Cleric and Domain Spells

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I think the unfortunate truth of clerics selecting domains is that there are some that are just too good.

Trickery, Death, Travel, War, Protection, and maybe Plant/Animal, are like top-tier. What they offer to basically every cleric build is incredible. Haste and Improved Invisibility are like some of the best spells in the entire game, so it is very hard to basically say "pass." On top of the fact some Domain abilities are god awful, like all those things that let you "turn" elementals. Until "turning" as a mechanic can actually be "good", then you just stay away from these.

But I do think there could be ways of making other Domains more attractive.

Here are some ideas.

1. Add Improved Invisibility (or Invisibility) and Haste to the Cleric spell list, but add them as 7th level spells.
This would force clerics to pick Haste/Improved Invisibility over Word of Faith, Greater Restoration, and Regenerate, all of which are key components in a cleric's spellbook.

Travel and Trickery now are simply allowing clerics to cast these spells at lower spell slots, and to cast more of them. (maybe this just buffs Travel and Trickery more, idk. these are just ideas)

2. Every Cleric who selects one of those Domains that allows you to Turn an additional creature, also grants you maybe:
> a bonus metamagic feat at 1st level, or,
> a bonus language?
> add more spells? For example, Water domain could easily add "Drown" now, Earth domain could add Greater Stoneskin, etc.

3. Change how domain special abilities key off of Charisma.
Cha-based clerics can be really strong, but are significantly harder to level, gear, and basically play - because you're trying to get your Cha to a respectably level.
I can see how changing this would impact healer clerics the most, because of the synergy with Protection domain, but -

What about giving them Cooldowns instead that key off Charisma, instead of them being once per day abilities?

There's a big disparity in how the Protection mini-GSanc's duration equation = 1 round per CL + Cha mod. But Strength's STR-buff? 5 rounds + Cha modifier.

If there was a way to bring all of the domain special abilities more in line, to make them all useable and more equivalent in power, that'd be great.

4. Give neutral-clerics a +1 bonus learnable language (I just feel bad for them).

5. Double the Piety Upticks for all Clerics, and have all Domain Abilities cost like 10 Piety, and put them on Cooldown.

these are just ideas, and I know I know "nerf clerics" - and clerics are still strong. I just feel like they need a fresh coat of paint, even though we did just get the Healer path a few years back.

Am I off base? Are clerics "fine"? Are piety mechanics still "bad"? Is touching Domains too much work?

[Ork]

Clerics do need a fresh coat of paint. While they remain strong, the current mechanics favor builds with small action economies - clerics have a buff dance that could last a significant amount of time to be "combat ready".

[AstralUniverse]

I do agree with most of the OP. Most of the cleric's abilities function weird and scale off weird things. It can be a nice design but not in this server for whatever reason (gear. max lvl 30. god knows). The problem is that cleric in general is just a very strong class. Very, very strong class. So implementing the suggestions in the op (which all make perfect sense to me) is borderline impossible balance-wise, and maybe even impossible code-wise but I'm not a programmer. Battle-clerics are still very very strong overall, with their weaknesses and long up-time in consideration. I really wish there will be a way eventually to do something with the useless domains or semi-useful domains who just get outshined by travel, trickery, death, healing, protection, plant and war, to allow more attunement between the character concept and the domains chosen.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

Not really on topic, but I am of the mind that save for the healer path clerics are not the beast on arelith that they have traditionally been on other servers. It's not so much that they lost something, but rather all the boosts to classes like paladin and ranger, in particular spells that stack with a enchanted weapon, have left it lagging behind in the arms race. Even in PvE, where being able to fight with a summon next to you is a huge boon, the minute your cleric teams up with a druid its going to feel insignificant.

As for the original point, yeah...domains could do for a bit of rebalancing. I would love to see new domains now that we use haks, but it seems rather pointless to try and add stuff when you already have a handful of domains that are never taken because the others are just that good.

[Gouge Away]

Healer clerics can be total beasts if built for it and more importantly they make everyone else beasts. Druids may outclass them with summons but druids outclass everyone, and moreover, imagine what that druid can do with healer buffs and overheal on its monolith form and army.

"Battleclerics" feel very 2007, but I wouldn't mess with the healer path, it's just the right amount of good and deceptively complex. Probably takes more actual strategy and thinking to play than almost anything else and that's a good thing.

[Exordius]

A large cleric and domain overhaul is coming from what im told but... probably not for another year and thats at the earliest.

[DangerDolphin]

Clerics have the issue of being powerful while also having low QOL. Stuff like the bad domains, 2 skill points per level, etc

IMO they need a nerf to free up space, followed by a bunch of small buffs and QOL features.

Personally I'd like to make them a medium armor class as they are in later DnD editions, but given how Arelith's medium armors are so powerful, so not sure that would have much impact.

Another possibility as touched on by the OP would be making them more dependent on their CHA/WIS stats.

Healer path is very cool, but I do wonder if it should just be part of the healing domain or a PrC (With the same benefits and drawbacks). Paths are kind of a relic from when we couldn't do haks.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

I often think the "battlecleric" is a good barometer for measuring other server mechanics. It has to deal with a multi-stat dependency; doesn't care a lot about gear or items; has a significant wind-up time; is susceptible to dispels; and has average kill pressure (outside of death domain).

Battleclerics, a few years back, got a "B/B+" rating from Peppermint. Pretty middle of the road, mechanically.

Are battleclerics still middle of the road? I'd say largely so. But a lot of their mechanics feel antiquated. The prevalence of heal potions, the changes to UMD/Lore, more +4 weaponry, etc. has really shifted server mechanics.

I'm completely biased because I play a cleric, but I think it rivals bard the most in terms of classes that haven't been tampered with a lot. And a bard is in a completely different realm.

I'd have no problem with making battleclerics more CHA-dependent, if there were better ways of clerics giving themselves damage - it's why STR is so necessary.

The biggest change to battleclerics was probably the spear changes, giving non-martial battleclerics access to spears and letting them go 27/3 with bard.

I don't know how you'd go about nerfing clerics - I guess you'd probably go after their core kit, but again, it'd be hard to tweak a lot without making them weaker than Favoured Souls.

My dream is to making turning way stronger, and really fill the classic niche of clerics being the best anti-undead/controllers of undead. But that doesn't seem to be possible, I think.

[AstralUniverse]

I like that we quickly came to the conclusion that clerics do need a nerf before they can be molded into something more Arelith friendly.

I'd have no problem with making battleclerics more CHA-dependent, if there were better ways of clerics giving themselves damage - it's why STR is so necessary.

I think about it longer... when it comes to cha scaling... I dont think we should touch a lot more than just making things like war/strength domains cooldown based. Everything else will kind of take care of itself. These abilities already give a lot of ab/damage or basically max out your str, and charisma is already crucial for their functionality in a... cool way, I think. Unlike in Arelith, in other servers (at least old once pre-EE) where these abilities were frickin' bonkers the main difference is you can rest immediately and brainlessly after using them and buff again, with that vanilla cloak with Haste property or other means of perma-haste on most servers.

Maybe I'm biased too.

I dont play clerics and I dont like fighting them either. I dont. at all. In my most recent attempt to play a cleric I played a wis based zen archer (not a healer, can use plate and sword-board with 14 base str) and I started a ranger dip at lvl 19. For the most part, the summon soloed and the avatar was an extra damage from the side and it was mostly boring, and in tough fights, I used a bow with all buffs up and it felt really good, except I could only do that to full potential 4-5 times per rest. Eventually I shelved the character in their early epics because not actually relaying on my full potential character in pve (because I wouldnt go to a place where I'd die if dont kill things fast enough with all my buffs, since I can only use them on 4-5 spawns) was no where near fun.

Cleric is a hard role to RP. Maybe the hardest and most lore-requiring to make it work and stick and that's also a drawback at least for me. Like... a bard can be a lore-master and be fluent with FR history but they dont have to be. A cleric needs to be very knowledgeable with at least a large number of the gods table and their history. Otherwise they will look very silly when they preach or do anything clerical and meet a philosophical or historical argument in an answer.

Will someone please finally put Aura vs Alignment the 8th spell with damage shield property in the breachlist.

[Cybren]

I am generally of the opinion that ‘choices’ that are functionally obligatory, like say, the travel domain, aren’t very interesting, and function primarily as a newbie trap. Just give clerics haste as a 4th/5th level spell or something

[DangerDolphin]

My dream is to making turning way stronger, and really fill the classic niche of clerics being the best anti-undead/controllers of undead. But that doesn't seem to be possible, I think.

Does Sun Domain not do that? I've not tried one with it on Arelith

[Ork]

My dream is to making turning way stronger, and really fill the classic niche of clerics being the best anti-undead/controllers of undead. But that doesn't seem to be possible, I think.

Does Sun Domain not do that? I've not tried one with it on Arelith

1d4 hit dice stronger is a sick joke. Turning is one of the most convoluted mechanics in nwn when it really doesn't have to be.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Turning in a non-bo. There are a handful of instances where turning undead can be beneficial, but making undead "flee" via fear isn't actually always that good - because they run away from your melee'ers and can split the party and just make things actually more chaotic.

Planar Turning is maybe the only marginally useful thing. But a lot of outsiders have "Turn Resistance" which just makes the already uphill battle, harder.

Turning is almost entirely based off of Charisma, which really means, to be an "effective turner", you are 100% playing a WIS/CHA cleric. Even then.

In DnD, turning/channeling/etc. is a cornerstone of the class. The equivalent of a druid shapeshift. A lot of abilities subsequently are about modifying turning -

Turning is neither effective or fun on Arelith. There's ton of obtuse mechanics involved, and it can be super opaque. The biggest frustration is not knowing whether a turn undead is actually going to work - so you've just wasted a whole round looking pretty.

[Flower Power]

Turning is silly and rarely worth doing; Clerics (and maybe even paladins and FE Undead Rangers) have kind of lost their title of "best undead killers around" to Rogues - those Exploding Holy Water Flasks are really, really nice. Rogues and DEX builds just got a little too overtooled.

I'd personally like to see Turning (and all turning-related feats, like Divine Might/Shield) swapped over to a 1-2 minute cooldown, with the turning mechanics somehow streamlined a little bit in determining what targets are affected, and the effects swapped over to something along the lines of keeping the instadeath - but for creatures that don't just automatically pop having a 10 + CL1/2 + CHA mod save vs. having a Curse-song equivalent debuff applied to them (with a much smaller debuff applied on a successful save.)

The Fear effect is more annoying than helpful, but an AoE debuff like that to Undead/Outsiders would make it almost always worth using, even for Clerics who don't stack CHA to boost the DC.

[andthenthatwasthat]

I'd like to see domains mechanically enforced based on the deity the cleric serves. But luckily this would require work, maybe not even possible (thinking about deity change), and i have no say in what gets implemented.

[Ork]

Use to be soft-enforced. Saw a lot of clerics of Akadi & Shaundakul.

[Gouge Away]

I'd like to see domains mechanically enforced based on the deity the cleric serves. But luckily this would require work, maybe not even possible (thinking about deity change), and i have no say in what gets implemented.

It's a noble ideal but nobody and I mean nobody would take deities with two domains that were duds. They'd tailor their deities to whatever is close enough to their concept so some gods would have tons of clerics and some none at all. I used to play on Forgotten Realms Cormyr where this is strictly enforced and that is exactly what you saw.

At least this way you get some range. Aspects kind of serve to mitigate this though that gets gamed as well.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

Enforceable domains would only be good if we a) had all the Forgotten Realms domains and b) all of the domains were equally good/fun.

[Bunnysmack]

Enforceable domains would only be good if we a) had all the Forgotten Realms domains and b) all of the domains were equally good/fun.

+1. This is the main issue, in a nutshell. It's why the piety system needed an overhaul, because people's character concept were being strongly hamstrung by lack of certain forms of piety gain, or a strong need for certain forms of godsaves. The end result was a lot of people were doing RP backflips to justify taking deities that made very little sense to the character concept, which is a huge issue on an FR roleplay server, cause one's faith in this setting is often a really important part of their character concept as a whole (not always, but pretty often it's a substantial factor).

Flexible domains help make up for the mechanical limitation of not currently having a full range of equally effective domain options to fit various flavors of cleric character concepts. As it stands, there are about 4 or 5 different domains that are ridiculously powerful in comparison to the other 15-16 options. It isn't an ideal solution, but it's the one that will least result in clerics coming up with extremely unrealistic lore explanations for why they picked a deity that fails to reflect almost any of their own personal values (And picking that deity because it was the only way they felt they could keep up with their peers).

[andthenthatwasthat]

Just going to agree with the three posts above. That is why my "wish" is not practical.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Why were sun spells nerfed on arelith? Like why not kill pc vampire, why capped damage, etc?

[AstralUniverse]

Clerics, for the majority of Arelith's history, have been deserving of every possible nerf they received and the meme "but how does this nerf clerics" isnt that far gone. They are just.. complicated to play, or just niche role in a party. That, I think, is why many things which may seem weird to nerf now, were nerfed in the past.