On the Subject of Assassins

[JubJub]

Honestly the state of the assassins guild is because players couldn't be trusted. it use to be no rp before trying to assassinate the target. But due to cheesy and possible ooc actions the system was exploited to where the assassin would chill next to the target and wait for the contract to be placed and then insta pounce on the traget. Which sadly led to what the system is today and not very useful.

problem #2 was many of the assassins were pals and worked with certain people. So if that person had a contract put on them they would never bother to try to do the contract.

[Diegovog]

Hi, long time assassin player here. I absolutely love it, so please devs take my criticism as something I love and would like to see improved.

First, I've tried twice to reach both the DMs and the Dev team in the forum to suggest both extensive changes in poison system as well as ways to improve the Guild Hall and interaction with people. Both of these attempts of mine weren't even answered so I take that there's not much interest in looking at this class right now.

Assassin is high tier nowadays because of Swashbuckler. There's not that much wiggle room for viable builds if you want to be able to really take contracts on people, but if built properly, they are absolutely top notch. They are also mechanically super fun to play both in pve and pvp.

Now here are some of the problems I tried discussing before:

1- Poison is simply bad. You're fishing for 1's. And even with the last update to fix poison working with essences, eyeblast still doesn't and probably other poison also don't stack (haven't fully tested them). I wouldn't mind if they were just fishing for 1's but the poison just doesn't last long at all. Usually when you go for an assassination you prepare yourself and then you interact. It's such a shame by design that you always lose the poison coating from your blade when you try to have deep and long interactions before the assassination attempt. For something as bad as poison is, it should last a long time. Clearly also pretty unviable for pve.

2- Death attack. The paralyze check will only trigger if the opponent isn't in combat. Which means if he drinks a potion before or do any action it will be as useful as a sneak attack (which is fine!). Again, that's a bit of a strange design in a server you're attempting to promote RP, death attack shouldn't trigger only if you strike first, that's only catering that if you play on the assassin's strength you're basically shooting first, leaving people salty about it. Generally speaking in every pvp encounter it's always better to let the target take the first aggressive step. Someone might say "but you can play around the assassin special 24h rule and then strike first after interaction". Well, guess what, the only time I did that I was reported by the player for a "not fun" assassination. And it's really not fun for them! You have a class that by design have an ability that functions if the other person doesn't have fun. So you simply should never play around death attack unless the mark has no detection and you can stalk the person after interaction to wait combat music to be lifted.

3- Bounties. Most targets, especially settlement leaders will simply pay it off. In my opinion, the mark should have to pay 150% of the value of the bounty they have on their heads, that way bounties are actually economic damage to targets. In addition to that, I would double the IRL time it lasts but would not allow the timer of bounty to refresh if someone simply adds another 10k to it. If the person lived for the extended bounty time, kudos to them, they deserve to be free from it.

4- Minimum bounties or usefulness to low bounties. 50k should be minimum. The risks and investment of both time and resources you make doesn't justify anything less than that. You're spending hours of IRL into studying and finding someone. 10k bounties are simply a meme to annoy someone like "you're not worth more than that".

5- Tools to help assassins. I promise anyone who hasn't ever player an assassin that; it's stupidly difficult to kill someone who has a high bounty nowadays. I've seen people staying behind guild houses for weeks IRL just to avoid assassins. Many people, actually, even some who advocate that "losing is fine". When they have a bounty on their heads things turn 180º. So I don't think there should be an in-guild scrier exactly because it's part of the job of an assassin to build a network of information and contacts. However, I think there should be something more mechanical such as:
* A diviner NPC that will give information about a target depending on the assassin's belt level and these would be
1st rank: Gender
2nd rank: Race
3rd rank: Starting town they chose in the server and in what leyline they are if they are online
Master Assassin rank: The NPC would actually inform where the person is at that moment through the name of the area but only 1x per in game day. Is that broken? Absolutely not, you have no idea how many areas are named like "the cave" or give zero indication of which house it could be. It would at least give a chance for the assassin to give chase even if they don't have a scrier available when their target is finally on.
* Give them a little nice garden, we have collected millions of gold for the guild, seems only fair that they give a little ground for poison herbs.

6- Improving internal communication. I have tried many times to contact, offer meetings, mentorship and help for other members. There's generally zero interest in the other assassins in meeting or interacting. I understand it's part of the role they decided to play in that character so I have no idea how to actually do it, so if someone could come up with a way of encouraging interaction within the Guild, I'm ears open.

My suggestions:
- Make poison last 10x longer. Redesign most of the 100% useless poison.
- Change the death attack's paralyze to be something like a 1 round slow (with all its penalties) that can be triggered in every sneak attack. It's fine if it'1s fishing for 1's but it should punish low fortitude builds imo.
3- Double the current IRL time of bounties, 150% of the bounty to pay it off and don't allow it to be refreshed for longer duration.
4- Offer tools to help the assassin with these monumental tasks of murdering and offering enjoyment to people.

[Diegovog]

problem #2 was many of the assassins were pals and worked with certain people. So if that person had a contract put on them they would never bother to try to do the contract.

That's actually a huge benefit of being an assassin. People will want you as friend rather than having you on the bad side. Being a known successful assassin and simply refusing to murder their allies is status and power.

[Diegovog]

poison DC is not too low. Eyeblast is a ~10 minute blind. It would be crazy if the DC were much higher than it is presently.

Eyeblast lasts 3 rounds.

Secondary effect is another 1 round but don't even bother with secondary effects, they never ever have time to hit. Which is why Widow's Kiss is just a super cool torture RP.

[JubJub]

problem #2 was many of the assassins were pals and worked with certain people. So if that person had a contract put on them they would never bother to try to do the contract.

That's actually a huge benefit of being an assassin. People will want you as friend rather than having you on the bad side. Being a known successful assassin and simply refusing to murder their allies is status and power.

I agree but IMO I always thought any assassin who wanted to be the best or considered elite should have the "yeah I like you but business is business" attitude. Simply having a group who says I won't touch pals sort of ruins the system.

[Diegovog]

Assassins abilities really shine in PVE, but ethereal vision, darkness etc aren't much vs a player who knows what they're doing. I see people laugh off assassin contracts because they know there's no PVP threat.

I'd suggest... Open the assassin class so you don't need a DM token. Make access to the assassination guild itself require a DM token and application but open it up to any class (with evil alignment as the only requirement.) So it would be a place to network and take contracts and it's open to characters with all sorts of skills to bring to the table, not just a bunch of identically built assassins.

Completely disagree there. Assassins' spells are amazing in pvp too.
Ethereal visage is a class-built immunity to implosion which would normally be deadly against assassins. Also pretty good against the new biteback from ED.
Improved Invisibility has huge FOIG benefits.
Darkness that will give you ultravision inside has saved me more than once when caught off guard.
And the invisibility that will make you faster? You can stealth as if you were in haste speed and you can alternate between invisibility and improved invisibility if nobody in the area has see invisibility.

People laugh off at assassins contracts because nobody is claiming any right now. And being an assassin is super hard.

Assassins have a flavor of their own and are super cool, I don't think they should be open for everyone, especially people who 5-dip it as casters.

[JubJub]

Assassins abilities really shine in PVE, but ethereal vision, darkness etc aren't much vs a player who knows what they're doing. I see people laugh off assassin contracts because they know there's no PVP threat.

I'd suggest... Open the assassin class so you don't need a DM token. Make access to the assassination guild itself require a DM token and application but open it up to any class (with evil alignment as the only requirement.) So it would be a place to network and take contracts and it's open to characters with all sorts of skills to bring to the table, not just a bunch of identically built assassins.

If i remember right at one time you didn't need a token and resulted in alot of poor behavior. People wanting assassin for the power and ability to kill someone from the guild and not to rp an assassin. I think if one wants assassin abilites they should show how they plan to be an assassin. I mean I played an assassin and wanted nothing to do with the guild. She wasn't some hired killer, but she was an elite killer meant to 'remove" enemies of her god and church. She had no interest in killing someone simply for coin. But when her church needed a heretic or someone trying to harm the church taken care of they called on her.

[Drak]

So a big part of my post that I should have just come out and said was this:

It doesn't matter how strong an Assassin is. If they have the ability to run away from us so easily, our strength doesn't matter. Rogues can use bombs....mages can hold person, etc. As an Assassin, nothing in my toolbox stops that. Except the 5% chance to possibly paralyze them on the offchance that I get the first attack.

[chris a gogo]

Tangle foot bags?
Traps?
Hold wands, grease wands, any scroll you like after having invested into lore.

[Drak]

Tangle foot bags?
Traps?
Hold wands, grease wands, any scroll you like after having invested into lore.

Right, and the DC's are so bad for us that are they even worth it?

[mjones3]

poison DC is not too low. Eyeblast is a ~10 minute blind. It would be crazy if the DC were much higher than it is presently.

It lasts 3 rounds not 10 minutes. The poison itself lasts for 10 minutes on the blade.

So a big part of my post that I should have just come out and said was this:

It doesn't matter how strong an Assassin is. If they have the ability to run away from us so easily, our strength doesn't matter. Rogues can use bombs....mages can hold person, etc. As an Assassin, nothing in my toolbox stops that. Except the 5% chance to possibly paralyze them on the offchance that I get the first attack.

Rogues and mages all require RP immediately before PVP and both effects you mentioned are easily countered with freedom. Assassins can always get the first hit because they have a different RP before PVP requirement, can swing 2 on hit effects to fish for a debilitate/paralyze. If it fails, just run and come back later to finish them off. Nothing says you need to finish a fight, add some fear, come in randomly. Hell you're going to be dex based just shoot them with a bow to fish for the initial fishing (because shooting a 27 dc 2 round confusion is good or a dc anything 10 round paralysis) and again run if it doesn't work.

Edit: Even if you don't kill them making someone walk around fully warded all the time in fear of suddenly getting ambushed makes for some good RP.

[Nitro]

I don't really consider no-rp PvP harassment good RP in literally any sense but hey, you do you.

[mjones3]

Ah yeah that does sound pretty bad now that I stop and think about it, and you probably wouldn't get an assassin token if you did it. I meant more so the constant fear that could be roleplayed but it would likely just lead to a bad time.

[Drak]

I don't really consider no-rp PvP harassment good RP in literally any sense but hey, you do you.

This is part of the problem as well. Personally, if I had an Assassin after me I'd be a bit excited. Though, I can't say many of the people here feel the same way.

Its sort of one of those things against the "Be Nice Rule". Not everyone will enjoy it. Though I guess to be fair, if you don't like it, pay the fine. Chances are you're probably on the Contract list for being rude, killing someone else, or a part of a faction/group that is in opposition to another. In which case, your Contract is probably well deserved.

[Maladus]

It puts you as the Assassin in a sort of weird position. On one hand, you want to ensure that everyone involved has fun so you think you ought to communicate to the player OOC that they are being stalked and inquire whether they are interested in engaging in the assassination RP regardless of outcome. But that involves a lot of trust in the other player that they will not use that information to their IC gain by stowing away inside a guild house or simply pay off the bounty. Not a fun position to be in regardless.

One thing that could be useful to help coordinate assassins and possibly encourage some comradery or even competition, would be to allow everyone with the assassin token to also see other people who have the token. This would work identically to the Zhent/Harper token. The two of you would know that they are dealing with an assassin and could take or leave that information and put it to use in future RP together.

[Drowboy]

Having played a Harper and an assassin: for the love of god no, do not make assassins spottable by other assassins.

[Maladus]

Why not?

[Nitro]

Even with the strict secrecy rules of harpers, players still manage to be silly and either insinuate in the open that X is a harper, or outright expose others from time to time.

Assassins have no such secrecy rules, there would be nothing stopping any faction that might employ assassins to retain one or several assassins and have them point out all other assassins so they can be avoided/counter-ganked.

[Nekonecro]

Would like to remind folks that the guild also takes a 25% cut of the bounty.
So that 10k bounty? you only get 7.5k of it.

[thimblegiant]

problem #2 was many of the assassins were pals and worked with certain people. So if that person had a contract put on them they would never bother to try to do the contract.

That's actually a huge benefit of being an assassin. People will want you as friend rather than having you on the bad side. Being a known successful assassin and simply refusing to murder their allies is status and power.

I agree but IMO I always thought any assassin who wanted to be the best or considered elite should have the "yeah I like you but business is business" attitude. Simply having a group who says I won't touch pals sort of ruins the system.

Well, as in life, friendship may not always be what you think it is. I had a character assassinated by an IG friend, which was completely unexpected. He was one of the first people I had met on the isle and had adventured together early on, RPing on and off regularly. I knew he was somewhat shady, but I had no idea he was an assassin. It happened that I had even paid off the contract before I agreed to meet with him semi-privately. Either he didn't get the memo or was hired on the side to do the job because our meeting ended with one of us with a knife in the gut. I suspect the latter as the he mentioned the amount of gold (80K) that our friendship apparently was worth was far more than the original contract - "business is business and I need the coin". The whole experience was awesome. I loved the RP, the popups after server transitions alerting me a contract was on my head, the feeling of being hunted, betrayal.

Ultimately it was a great way to end the story for that character, even if unplanned. It's been a couple of RL years now and you (JubJub) may have wondered what happened to him. Now you know.

[Diegovog]

Assassin tag to other assassins is bad because counter-assassination is a thing. And keeping a House Assassin secret for your own purposes and uses is a significant tactile advantage.

I've tried increasing interaction within the Guild but as a general feeling I don't think other assassins want, which is fine I guess. Unfortunately one assassin doesn't complement other assassins in abilities needed. Most would rather take an abjurer with them if they need help for difficult targets. Still, I always thought it would be pretty cool to have a bunch of old scum chatting about their murder or attempts and exchanging tales of terrifying failures.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

This is just my thoughts, but if your assassin isn't 'strong enough,' you're probably not doing enough footwork before the kill.

I mean, I'm just saying. If I played an assassin, bluff/disguise to the max, find a way for your persona to introduce themselves, get cozy enough to go adventuring with your mark - multiple times, if necessary- all until you find yourself in the situation where they hit the rest button in front of you.

Interrupt their rest, they don't get their abilities back- and they're vulnerable to a death attack flurry with no buffs up (freedom of movement out of the way).

I would hazard a guess that the sentiment Dalenger mentioned about waiving the required hostile RP imminently before attacking but not being 'great' at it is at least tangentially onto something.

IF you RP an assassin well enough to get close enough to your target like in the example I gave above, or in any other circumstance, you have met the requirements for taking the kill. No one is going to be able to point a finger at you and say there was no prior RP- there was certainly quality assassin RP if the character felt comfortable enough to close their eyes in front of them and get shanked.

In an equitable character level situation, or even at a lower level, the assassin ends that scene with a kill in my head 99 times out of a 100, just fine, even without the pre-existing Arelith perks. Is it a fair fight?

No. Duh, assassin.

[Maladus]

This is just my thoughts, but if your assassin isn't 'strong enough,' you're probably not doing enough footwork before the kill.

I mean, I'm just saying. If I played an assassin, bluff/disguise to the max, find a way for your persona to introduce themselves, get cozy enough to go adventuring with your mark - multiple times, if necessary- all until you find yourself in the situation where they hit the rest button in front of you.

Interrupt their rest, they don't get their abilities back- and they're vulnerable to a death attack flurry with no buffs up (freedom of movement out of the way).

I would hazard a guess that the sentiment Dalenger mentioned about waiving the required hostile RP imminently before attacking but not being 'great' at it is at least tangentially onto something.

IF you RP an assassin well enough to get close enough to your target like in the example I gave above, or in any other circumstance, you have met the requirements for taking the kill. No one is going to be able to point a finger at you and say there was no prior RP- there was certainly quality assassin RP if the character felt comfortable enough to close their eyes in front of them and get shanked.

In an equitable character level situation, or even at a lower level, the assassin ends that scene with a kill in my head 99 times out of a 100, just fine, even without the pre-existing Arelith perks. Is it a fair fight?

No. Duh, assassin.

This is all assuming the person who is the target doesn't pay off the contract or hide indoors as soon as they get the console warning about them being a target for assassination.

Also, as an assassin, the onus is on you to ensure that the RP is fun for everyone involved. While your above example does satisfy in my eyes the RP required for an assassin to strike...it sounds decidedly un-fun for the person who gets slain.

[Nitro]

And saying "Just RP and prepare better" is kind of an absurd stance to have when it comes to balance. What, should we deliberately make some classes weaker to encourage them to get friends not playing that class?

[Watchful Glare]

1.) Make Contracts unable to be paid off and no notice to the player OOC.

2.) Make Death Attack paralyze chance apply to every sneak attack, not just the first round.

3.) Increase Poison DC even further.

-- Would this fix it?

These are viable suggestions. For my first character in this server I decided I wanted to play a sneaky assassin type, which I did and still do, PrC and everything. And since it was going to be focused on Stealth to do spy things and ocassional RP Assassination I went heavily into Assassin class, high INT for all those skillpoints and Death Attack and spells Synergy, for all the languages to be able to spy better, nonetheless this has the troubles mentioned before.

1- Their AB is abysmal if you go full Assassin to maximize that poison and death attack DC and to get access to all assassin features. You can't hit any build that's a fighter type. And their fort saves are so high your Death Attack harmlessly bounces off of them if you manage to land a nat 20 from stealth even. So they will turn around at your carefully attempted assassination when you finally go for it, and kill you.

2- The way Death Attack works. I thought I could at the very least, assassinate Casters then. Even if they are warded to hell and back they have low Fort Saves so maybe you can get a Death Attack in, paralyse them, that will lower their AC due to being flatfooted and you will be able to land in more Death Attacks for extra damage and kill them, eventually breaking their means of damage resistance.

Wrong. You successfully sneak on them after doing some assassin RP to increase the stakes, build up the suspense tracking them... Get off a Death Attack in a dramatic moment... Proc that %. And they -pray, turn around and disintegrate you on the spot with a high level wombo combo.

-Pray makes all those such Death Attack tactics useless.

It always vexed me that other classes are better assassins than the assassin class, if nothing else, because of the name of the PrC.

On the subject of contracted work through the Guild, it's not as used as targeted assassinations because of the abeforementioned reasons. More often than not, assassination through Guild turns into a 'who has the most money' kind of thing where both parties involved chug money at an NPC repeatedly in an on-and-off kind of contest. Unfortunately, Assassin Players see none of that money, so to them it's utterly irrelevant except they hear the vfx of someone playing with a light switch when they walk near the guild.

1.) Make Contracts unable to be paid off and no notice to the player OOC.

This is an interesting proposal. And it would give more weight to them. On the downside it would mean that settlement leaders and people in important positions would have a bounty on them 24/7 which might not be very fun for them depending on how Assassins take it, but there's plenty of PvP to go around in those positions already so I don't think it would be too much of a difference. I would make it so it's not that it cannot be paid off, but like someone else suggested make it so they have to pay more than the poster. 150% Sounds like a good start. And no notice OOCly sounds good too, it seems a bit meta to get an OOC warning about something that is supposed to be done in secret. Make it last longer.