Quartertheft

[Zavandar]

I believe the notion should be scrapped entirely

A fully upgraded quarter shouldn't be something you can break into

And if people want to enable thief roleplay, they can lower their protection and keep the proverbial (and literal) door cracked

[Security_Blanket]

Personally, I'd like thief RP to be restricted to the professional thieves. Meaning you had to make some severe sacrifices to be such an excellent pickpocket, con-man, break-in artist. To me at least, there is a pretty big difference between the rogue that can delve in dungeons without being spotted and the city-dwelling thief. The city-dweller has little need to hide from monsters as much as the city guard, they'll be entirely out of their comfort zone if they're faced with a group of orcs. But can show their versatility through their craft. Ultimately, this discussion isn't about the people that are good at "thief RP" but the people that aren't. As long as something can be exploited, it will be.

I think it's crazy that the server has gone as long as it has without codifying less abstract rules for theft to match the ones for PvP. The notion that you need to interact with someone to administer the minor setback of a small XP loss that is death, but not to steal millions of GP worth of stuff in a single stack or literally irreplaceable fixtures is incredibly alien to me.

+1

[TooManyPotatoes]

When someone pvps me i can be fairly certain our playtimes overlap to some degree - else it wouldnt have happened in the first place. This increases the likelihood of an interaction and story developing. I recall an assassin being sent after my character but it never went anywhere because we didnt overlap in our playtimes. It just fizzled out and i thought that was a real shame.

Lets say im only online for 4 hours a day. Its likely my playtime doesnt overlap with the majority of the playerbase and thus we cant interact with one another. If a thief pickpockets me, at least i was online for the interaction even if i never saw them. Theres at least a chance of narrowing it down. Heck at least we might see each other again! They can see the real consequences of their theft in person even if i never catch them. I can be paranoid of everyone around me! That is interesting!

Quartertheft bucks this as the quarter is available 24/7 to be broken and its more than likely the thief and i will never cross paths.

With quarter theft is that its fairly likely our playtimes dont overlap. A thief is more likely to be successful when the victim is not online which actually insentivises going after those who arent online when you are. For this reason most thief rp borne of quarter theft is most often a non starter.

It is amongst the worst possible starters for rp for this reason. It is literally impossible for the majority of thefts to lead anywhere.

At a minimum the requirement for quarter theft should be that you have interacted with the potential victim beforehand within the last 24 hours. Otherwise how do you expect your mythical quarter break rp to even happen?

[DM Rex]

Frustration at loss is understandable. But please refrain from directly insulting other play styles and their players in this forum.
Thank you.

[Irongron]

Whether they are lost by theft, accident or just misplaced I'd advise anyone making a custom fixture to save the name and description, or to screenshot it if you haven't made it yourself.

Very few fixtures need to be irreplaceable.

With theft I personally find our existing rule enough (aside from the problem with stacks). To read threads like this one might think players are constantly losing items, but thefts remain comparatively rare.

It also may not be a popular opinion, but I don't feel theft needs to be fun for both sides, or that even needs to be counter play afterwards. I've a great deal of respect for those that leave clues or interact after such a robbery, and hope more do it. That being said I will definitely not lock down player quarters, if anything I would prefer to facilitate more such crime.

The notion of separating storage from quarters is one I would never consider, though it is an interesting proposal, and one I believe would be suited to a more action based server. It would open up new player hubs where the storage was located, but quickly render almost all quarters and guildhouses (plus many shops) almost entirely redundant. The storage aspect of all of these is a key feature of their use, and value. Removing it would require a virtual rebuild of the server, and one that I believe would have catastrophic consequences for Arelith - the value and resulting competition we place on such assets is key to sustaining ambition, and thus satisfaction, however inconvenient it may seem.

Such proposals remind me of those made in the past (including from within the team) that we can do away with merchants, allowing players to sell directly from their inventory, to store hundreds of objects and craft without stations. I find such suggestions fundamentally misunderstand what Arelith is, and come from a place purely focused on the levelling up and grinding experience. To have a large world worthy of explorations those places, NPCs and landmarks need to have more than aesthetic value, they require a function; removing any of these, especially storage, would be of huge detriment to the setting.

With the change to pickpocket, and the still relatively recent addition of citizenship storage players have significant options for the ring fencing of items, and I personally I wish that more players were open to 'losing' (be it from theft, PvP or politics) without perceiving it as a flaw in the server design.

You own a house in the Forgotten Realms. There are thieves and sometimes that house is going to get robbed. End of story. Having a property on Arelith is itself a huge boon not everyone shares, especially because they are almost all unique in their design. The notion that we are plagued by players watching the player list only to swoop down rob people's homes as soon as they log out is exaggerated at best, paranoid and cynical at worst.

Nevertheless this has been discussed by the team, and I am considering a number of changes, as follows:

No house may be broken into more than once every game day.

A PC may only break into ANY quarter once per game day, meaning that once you have broken into a quarter it will be over 2 hours before you can attempt to do so again at that, OR ANY OTHER location.

The addition of safes (we have models now) at select quarters. 5 item limit, can only be opened by quarter owner.

A more complex system I am entertaining requires a bit more explanation...

This would involve characters being required to register with a local thieves guild before being allowed to break into a quarter. Once inside any item or fixture they take would NOT go into their inventory, but to the local fence in return for 10% of its value (capped). These items would not go on sale to the public for 72 RL hours, during which time the owner would be able to 'buy back' at 25% cost. Such a system would require extensive area work (revisiting literally every quarter in the module), and a good deal of creative flair in its writing.

Please do keep in mind what I said at the beginning of this post - if an item or fixture is precious, save the text. Very little is irreplaceable and that which truly is can be safely left in your inventory.

[Zavandar]

I am not coming at this from an angle of winning or losing but from a lack of interactivity

presently there is no incentive to interact with people you steal from. you are (obviously) less likely to be caught and have repercussions if you do NOT interact with people. this is why many people are stolen from while they are not even online.

logging in just to find your belongings gone and that there is absolutely nothing that can be done about it is a crappy feeling. it has been said now multiple times by multiple people in this thread that RP only comes to the victim if the perpetrator is reported.

I will also say that claiming that these thefts are "comparatively rare" doesnt diminish the fact that it is a problem and a poor practice. The flaw isnt in the "losing". It's in the fact that there was no roleplay on what's supposed to be a roleplay server.

[Security_Blanket]

It happens to some more than others I'm sure, just like how some people never experience PvP then others experience far more than they'd like. To me, it is incredibly immersion breaking to have things just disappear when you're logged off. My character puts in the effort to make a statue/altar just to have it disappear without experiencing ANY RP on my end, even if it's happening on their end. So thieves have an incentive to just keep doing as they've been doing and the folks getting robed just need to put up with it. It's doubly immersion breaking when there are NPCs that may or may not intervene with someone struggling to steal a giant statue from them. PCs can't be everywhere at once and I never know I've been robbed of something until I log in to find out.

All because reports aren't submitted on every infraction don't assume it isn't as common as it is. I literally cannot even count the number of fixtures that have been stolen from the faction I'm in, but we roll with it. We're here to have fun, obviously, not everyone enjoys being robbed, you can be a good sport about it but it takes two to tango. Any reports that are made on the subject are usually met with "Not technically a rule break." So the rules are to rely on the honor system, then report anyone not being honorable, I think you're causing a lot more work for yourselves and grief for the non-thief players.

[Xerah]

If your fixture gets stolen and the response is just to remake the same thing over again from a description saved in word, what are we gaining from this?

[Nitro]

I can't be the only one who thinks that copying the description of a historic fixture and pasting it to create a flawless replica if it gets stolen or destroyed feels a bit cheesy. Surely.

[Irongron]

If your fixture gets stolen and the response is just to remake the same thing over again from a description saved in word, what are we gaining from this?

If a fixture is getting repeatedly stolen from a private area I'd advise reporting it. It may not be against the letter of the rules but I've known DMs follow up on exactly this. I'm definitely not going to solve it by locking down every quarter and guildhouse.

[strong yeet]

I believe your sense of player priority diverges rather starkly from the reality of things, which is not a statement I am particularly pleased to make.

Nobody wants the Abyssal Citadel for the storage -- all of which is gated behind technically ownable quarters, so if all were held by occupants, they would all, including the owner of the larger Citadel itself, be limited to the same 20-per-person as a cheap dirt mayfield's inn room. Everyone except Sencliff pirates has 12 slots of storage by being part of a settlement -- those twelve slots, by the way, can only be stolen out of by someone poking over your shoulder while you have your personal storage open, which feels a little over halfway to an exploit.

The Abyssal Citadel has value because it is the Abyssal Citadel. The Fox's Den has value because it is the Fox's Den, not a room in the Arcane Tower -- it has one chest, with as much storage capacity, 20, as any other quarter.

The "value" in such things is not so tangible, strictly rooted in a sort of "rule of cool"... which is, you know, fine, because the concept of RP is completely worthless by the same metric; PVP conflicts can rack up high costs in consumables, and time spent telling a story around the Skal campfire is time not spent doing dungeons, after all...

[Irongron]

I believe your sense of player priority diverges rather starkly from the reality of things, which is not a statement I am particularly pleased to make.

I am by absolutely no means suggesting storage is the sole motivation for quarter and guildhouse ownership, if it was I wouldn't be spending thousands of hours making them distinct and interesting. I am, however, convinced that removing all storage functionality from them would see their use, and the demand fall drastically, aside from a handful of especially choice guildhouses.. Few are going to march between the bank and their home crafting stations. The entire reason I make housing is so it is used, and I am in zero doubt that storage plays a very large part in that. Dead areas, on that scale would be horrendous.

[The GrumpyCat]

I can't be the only one who thinks that copying the description of a historic fixture and pasting it to create a flawless replica if it gets stolen or destroyed feels a bit cheesy. Surely.

I agree, it is a bit cheesy. I'm actually not hugely in favour of it in most cases. But if you really feel that your super precious painting got stolen with 0 rp and this is The Worst Thing In The World, and you are absolutly Devistated at it's loss... you can just remake it. That is an option.

Again it wouldn't neccesarly be the option I'd take (dependent on the item of course) but you can do it.

[Zavandar]

I'm a little confused that an act involving 0 rp isnt being belittled but trying to keep things with sentimental value and wanting player interaction is

[Scurvy Cur]

I can't be the only one who thinks that copying the description of a historic fixture and pasting it to create a flawless replica if it gets stolen or destroyed feels a bit cheesy. Surely.

I agree, it is a bit cheesy. I'm actually not hugely in favour of it in most cases. But if you really feel that your super precious painting got stolen with 0 rp and this is The Worst Thing In The World, and you are absolutly Devistated at it's loss... you can just remake it. That is an option.

Again it wouldn't neccesarly be the option I'd take (dependent on the item of course) but you can do it.

Let's rephrase and see how it sounds.

I agree, it is a bit cheesy. I'm actually not hugely in favour of it in most cases. But if you really feel that your super precious painting XP and head got stolen with 0 rp and this is The Worst Thing In The World, and you are absolutly Devistated at it's loss... you can just remake it re-grind the xp and wait for the head to decay. That is an option.

Again it wouldn't neccesarly be the option I'd take (dependent on the item of course) but you can do it.

Seems a little dismissive, and also illustrative of why we have a rule to prevent 0 RP killbashes, even if the player who gets hit can just re-make whatever's lost.

The fact that the victim can put themselves back to their original starting point when it happens doesn't excuse people from roleplaying before killing and bashing someone. So why should it be a persuasive argument re: theft?

[strong yeet]

why is this whole thread just green names arguing with the community about why 0 interaction thievery is actually cool

[Nitro]

A more direct analogy would be disarm. Which specifically got changed so you couldn't just run up to someone and deprive them of valuable items at the click of a button. A treatment that even pickpocket got recently, yet quarters still will not get.

[Shadowy Reality]

why is this whole thread just green names arguing with the community about why 0 interaction thievery is actually cool

Maybe because a large part of the community doesn't actually feel the problem is that widespread or that big of a problem. I have played Arelith for well over 10 years, I have owned many quarters over the years. During those 10 years I can count with a single hand the number of time I had things stolen.

Are you folk really getting stuff stolen from your quarters that often? I can understand the sentiment if it's a fixture from a character that has been rolled, that sucks, but at the same time it's just how things are, nothing is everlasting in Arelith. I will say again that I do not think having the same PvP rules apply to theft are a good thing. 9/10 the PC trying to steal will get PvPed to death, because that's just how most players deal with that.

[Aradin]

It also may not be a popular opinion, but I don't feel theft needs to be fun for both sides, or that even needs to be counter play afterwards.

I respectfully disagree I think we should be trying to make the Arelith experience as fun for everyone as possible. Quartertheft is a player stealing something from another player: PVP. We have a rule mandating RP before combat PVP, and a rule mandating RP before assassin PVP. I think a rule mandating RP before (or after, which would probably make more sense in this case) theft PVP would fit right in with the server's general attitude towards player interaction and help facilitate fun crime RP.

That said, I don't think quartertheft is a widespread, virulent problem. It just seems like a thing that could be improved upon.

[Zavandar]

i will reiterate:

claiming that these thefts are "comparatively rare" doesnt diminish the fact that it is a problem and a poor practice. The flaw isnt in the "losing". It's in the fact that there was no roleplay on what's supposed to be a roleplay server.

i also have not had my question in the OP answered:

imagine if you logged in dead, or logged in to find yourself with 20k less gold, or logged in to find yourself exiled. what's the meaningful distinction here? i don't see it.

i bring up the issue of quartertheft because of the bard changes. they made it clear with the introduction of a song that increases open lock/disable trap that quartertheft is a practice that they want to preserve.

[Irongron]

I respectfully disagree I think we should be trying to make the Arelith experience as fun for everyone as possible. Quartertheft is a player stealing something from another player: PVP. We have a rule mandating RP before combat PVP, and a rule mandating RP before assassin PVP. I think a rule mandating RP before (or after) theft PVP would fit right in with the server's general attitude towards player interaction and help facilitate fun crime RP.

That said, I don't think quartertheft is a widespread, virulent problem. It just seems like a thing that could be improved upon.

I absolutely agree with every statement there, and to reiterate I really like seeing thieves attempt follow up RP, or leaving notes. I don't think DMs would ever be able follow up every theft for obligatory RP though, and to be entirely honest I don't entirely buy the whole 'I'm fine with losing stores items and fixtures if the thief RPs with me line'; much of the time it is the simple loss of items that's making people mad, and many would be just as mad if the thief left a signed painting of themselves tucking the ingots under their arm.

I do agree it is not too widespread though, after all many people leave their fixtures in public areas, and as I said in my original reply I also feel improvements can be made, though not by making all quarters impregnable, or removing storage from them (though I'd definitely choose former over the latter)

[Curve]

I have played Arelith for well over 10 years, I have owned many quarters over the years. During those 10 years I can count with a single hand the number of time I had things stolen.

This is my experience too.

But, at the same time I don't care if my character's things are stolen, stacks of addy or fancy painting. I wish someone would come read my note boards. Nothing on Arelith is permanent, and nothing should be 100% secure.

[Zavandar]

I have played Arelith for well over 10 years, I have owned many quarters over the years. During those 10 years I can count with a single hand the number of time I had things stolen.

This is my experience too.

But, at the same time I don't care if my character's things are stolen, stacks of addy or fancy painting. I wish someone would come read my note boards. Nothing on Arelith is permanent, and nothing should be 100% secure.

but all pvp requires interaction (with the exception of quartertheft, which hasn't been explained yet),

[The GrumpyCat]

To be clear on my personal position - I am actually somewhat against chest thefts in general. I actually agree that those are rarely useful or lead to great interactions. And the value of the items in the chests - the mechanical difficulty/time/effort that gone into it can be huge. I see that. I think perhaps with citizen storage it's less of an issue than it was? But in principle I will agree that I see the point there, very much.

But breaking into quarters?

It allows for
*spying
*assasination
*Information gathering
*tricks
*forging
*Squatting
*Bribing
*And more.

The only argument I've heard of value against it is that certain fixtures can be broken/stolen.
Counter argument to that
1) The rules say (and the Dms can enforce) that only one item may be destroyed/stolen per OOC day.* That's really not much.
2) Most fixtures arn't worth that much primarly. There's a few that may be, perhaps, but the vast majority really arn't meaning most will likely be stolen for rp reasons. Maybe you won't see the rp, but the rp will happen around the fixture.
3) If a fixture really is very precious to you you can put it in a storage container
4) If a fixture is really precious to you and you want to show it off - you could remake it. Again I agree it's cheesy, but if you feel that terribly it is an option.
5) the fact that there are so many fixtures out in the public, some of which very old, and yet not stolen - suggests that it probably isn't as hugely rampent as people think
6) In fact whilst we do get reports of loss of fixtures and such - the number is far, far lower than PvP reports.

And again, I wouldn't argue that all pc homes should be open to anyone. Personally I think breaking into a pcs home should be difficult, and require an amount of effort and dedication on the part of the pc thief.

I would also agree that some form of leaving clues, or that a mechanic to ensure the player is online, or yeah, maybe even something that lets DMs vet thieves - isn't a bad idea.

But I think that the reaction to the idea of it even being possible being this absolutly terrified hyperbole, that every single thief would charge upon your quarter specificaly and steall ALL your fixtures with 0 rp ever, cackling madly - is a little off. I think yeah, you would occasionaly end up loosing a fixture... sometimes. But is that the end of the world if it enables all the other things that can come with it?

Oh , or Shadow Reality just put it a lot better

Maybe because a large part of the community doesn't actually feel the problem is that widespread or that big of a problem. I have played Arelith for well over 10 years, I have owned many quarters over the years. During those 10 years I can count with a single hand the number of time I had things stolen.

Are you folk really getting stuff stolen from your quarters that often? I can understand the sentiment if it's a fixture from a character that has been rolled, that sucks, but at the same time it's just how things are, nothing is everlasting in Arelith. I will say again that I do not think having the same PvP rules apply to theft are a good thing. 9/10 the PC trying to steal will get PvPed to death, because that's just how most players deal with that.

*Small Edit because I forgot - I would make an exception for bookshelves, which almost act as mini chests. I would agree that potentialy loosing one of those could show a huge amount of work. I see where people are coming from there.

[Red Ropes]

I really do think the way quarter type theft is handled is very disconnected from the rest of our rules/expectations on PvP and theft.

I think chests when part of a house should have some slight mechanical oversight in so far that;

Only people who own the building / are part of a faction associated with the building should be able to take "freely" from the chest - so that this also stops people who are key thieves from literally ransacking the place (unless they went through the great effort and thus RP/risk).

Stacked items / containers / bookshelves should only be allowed (1) from the stack per 24 hour period.

[A yellow text that pops up when something has been stolen / taken from someone who is not you or in a faction you have associated with your home similar to the new warning pick pocket gives at a delayed timeslot - so players who are less perceptive than their PCs might be can understand something has happened - this is also so people can tell if a glitch happened instead of say, theft, which sometimes is hard to tell.]

Mechanical oversight, though it takes script savy developer time, also keeps the playerbase honest/oopsproof. I really don't think the be nice rule is enough for many reasons (and not because people are bad, but, because not everyone understands english so well as others - or that there may simply be too much to read). It also just protects people from mistakes and makes DM time able to be focused on fun stuff.