Terrifying Rage is overtuned

[Dr. B]

I've been on a hiatus from Arelith for a while now. Today I was on PGCC and several people were running Barbarians that were using this feat. Tl;dr: this feat is overtuned and needs a modest nerf.

Right off the bat people will argue that the feat can be countered (1) by a clarity potion (to resist the stun component) and (2) by a successful will save (to resist the fear component, which does not respect clarity).

However, a feat can be counterable and still be overtuned. If they do not have clarity or fail the will save, then the stun effect completely locks the affected character in place and effectively ends the fight if they cannot pray. It's a very high payoff for a very low-effort gambit. Spellcasters can achieve comparable effects by casting spells that can be disrupted and consume finite spell slots. Terrifying rage, on the other hand, is immune to disruption, and the barbarian just has to stand next to you in order to use it. The fact that the spell is a long-lasting aura allows them to try again if you fail the save. It also protects the Barbarian from attackers or spells that require the caster to touch them. The fear effect, meanwhile, doesn't respect clarity, which gives barbarians an inherent advantage over non-divine, mundane melee builds.

So my suggestion is to (1) get rid of the stun effect and (2) make fear effect aura respect clarity. The stun effect just seems like too much given the DPS Barbarian builds can get, and the clarity immunity makes the ability very difficult to counter. I do not think this would result in Barbarians being suddenly underpowered. Clarity has a cooldown timer, and with their considerable HP and DR, a strategic Barbarian can outlast an opponent's clarity potion until it wears off, then trap them in the fear aura.

I know that the focus lately is on dex builds and how they need to be nerfed, still, I don't think that justifies giving out low-effort, high-reward boons to strength builds like an aura that auto-stuns people. This makes me recall the days of Barbarian "biteback" damage, which was overgenerous in similar ways.

[Arigard]

Sorry can't agree. There's plenty of counters, you have to pack out gear and barbarian levels to get the will save anywhere near decent. You can pray out of it, you can get very high will saves, use clarity, use mind black scrolls. It's an epic feat, the stun lasts for half a round. We also live on a server where overwhelmingly dex is the meta, AC is ballooning out of proportion (most barbs can't even hit monks, or high ac builds sitting in I.E who can do so without problem) and now timestop is returning to nuke levels. Barbarians also usually have zero AC and so are overwhelming easily to hit and damage, so are very vulnerable to any kind of summons, of which 50% of the server have. Barbarians are also very vulnerable to a whole host of will based spells that basically just stop the fight.

Terry Rage is one of the staple abilities of Barbarians that allow them to actually be viable in PvP, especially in the days of the dex meta. Plus, we play in a server where epic dodge exists that on a well built dex build requires a double 20 roll in every round just to allow someone to hit. Epic Dodge is leagues ahead of any epic feat a strength based build can take.

I would also not judge IG balance based solely on the PGCC where many consumables do not exist, the majority of people don't bother to actually do their gear properly & a lot of people are just testing out build ideas that are not necessarily well developed.

[helitron]

On top of all these DEX builds and Recent TS changes that can wreck barbarians if played right, there are tons of builds out there with incredible saves due to divine dip. Consider that it’s not easy to push the fear DC, which requires a lot investment into gear with intimidate.

Also see this rejected suggestion.
viewtopic.php?f=26&t=30300

[Red_Wharf]

The fact that the spell is a long-lasting aura allows them to try again if you fail the save.

Used to be possible to wiggle your character and their fear aura around and so force your opponent to eventually fail the save, but that's not a thing anymore. Although I have to say that sometimes your opponent does roll for another save, but I find it very unpredictable. It feels as if there's some hidden cooldown to it but I have never seen it happening in PvP before, only a few times in PvE.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Yeah, I don't see need for the, definitely not that heavy of a nerf, and I would probably just never waste the items skill slots or skill points or epic feat if it got nerfed. It is a solid feature for barbarians.

[Kalopsia]

Raising the DC to functional/effective levels requires a lot of Intimidate items. While playing and fully gearing a Barbarian with the feat, I've noticed that in addition to the skill point tax, this results in a fairly big drop in terms of saves and Discipline (all craftable high Intimidate items lack Discipline, for example), making hard 5% rolls almost mandatory and ESF: Discipline a worthwhile feat to consider. Gearing for detect skills will also be significantly more difficult.

Meanwhile there's a good number of Paladins with fear immunity or CoT builds with high saves out there. Mind wards are available too, reducing the effect to a minor AB/saves reduction. As mentioned above, the aura also has a hidden two or three round cooldown on the save, so it's impossible to trigger the fear check repeatedly.

All in all, I am quite convinced that the feat is in a good spot right now :)

[Dr. B]

Okay, but the replies I'm seeing are primarily "play a divine and/or dex build", which happen to be the builds that a lot of people think are overplayed or overtuned in some respect. That to me suggests the ability is imbalanced.

[AstralUniverse]

Its just that high ac builds are generally good against barbarians. Most dex divines now have other weaknesses (timestop). There has always been some degree of rock paper scissors in this game right? So barbarians are weak to high ac and e-dodgers etc. it doesnt mean the feat is imbalanced imo.

[Arigard]

Barbarians are weak to:

High AC/EDodge - Keep in mind you can fight a Barbarian in Improved expertise no problem.
HIPS/Sneak Attack
Summons (Due to low AC)
Mind spells (Enchantment/Illusion)
Reflex spells (Evocation)
Archers
Abilities like Shadow Daze
Unblockable Damage like Divine Wrath.

The above list is pretty much 75% of the server currently. I think they deserve some half decent epic abilities.

[Dr. B]

After fighting them on my CoT/divine dip I'm inclined to soften my criticisms a bit.

[Might-N-Magic]

You get a savings throw, you can pray out of it, and you can be immune to it... what more do you want?

More appropriately, on what grounds can you legit sue for more to begin with? Mind-boggling.

[Lexx]

Some things hard counter barb that are very common. Let them have what they have or you'll see even less of them played.

[Dr. B]

what more do you want?

You to be able to read, specifically my last post.

[Basementfellow]

dirty fighting is overtuned

[hmm]

Replying to Original poster's comment "Barbarians Are Ov‎erpowered"

if the other player used the same class as you, they'd still end up on
top because they try to become better, instead of nerf everything.

The key is to make a good warrior if you want to RP a good warrior.
_

[Dr. B]

Yeah, you're right. I wrote the original post because I'm a terrible RPer.

Lock this, please.