Shadow Wharftown Design

[Diegovog]

I'm going to be called a heretic for proposing a change on the original Wharftown's design but... If the town is going to be a stage to conflicts I think the boat should be moved one area away than what it is now.

The reason for this being that the transition on the boat is done one by one and therefore a much more mechanical restraint that makes the first people landing a huge target. Not only that but most people coming from the other side of the boat are on a different server.
In order to give a chance to anyone assaulting town, the boat should be one area away, on the opposite exit of the portal, giving plenty of opportunity for an army to group up and prepare.

This was clear on yesterday's conflict. Both sides that used the boat stood no chance. And yes, I'm aware that people don't -have- to use the boat, they can use the portal or walk a huuuuge path around. I'm just offering reasonable counterplay in a design level.

[DangerDolphin]

I'm a little confused why you're asking for this when you know there's a portal there.

I get that the server change is an OOC thing and annoying, but amphibious landings are historically very challenging for the attacker, and honestly if there was PvP going on around the boatman I'd think he would just sail away and not be taking people back and forth as it is. I also have to wonder if he'd agree to land an 'invasion force' of adventurers.

Can you clarify further as to why the portal wasn't used?

[msheeler]

I think the point was that you have groups of people hanging out or camping Shadow Wharftown and mobbing anyone who needs to use the boat to arrive there, they show up and will have a round or maybe two if they have a higher end PC that can load the area quickly before they are simply mobbed by a large group.

The way this played out over the weekend it was groups of 20-30 people who were split up and sitting at the boat and portal and simply destroying who ever ported into the area.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

There used to be complaints about this similarly surrounding drow/UDers and the Mythal. Way back in the day.

Aren't there like two other ways of getting into Shadow Wharftown?

Isn't this all a non-issue?

[DangerDolphin]

If it wasn't a planned 'invasion force' then I do understand. It is rather jarring how the shadow plane is not all on one server.

[Flower Power]

Last I'd heard, deliberately and knowingly abusing transitions to gain an unfair mechanical advantage in PvP was considered an exploit and a very obvious violation of the "Be Nice" rule.

[AstralUniverse]

Last I'd heard, deliberately and knowingly abusing transitions to gain an unfair mechanical advantage in PvP was considered an exploit and a very obvious violation of the "Be Nice" rule.

Yeah. This.

Which makes me really wonder. Being able to gank people at that dock transition isnt exactly a new feature and the rules werent changed in that regard so... what's changed?

[Drowboy]

Player behavior and a willingness or ability to punish bad actors?

[Ninjimmy]

You could also use the Shadow Door - its just unfortunate that there's three ways into Shadow Wharftown and pretty much all of them require a server transition that gives a defending force plenty of time to attack as they spawn if we skirt over Be Nice

[Skarain]

On the original topic, if the boat was moved an area or two away, what would that mean for lower level visitors? Not everyone can handle the spawns south of Shadow Wharf by the nearest portal.

Also, what if the ferrier had a few bodyguard NPCs with the dialogue on click along the lines of "watch it. No violence near the ferrier, or you will have to deal with me"? A little like Lauric has his dudes when docked to real Wharftown. Would it undermine the lawless feel of Shadow Wharftown too much?

Or what if, when you transition from Shadow Cordor ferry, you get the option to take with you all the people in your party. That way, you can prepare in Shadow Cordor and all emerge as one big pre-warded blob? Admitted, what would be the ferriers stance be of transporting such a war party in one go?

[Ninjimmy]

That way, you can prepare in Shadow Cordor and all emerge as one big pre-warded blob? Admitted, what would be the ferriers stance be of transporting such a war party in one go?

Probably ask for payment upfront?

[Skarain]

Fair. I am though wondering. From a design perspective, does a place 'have' to be convenient to lay siege upon? Walls are built around cities to protect them. If you are already going through the effort of gathering a war party, what prevents you from doing that in Shadow Cordor and make the treck by land?

There are two roads that lead to Whatftown, neither of which are convenient, easy or mob-free, but we -are- speaking of the Shadow Plane, an environment that is hostile by its very nature. The ferry is the easy route in, but also a defendable location. There is a reason why landing operations in history have been messy scenarios.

I am unsure if it is possible by script or mechanical limitations, but what if the Ferrier could be bribed in Shadow Wharftown for.... 20k to not allow people to land (until next reset), and instead dump them off to a nearby area outside the city?

That way, during conflict an entrance could be "moved" temporarily further away without the need to area-design an entirely new docks a transition away and implement the in-game lore reasons why the ferry just does not dock to a coastal city.

[BHR55]

Here is my 2 cents. The small size of the city lends itself to an initiation of conflict close to or on top of the Ferry depending on where persons are located in relation to the actual docks. There is not that much space between the major guild with it's narrow docks within view of of the ferry, as well as the shops and living quarters not being far off. One houses back yard can literally see the dock within spitting distance. When people come off the boat and ! with large groups someone's summons are bound to do something stupid, someone else is bound to cast, and despite efforts to pull back and talk. Once a fight has started it's difficult to just cease without giving up momentum, and just talk it out.

Secondly the idea that in theory the city has two paths of entry doesn't really matter, as only one is really accessible. The other side of town requires a pretty major detour though numerous hostile mobs that can easily take 20 minutes to get around depending on where you start. So the multiple paths of entry is relatively moot when only two are practical, one has you coming blind across a server transition into who knows what, and the other can just as easily be watched or camped being a portal in a literal valley on the low ground. Both are practically within the town itself as well unlike Cordor and the other settlements who's portals in have been moved pretty well outside their walls, the one in Cordor's outer limits is notably smoldering form it's destruction following it's use in attacks in the past. These sort of modes of entry have been removed because of these kinds of fights well in Arelith's past(if my memory serves). Similarly if someone was using the ferry from the crows nest to siege Cordor by ship I would fully expect defenders to bottleneck the assault and try to contain it at those docks, it just so happens Cordor is massive and spans more than a single area with far more points of interest.

The fights over the weekend could have been better, but it happens not ever pvp will be beautiful and well planned especially with more people involved and it really depends on both sides not being "!" hostile or casting spells or doing anything overt too soon. I don't think anyone intentionally tried to break any sort of rules there.

Having said that I don't think moving the ship or having Shadovar on the same server as the rest of the Plane would really make much difference, Sibayad has a similar setup and similar mass pvp happens there as well in the square. In my opinion the larger issue that both Wharftown and Sibayad can be "controlled" by whomever shows up first keen on mass armed conflict(the conflict itself not necessarily being a bad thing). Even Sencliff's docks have this to some degree, though at least since you disembark one at a time. And those that wish to attack or harry the people living in said settlement are often not the same people that live there but passing through, shopping, or doing writs with no vested interest in keeping fighting outside the walls.

Unlike Cordor, Guld, Bendir or any "settlement" proper there is nothing in the rules that suggests mass PvP(5+ ppl going after a similar number) in the middle of town there is not a good idea, or requires DMs or some forward planning to "Siege" the place or to just not do it on a whim. Which ends up with these sorts of areas that are not settlements being easy battlegrounds since Andunor and the rest require time and forethought to "raid" with more than a small hit squad. Sib and Sencliff have been party to the same sorts of things from time to time, it's far from an exclusive event. Being as the NPCs have regularly demonstrated they don't particularly care about this kind of thing happening I don't see moving this or that around making any real difference. Nor do I think just making a new settlement(s) would make any difference besides mechanically alienating one group or another that RP in these "no mans land" towns.

[Bunnysmack]

Honestly, the comparison about this being akin to attacking Cordor via the Crows Nest ferry is pretty spot on: It's a bad strategy. IIRC, there are four entrances to Shadow Wharftown; only two of which involve a server transition. Though I wasn't present for the Wharftown pvp this weekend, it sounds like the attacking force made the wrong choice, and not that the design of the area somehow made the conflict "unfair." As such, I really don't think a change in design is needed.

I know for a fact there are a number of C&P portals in the wilderness not overly far from Shadow Wharftown. Yes, the wildlife out there is hostile, but it isn't anything the frontline troops of an invading level 30 raid group would have even mild trouble mowing through to clear a path for the rest of the group. There were options available to the attacking force, they didn't have to pick the most expedient+most risky choice.

I don't think making Shadow Wharftown more raid-friendly is at all a good design choice. It, along with Sib, is already one of the most populace locales for people living outside of settlement safeguards, which means that if PCs living there want to defend their turf, they aren't getting any DM referees restricting raid numbers and they aren't getting beefy NPCs that DMs will control to help the local PC's repel the attackers.

I also want to add that I'm not currently playing a PC that lives in Shadow Wharftown or has any stake in its defense, but I do see a need to play devil's advocate on this debate.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Totally random, but to clarify -

I thought "anywhere where there are neutral NPCs" warrants some level of DM notice or oversight when it comes to PvP?

You can't attack inside Shadow Wharftown because there are whatever. You can't attack inside Sibayad because there are NPCs.

Is this not the case?

If so, it is really unclear, because I've been thinking places like the Radiant Heart, the Monastery, etc., are "no go" zones for group PvP because of the presence of NPCs, and this had nothing to do with the settlement system and settlement mechancis.

[andthenthatwasthat]

I thought "anywhere where there are neutral NPCs" warrants some level of DM notice or oversight when it comes to PvP?

No, and clear example is the Hub in Andunor. It is best for current DMs to clarify, but my understanding is that DM oversight is required for attacks against settlements. Otherwise, player discretion is required when deciding if surrounding NPC's would react to the PvP, and it is best to avoid it in areas where they certainly would (e.g., think of a public brawl in front of the Cordor palace).

[Bunnysmack]

I think in that case, it largely depends on whether or not the particular NPCs of the locale would step in on a fight between PCs. For the Radiant Heart chapterhouse, definitely. They are the crusaders of truth and justice. For the shades of Shadow Wharftown? Highly unlikely, so long as the fight doesn't interrupt their daily routine. Why should they care what the PCs are doing to one another, regardless of which banner they fight for?

[Drowboy]

I thought "anywhere where there are neutral NPCs" warrants some level of DM notice or oversight when it comes to PvP?

No, and clear example is the Hub in Andunor. It is best for current DMs to clarify, but my understanding is that DM oversight is required for attacks against settlements. Otherwise, player discretion is required when deciding if surrounding NPC's would react to the PvP, and it is best to avoid it in areas where they certainly would (e.g., think of a public brawl in front of the Cordor palace).

Well this'll require a dm response them because over the summer, while there was pvp happening in and around the Hub, a dm pc posted a message everywhere basically saying quit it.

[Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia]

This really isn't the issue people make it out to be, the reality is much simpler. (Incidentally, it wouldn't be a subject for discussion at all if Shadow Wharftown wasn't a focal point lately between two mutually-hostile blocs).

It's a pretty basic design item for 'flashpoint' kind of areas where conflicting forces are going to congregate and inevitably meet: don't have a server transition for a direct entrance. I mean there's still a bit more to consider than that alone but it sums it up.

So long as it doesn't get in the way of what's going on plot-wise there, I'll factor this into account for any adjustments upcoming. Some good points are raised here but I'd say it's a simple structural change to make the region play better.

[andthenthatwasthat]

I thought "anywhere where there are neutral NPCs" warrants some level of DM notice or oversight when it comes to PvP?

No, and clear example is the Hub in Andunor. It is best for current DMs to clarify, but my understanding is that DM oversight is required for attacks against settlements. Otherwise, player discretion is required when deciding if surrounding NPC's would react to the PvP, and it is best to avoid it in areas where they certainly would (e.g., think of a public brawl in front of the Cordor palace).

Well this'll require a dm response them because over the summer, while there was pvp happening in and around the Hub, a dm pc posted a message everywhere basically saying quit it.

Maybe the players overdid the PvP in the Hub? Still, always best to hear it from the DMs.

[Ork]

Can you have personal conflict PvP in the hub? Sure. Can you have open civil war PvP in the hub without a DM? I wouldn't chance it.

[andthenthatwasthat]

Can you have personal conflict PvP in the hub? Sure. Can you have open civil war PvP in the hub without a DM? I wouldn't chance it.

That is what I was getting at, too.