Henchmen Feedback

[Scylon]

I haven't had a huge opportunity to work with these yet as I'm still exploring to find them, however having used them a bit I have come across a couple of issues.

One Minor one is when using the boat to travel the henchmen didn't follow me. Not sure why?

2nd one is the AI seems a little dumb. I have had a lot of issues just getting them to fight. They kind of just stand there most of the time, and when they do decide to fight the battle is over, or they get stuck in a casting loop.

Just what I have seen thus far.

[Arienette]

Are you using the associate control feat/tool?

The AI is sort of dumb, you will have much better results if you put this tool on F1 keyboard shortcut and get used to using it.

[mjones3]

I'd suggest adding the level range/cap to each Henchmen since lots of folks seem confused about why they won't work for them.

[Scylon]

Are you using the associate control feat/tool?

The AI is sort of dumb, you will have much better results if you put this tool on F1 keyboard shortcut and get used to using it.

I have attempted both.

[Drowboy]

Hate to be a killjoy, as everyone knows, but uh hey uh hey yall



Maybe she could have the AB/damage (crits for 90 and swings KDs) or the high ac/hp, but not both? This is before barkskin (+4 ac), mage armor (+1 at least), haste (+4) on the AC side, and str/con buffs (2-3 ab/damage, 2-3*level- 50-75 extra HP)-

And all before leadership bonuses: 1 AB, 1 AC, 1 extra attack, +3 to saves (not in this pic but they aren't bad), and more HP. Also, she's got EKD dr and defensive awareness.

She's gorgeous but maybe too gorgeous you feel me

[Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia]

Some of the strangeness in henchman behavior has been tracked down to a script error pointing their behavior incorrectly. This is being fixed, as are a few other things. Some of the power disparities are also being adjusted, with some too strong/too weak. Enjoy the strong one for now, but change is definitely coming.

[Scylon]

See stats like that are decent. and I can work with that.

My issues are as outlined above with the AI. They need to work more closely to summons AI. maybe a 50-60% increase in aggro range for a start.

Not sure the issues with casting loops can be fixed as everything does that.

[Security_Blanket]

Will henchmen be available to level 30s?

[Bunnysmack]

If they are, I really hope they are positively garbage for lvl 30 PvP...That would introduce some rather alarming gameplay trends for people engaged in more antagonistic ventures.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

If they are, I really hope they are positively garbage for lvl 30 PvP...That would introduce some rather alarming gameplay trends for people engaged in more antagonistic ventures.

Imagine dominating your opponent's henchmen.

[Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia]

Will henchmen be available to level 30s?

Henchmen, if they find themselves roped into the PvP meta, will almost certainly be nerfed. Henchmen will be minimally available at 30 to minimize the need for this.

[Security_Blanket]

That's a pretty harsh hit for people that invested points into Leadership. My sole interest in investing heavily in Leadership was so I could have henchmen as a part of my RP at level 30. Never mind how weak they may be. Even if you're a level 30 there's no reason you shouldn't be able to hire a guard. It doesn't have to be like miss over-the-top level 25 duergar up there or even have a cool backstory.
Just add some generic henchmen that people can hire. Like talking to a commander type NPC for the generic henchmen, they'd fit nicely with some of the stuff in New Guldorand. Allow folks to hire "Iron Throne Mercenary", "Flaming Fist Mercenary", "Zhentarim Mercenary", and so on. And you could add generic henchmen options to guildhalls, allow faction members to hire them like nobles can hire guards from their castles.

[Scylon]

That's a pretty harsh hit for people that invested points into Leadership. My sole interest in investing heavily in Leadership was so I could have henchmen as a part of my RP at level 30. Never mind how weak they may be. Even if you're a level 30 there's no reason you shouldn't be able to hire a guard. It doesn't have to be like miss over-the-top level 25 duergar up there or even have a cool backstory.
Just add some generic henchmen that people can hire. Like talking to a commander type NPC for the generic henchmen, they'd fit nicely with some of the stuff in New Guldorand. Allow folks to hire "Iron Throne Mercenary", "Flaming Fist Mercenary", "Zhentarim Mercenary", and so on. And you could add generic henchmen options to guildhalls, allow faction members to hire them like nobles can hire guards from their castles.

I 2nd this. I don't personally care about a named henchmen. If I'm pumping 50+ points in leadership I'd like to see a return on RP and mechanically . However I dislike the idea of the generic ones being tied to a faction. I'd personally like to see a mercenary hall or something where these can be hired/brought.

[Batrachophrenoboocosmomachia]

That's a pretty harsh hit for people that invested points into Leadership. My sole interest in investing heavily in Leadership was so I could have henchmen as a part of my RP at level 30. Never mind how weak they may be. Even if you're a level 30 there's no reason you shouldn't be able to hire a guard. It doesn't have to be like miss over-the-top level 25 duergar up there or even have a cool backstory.
Just add some generic henchmen that people can hire. Like talking to a commander type NPC for the generic henchmen, they'd fit nicely with some of the stuff in New Guldorand. Allow folks to hire "Iron Throne Mercenary", "Flaming Fist Mercenary", "Zhentarim Mercenary", and so on. And you could add generic henchmen options to guildhalls, allow faction members to hire them like nobles can hire guards from their castles.

All pretty reasonable right there to me. I just don't want heat-guided nuclear torpedo henchmen. (Incidentally, the screenshot of Bloodbeard posted above is also an old one, and another revision of her is going in later.)

[mjones3]

Henchmen, if they find themselves roped into the PvP meta, will almost certainly be nerfed. Henchmen will be minimally available at 30 to minimize the need for this.

If possible a change to the ai where if the henchmen attack a player they nope out of there saying something along the lines of "this is beyond what you're paying me for". That way they wouldn't have to eat a nerf because a few people decide to use them to win in pvp.

I feel that it should be similar to ignoring ai almost in that you're bringing them along to something that will almost surely get them killed, or even cause a long standing grudge against them. As it is now you can hire a merc, and just have them attack anyone in the area you hired them, it seems silly that they would do it.

[Irongron]

I will continue, over time to add more surface henchmen, and the new city will start with a considerable number.

Here are a few points from my overall design philosophy. (Note: I am currently ONLY working on surface henchmen)

Henchmen will be POOR. Significantly worse than PCs and summons of a similar level. It really is critical for me that they require buffing/support from PC to be viable.

Their leadership requirement will be based upon their level, strength and RP value, I will unlikely go beyond 70.

For the most part henchmen will only ever carry mundane weapons - if you want to get the best out of them, bring scrolls.

Henchmen have low perception ranges, this is to reflect the fact they are not being paid to throw their lives away, and will only engage when Enemies get close.

[Skarain]

I play a Sorcerer without Summons in the UD, and so far I've LOVED whenever the henchman has a Mundane weapon that I can enchant with - for example with Greater Magic Weapon. Elemental damage from say, Flame Weapon scroll didn't stick (with Deadman, was a while ago) but did increase the AB so not complaining.

It felt great being able to buff the henchmen and make it more effective that way. However, as a Sorcerer ( 2 + INT) I don't really have that many skill points to spare, and won't be able to have Leadership included in my build. I WILL gear for it, though.

I like being able to hire henchmen that are useful without a huge Leadership requirement. Leadership gives substantial bonuses to Henchmen, but I'd be sad to see them all "locked" behind it. Some, sure, as long as not all.

[Scylon]

Here are a few points from my overall design philosophy. (Note: I am currently ONLY working on surface henchmen)

Sounds like a bit of a mixed bag of good and bad,

Henchmen will be POOR. Significantly worse than PCs and summons of a similar level. It really is critical for me that they require buffing/support from PC to be viable. -

I don't think if I pushed 50+ leadership that the quality of the men should be poor. I totally understand sub 50 however. Over 50, or even 70 as you elude to is a hefty investment. You'd need to sacrifice to get it. If there is no "pay off" for the investment, then why would we? If we can just summon something that is going to out perform it i mean.

Their leadership requirement will be based upon their level, strength and RP value, I will unlikely go beyond 70 -

Again, if the rewards match the investment, I an many other would go all in on this. I currency am playing a commander type character.

For the most part henchmen will only ever carry mundane weapons - if you want to get the best out of them, bring scrolls -

No real comment on this, though if they are 50+ this might need to be assessed. Bob the dragon slayer didn't get there by keeping a bronze sword.

Henchmen have low perception ranges, this is to reflect the fact they are not being paid to throw their lives away, and will only engage when Enemies get close -

I get this from a RP perspective, however if they just don't fight at all they are fired. There is no room in my unit for cowards!!

[Good Character]

I don't think if I pushed 50+ leadership that the quality of the men should be poor. I totally understand sub 50 however. Over 50, or even 70 as you elude to is a hefty investment. You'd need to sacrifice to get it. If there is no "pay off" for the investment, then why would we? If we can just summon something that is going to out perform it i mean.

Leadership is a skill that is accessible by nearly every prominent class in the meta or every prominent dip class. Furthermore, you get huge bonuses for going deep into Leadership when it comes to henchmen. Their biggest two bonuses are 1. They cannot be dismissed like summons and 2. They're essentially an extra 5% chance to hit at minimum at 5 APR post-epic. So when you pair an already likely strong melee PC who went deep into leadership (especially a Knight) with now a strong henchmen it makes PvP completely unbalanced.

[Gouge Away]

Leadership isn't available to every prominent class or build-- but it should be, I think it should be a completely open skill anyone can take like heal or lore.

[Good Character]

But it is. Every meta build that I can think involves their main class already having Leadership or their dip class having it, especially the dips (e.g. Div-dips, bard-dips, monk-dips.)

Meta has definitely shifted, though, with the Timestop change. Some builds that lack it are barb mix-ups, EKD, hexblade, etc.

My point being is that the already strong builds of now being allowed to double down on their strength with the addition of strong henchmen makes no feasible sense. Not saying this is the current case, but is the general theme this thread seems to want to take.

[chris a gogo]

Been using the lizard guy in the UD the one needing 50 leadership and he's pretty good and decently balanced only issue ive noticed is you can't buff his sword with flame or GMW.

Other than that he does decent damage with a decent AB but has terrible AC so a good balance on it.

[Bunnysmack]

Every meta build that I can think involves their main class already having Leadership or their dip class having it, especially the dips (e.g. Div-dips, bard-dips, monk-dips.)

Not a class skill for wild mage, which has large incentives to go full 30 levels of wizard.

[Gouge Away]

But it is. Every meta build that I can think involves their main class already having Leadership or their dip class having it, especially the dips (e.g. Div-dips, bard-dips, monk-dips.)

Well, no it doesn't, and if someone wants to go off-meta like pure fighter (which I don't but if they do) they should have leadership as an option. I mean isn't that supposed to reflect military training, why do you have to dip bard to get there?

We really have to stop saying if some choice isn't in the top 10 most popular builds today it doesn't matter. Leadership should be a class agnostic skill, every melee in particular should have access.

[Good Character]

Well, no it doesn't, and if someone wants to go off-meta like pure fighter (which I don't but if they do) they should have leadership as an option. I mean isn't that supposed to reflect military training, why do you have to dip bard to get there?

We really have to stop saying if some choice isn't in the top 10 most popular builds today it doesn't matter. Leadership should be a class agnostic skill, every melee in particular should have access.

What doesn't?

I am also not trying to impose that an off-meta pure fighter shouldn't receive Leadership. I actually encourage the idea of fighter receiving it, if my words sounded like I was against it. As I mentioned, my point is that these strong PvP builds are powerful enough with the current state and direction Leadership is in and where henchmen are directed that they don't need henchmen with stronger base stats under the guise of "I invested a lot of points".

The latter bit about melee build is what I personally advocate for, but with some sort of limitation of a henchmen's existence in PvP. If they are any bit strong, then needs to be a consequence for them being that strong beyond skill point investment. Something like a X amount of deposit in case the henchman dies and/or barring a PC from hiring that henchman for X months if the henchman died.

Not a class skill for wild mage, which has large incentives to go full 30 levels of wizard.

Semantics but I see your point. Not what I was alluding to.