 7
  Caster 26 vs 32SR (EKD16) = roll 6 to beat SR, with LBR roll 3 needed
  Caster 26 vs 26SR (EKD10) = beats SR automatically
  
  Change of such will ensure that this talent is a viable choice even for early epic EKDs
• Deterrence
  Add a BIG VISUAL that it is active.
  Increase the cooldown to 3 minutes
  Keep the Biteback damage to the EKD only and increase it to (EKD/2)/d6 damage.
  Shorten the duration to 2 rounds, and ensure that using Deterrence disables any other preexisting damage shields like Acid Sheath etc.
• Aegis
  5min cd, duration 30s
  Allow Aegis to be chosen as a 10th level EKD feat.
  Include an interaction with other EKD chosen feats to enable Aegis to be a viable choice even for low level EKD investments:
  if EKD has Safeguard = add temp hp bonus as is and 10% dmg / elemental dmg immunity
  If EKD has Banner = enemy movespeed in banner area -10%, -2 to their dmg
  If EKD has Magebane = add temp hp bonus and spread SR to match EKD SR to party members up to 32SR max
  If EKD has Debilitating Strike = Debilitating affects all enemies in 5yards from EKD while Aegis active
  If EKD has Mounting resistance = add temp hp bonus and spread +Regen as at EKDs lowest hp band
  If EKD has Deterrence = add biteback which would be 1/3 of what EKD can make for himself ( overwrite other dmg shields).
  
  The effects are of course additive, so EKD with Safeguard and Banner while using Aegis would create both effects on party.

Other things to discuss
The EKD Stance itself is a form of simulating a battle formation of a practiced dwarven battlegroup. But a dwarven wall does not necessarily mean that characters should be tied to their place, any kind of a formation-based combat is based on the fact that the formation is mobile and thus can respond to
battlefield situation. I would expect rather that Bioware approach to this was simply lack of time or laziness on programming this and also on the fact that NWN initially was built for Single-player or limited multi-player not a large-scale server which Arelith is.
Adoption of formation-based combat is possible with the tools that are available programmatically on Arelith – by utilizing the SHAPE_CUBE area definition it would be possible to define a formation-based area triggers around the EKD character when in stance. Therefore its possible to define a dwarven line or a formation-based effects on the characters.


Thanks for Your time and thanks for Your work on programming the class.
I know from my own experience how tedious and time consuming it is.

[Gouge Away]

Banner 1 /2/3
Remove the +Uni/+Skills components from it.
The +AB/+DMG is already strong enough.
+40% Move speed for 1 minute is too strong tone it down to 20% at max rank.
26SR at the level you get it won’t change much, either add it at rank 1 or remove completely.
Set the requirements to +ST or +CON for this so it is available to more class builds, don’t tie to +CH for DIV Bard/Knight EKD builds they are already strong enough. Currently this feat is reasonable only for surface races as Svirfs and Duergars come with a severe CH penalty.

While I think most of your points are good I'd argue on Banner.

EKD is for dwarves -and- gnomes and hin now. Gnomes have strength penalties and hin and svirfs are middling at CON and -2 on STR. Banner is bad for shield dwarves, duergar and svirfs, sure, but it's something where hin and rock gnomes could excel. If divine synergy is an issue maybe there's a way to temper it. I just think there needs to be options for ALL earthkin to go down paths as it still feels much like a dwarf-based class that happens to accept two more races that (banner aside) would always have inferior builds and it's nice to have something that caters to low str, middling con defenders too.

Also remember banner plants a banner that isn't all that sturdy. The abilities are great, but a strong blow or even AOE can take it out quickly.

[Good Character]

Been toying with the class and agree with the sentiments two posts above.

1. Debilitating Strike is pointlessly bad. With it requiring a full round use and you needing to be in melee touch range and you are likely in stance, there's no way you get close to enough to possibly use it unless your opponent willing eats it.

2. Magebane is not worthy of an epic slot in its current state. It lives on the idea that you will take 20 EKD levels, which is hardly the case for most builds. Cap it at 32 but bumped the base SR or make it a regular class feat.

3. The movement speed on Banner sounds cool and thematic, but hardly makes sense in play. If you could "carry" the banner with you, it would make sense. I say totally remove the movement speed and instead decrease the cooldown to 1.5 minutes or add in an item that decreases its cooldown similar to Commanding Brigadine. It's likely a huge aspect of the build for whoever is using it, but it's on such a long cooldown given it being static.

4. Split Iron Stance and Defensive Stance or reduce the cooldown after leaving the stance by half if you have Iron Stance.

[The Magical Space Papa]

Idk but uh make like an aura helps dwd give that speed boost in fights esp in a game where speed is king. Or make Deb strike work like oath of wrath so you target something and it's slowed, I kinda want an ability thats like spirited charge +2 ab +1apr -1crit range and uh no con req for banner and I guess

[The Magical Space Papa]

I just want dwd to have some form of kill potential just so it can stand on its own against other melee classes with the respect from classes like barb and fighter or rouge without resorting in wm or a dex class

[The Magical Space Papa]

Like the power fantasy of the class of a stalwart hardy defender going toe to toe with other fighters, rouges,barbarians just feels lack luster on the fact that it has low ab and the charisma locked ability that has a small radius to move around, the 1 turn touch attack which is crucial in a fight but takes forever to cast, a bite back ability which is feat tight so practically unpopular and doesn't affect the caster and the glaring bugs shows dwd still needs more tweaking. Most importantly I'm excited for dwd to have more improvements. I really just want it to have some form of kill potential. I don't want to be another fighter wm or angry barb I want to experience the idea of a dwd that doesn't rely on wm feats to fight an enemy with the usage of its own feats rather than chugging a true strike or popping a haste wand. I want to be able to fight against a class using my banner or dstance to beat them right and proper without heavily relying on potions or wands. And I understand the class is meant for group fights but group pvp is just a lag fest and with how slow dwd can be it's just discouraging to fight in group pvp. I would like to play the class that is good on its own and great in groups rather than being good with a group thanks to certain feats I took. And rangers or archers who have distance and speed will just move around so it just makes the dwd a sitting duck. It's just frustrating tbh. I'm super hopeful for the new improvements and Im super patient with what's to come.

[Nurel]

1. Debilitating Strike is pointlessly bad. With it requiring a full round use and you needing to be in melee touch range and you are likely in stance, there's no way you get close to enough to possibly use it unless your opponent willing eats it.

Posting to second this.

Debilitating strike is a great ability on paper, but no EDs seem to take it due to how it actually works ingame. The main problem is it being a full round action.

I understand making it an instant action like spirited charge and rage will result in it becoming overpowered, but how about this: Make it into an ability which substitutes an attack, like Diarm or Knockdown, that way prople may use it and actually benefit from it. It will be powerful but not too powerful, and it will also be viable to use in pvp (now it is not, as people can just run from it)

[a shrouded figure]

I too would echo the sentiments of the previous few posts. In my experience with this class, it slightly missed the mark from being useful outside of a meme (hex pm Ed) or splash for iron stance assuming you’re not dodge capped.

The epic feats are borderline useless, to my knowledge safeguard I and II are still hit or miss on being usable, and in a world where speed is king the poor Earthkin defender is a sitting duck in all aspects.

I hope the team is able to spend some time in the future to slightly tweak this class as it has always been one of my favorites- but I would love to see it slightly streamlined to be a more cohesive prestige class. In its current state it feels a lot more like a base class. Which is an idea- make it a base class with some tweaks? Lol

[Nurel]

Well, I'm not a dev, I have no idea why it is not working. I have the feat, but no spell resistance on sheet and no spell resistance checks in combat. 19 DD on PGCC.

A bit late to the party, but I found why: You have to equip an armor for the SR to display on your sheet. Now is the SR granted by this feat low? Yes its quite low at lvl 15 ED with edrIII, merely 27SR

I am having fun on my WM EKD, its quite powerful for PVE and I am sure it can do some dmg in pvp too if you burn enough consumables. Is it "optimal"? Probably not. But still running around in semi-good AC, 19DR, evasion and decent saves is very fun

But yeah the feats are fairly insignificant, especially debilitating strike and the biteback ones. I picked Ironstance, Safeguard III and Mounting resistance I for my EKD, as I feel safeguard III can be very powerful with the right group, whereas Mounting III is just QoL

[satan]

The Class is already quite feat starved if you want to make anything out of the Damage-reduction path. So to remove two Epic-general feats is not good. The DR scaling also mean the heavy-investers in the class loose out one dmg-reduction. Now you have to invest the full twenty-levels to gain what you had at level 18 before.

I think it would be wise to add another general epic feat so that you do not get a net-loose of general epic feats in this class. Barbarian and other classes that recieved overhauls did not get their new powers at the "cost" of their old general feats.
We should also remember that due to being a prestige class it is harder to make "dips" such as into rogue to recieve UMD and Thumble with this class. If you want to max out your DR you have to do so at the expense of loosing out AB pree epic since you can only take 10 levels of the class on pree epic.

A possible fix to this can be to change some of the keystone things of the class to level 16 instead of level 18 and 20. Something to consider. In the past, 18 levels was the highest you ever needed for maxed Dr and now it is 20. Twenty leave no room for taking thumble or other things at epic level. Not at all.

Mainwhile many other classes has gained in this aspect that is the very core of the class (Ability to soak up damage). Barbarians make staggering tanks in this aspect. As fighters might do if the ability to reach 20 % dmg immunity through fighter-only feats is implemented. That will stack with half-orc/orog/ogre racials and armor for ability to reach up to 35% dmg immunity and 9 DR. Feels like a too step away from the main theme of the class. Perhaps some of those class specific feats should boost up DR or DMG immunity for yourself too?

Another possible fix is to make it so that level 20 actually give something - really good. Similar to how 20 levels of CoT give you that last sweet AB and Divine Dmg.

I suggest, that instead of gaining 2 DR on reaching Epic Dwarven Defender you should gain 3 DR.
This mean you retain the old DR that you recieved as a defender at level 18. While it still let those of lower investment, have a more balanced scaling that let you enjoy DR throughout leveling up and not just in the very end.

You could argue you only loose one feat as you gain armor-skin. Though this do lower the ability to customize your build as it shoe-horn you into armor skin when you in the past instead had two feats to choose between what you wanted.

Lose. The word you are looking fore is lose.

Loose is the opposite of tight.

[Red_Wharf]

Lose. The word you are looking fore is lose.

Loose is the opposite of tight.

For. The word you are looking for is "for".

Fore has several meanings: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dic ... glish/fore

[Duchess Says]

Lose. The word you are looking fore is lose.

Loose is the opposite of tight.

You're really calling out spelling in a six month old post?

[a shrouded figure]

Bumping this thread - hoping that EKD sees a little extra re-work before being forgotten again. I really appreciate all the work that went into adjusting the class the first time- but it’s still in a very weird spot.

[Svrtr]

Didn't want to make a whole new thread for this so bumping this old one.

I just specifically wanted to inquire into one thing, that being if DD as a class could get leadership as a skill? Between their nature as defenders of holds and having a banner ability to lead kin and allies into battle, it seems odd that DD doesn't get leadership as a class skill. Think it would be fitting and not groundbreaking