Sibayad Portal

[JoeKickAss]

Monsters have been barred from Sibayad. Only nexus portal is in a place that cannot be accessed without going through the town.

Suggestion:

1. Relax monster restrictions in towns, or
2. Move nexus portals with due consideration given to where monsters can and cannot access

[Itikar]

viewtopic.php?f=37&t=32037#p252640

Relevant post from the previous thread.

[Scylon]

A suggestion: change the portal that is the exit point for the tomb dungeons to be a source portal. problem solved. Get to keep the laws and monsters only need to bolt through the town once.

[JoeKickAss]

A suggestion: change the portal that is the exit point for the tomb dungeons to be a source portal. problem solved. Get to keep the laws and monsters only need to bolt through the town once.

I think the problem is more serious, the Sibayad portal is replicated elsewhere (no nexus portals near cordor, or guldo that monsters can use). Arelith is not designed to have monster races banned from a whole Cities & Planes server. It's fine if that's the direction they are going. If monsters are banned from everywhere, there needs to be server changes to make it clearer what monsters can and can't do without a DM on the surface. A lot of high quality gobbos have quit recently because they feel stifled. I do think it is a problem, as it seems there is now settlements everywhere that monsters can't burn to the ground, and from a monsters perspective act as essentially untouchable safe zones for surfacers. Can monsters slaughter the entire Merchant League in Sibayad in response to them banning them? Right now, monsters need to essentially metagame just to return to the underdark or pay 2,500 for lenses which dont seem to work half the time.

[-XXX-]

Underdark has all the best farming spots both for loot and for xp. Why'd you want to go to the surface?

[JoeKickAss]

Underdark has all the best farming spots both for loot and for xp. Why'd you want to go to the surface?

RP, fun interactions with other players and shenanigans. That's why PCs amass xp and loot.

[mjones3]

I think the problem is more serious, the Sibayad portal is replicated elsewhere (no nexus portals near cordor, or guldo that monsters can use).

Why does there need to be an easy exit for monsters near those places? What would it bring other than removing the need to go to the currently few easy free exits or just using a lens? Knowing that there are only a few free exits that are usually a decent distance from the settlements make sit possible to actually try and catch raiders if they don't just poof out with a lens. I can't count all the times I've watched the surface horde run frantic to scour areas just to almost always find nothing even with how things are currently.

I do think it is a problem, as it seems there is now settlements everywhere that monsters can't burn to the ground, and are essentially just safe zones for surfacers.

That's exactly what cities are, heavily (maybe Logging Guld less so) populated with adventurers, guards, and civilians where monsters will get slaughtered if they try to attack. What story comes with burning down a city that couldn't be accomplished with some minor cosmetic damage done to an outer building? You can do raids, you just need to apply for them with DM's.

[JoeKickAss]

I think the problem is more serious, the Sibayad portal is replicated elsewhere (no nexus portals near cordor, or guldo that monsters can use).

Why does there need to be an easy exit for monsters near those places? What would it bring other than removing the need to go to the currently few easy free exits or just using a lens? Knowing that there are only a few free exits that are usually a decent distance from the settlements make sit possible to actually try and catch raiders if they don't just poof out with a lens. I can't count all the times I've watched the surface horde run frantic to scour areas just to almost always find nothing even with how things are currently.

I do think it is a problem, as it seems there is now settlements everywhere that monsters can't burn to the ground, and are essentially just safe zones for surfacers.

That's exactly what cities are, heavily (maybe Logging Guld less so) populated with adventurers, guards, and civilians where monsters will get slaughtered if they try to attack. What story comes with burning down a city that couldn't be accomplished with some minor cosmetic damage done to an outer building? You can do raids, you just need to apply for them with DM's.

To an extent I agree with the first point. But it is more that forcing players to the same zones, doing the same things constantly just makes for boring gameplay. And PCs have left because of this.


Second point is moving from the original post but I can see it is linked:

In terms of Sibayad, a shanty tent town in a desert, a guy with stealth with a lighter could burn down a few tents and the entire merchant league. If a horde cant annihilate it, why create a tribe at all? Why is everyone so scared of monsters if they can be stopped by a small trading post miles from anywhere? In other words, "Sibayad is too strong" just feels like hardcoded plot armour from an RP perspective for a town with garden walls protecting tents. "Sibayad rulers pay orcs not to burn it" seemed reasonable.

What stories are so important that would be lost if Sibayad was burned to the ground? Seems like if it was burnt to the ground, you would at least get conflict and intrigue over control of a less populated ruined husk by miscreants, crusaders and megalomaniacs. Its destruction and rebuilding could fuel server-wide shenanigans people talk about.

[mjones3]

But it is more that forcing players to the same zones, doing the same things constantly just makes for boring gameplay. And PCs have left because of this.

Its not forcing them to do the same thing they are just choosing to because its the best strategy that gets them a "win". No matter how you try to spin it raiding the surface only ends a few ways. Based on the roleplay on both sides those end results can be enjoyable for one side, both sides, or neither.

In terms of Sibayad, a shanty tent town in a desert, a guy with stealth with a lighter could burn down a few tents and the entire merchant league. If a horde cant annihilate it, why create a tribe at all? In other words, "Sibayad is too strong" just feels like hardcoded plot armour from an RP perspective for a town with garden walls protecting tents. "Sibayad rulers pay orcs not to burn it" seemed reasonable.

Work with DM's. Apply for a raid, they might let you smoke out a few tents but you're never going to get to just destroy an area developers have spent a significant amount of time working on. Its the same reason adventurers can't just burn down Goblin Town or ANY area we fight npcs. Realistically speaking the xvarts near Brog and the Grotto die in the thousands every tendays in game, where are more coming from? You need to apply some extra suspension of disbelief because this isn't PnP where the dm can just say hell yeah burn it all and then just scribble poorly (some insights to my pnp experiences) on some grid paper to make the next area.

[-XXX-]

Underdark has all the best farming spots both for loot and for xp. Why'd you want to go to the surface?

RP, fun interactions with other players and shenanigans. That's why PCs amass xp and loot.

Sibayad and surrounding areas appear to be primarily designed as a space where surface toons level up. UD characters bringing PvP conflict there might be seen as picking on lower level toons.
Amicable interactions between UD and surface toons are discouraged for the most part.

There's plenty of other areas where RP, fun interactions with other players and shenanigans can take place without any issues whatsoever.

[JoeKickAss]

Its not forcing them to do the same thing they are just choosing to because its the best strategy that gets them a "win". No matter how you try to spin it raiding the surface only ends a few ways. Based on the roleplay on both sides those end results can be enjoyable for one side, both sides, or neither.

Work with DM's. Apply for a raid, they might let you smoke out a few tents but you're never going to get to just destroy an area developers have spent a significant amount of time working on. Its the same reason adventurers can't just burn down Goblin Town or ANY area we fight npcs. Realistically speaking the xvarts near Brog and the Grotto die in the thousands every tendays in game, where are more coming from? You need to apply some extra suspension of disbelief because this isn't PnP where the dm can just say hell yeah burn it all and then just scribble poorly (some insights to my pnp experiences) on some grid paper to make the next area.

I agree that monsters on the surface are confined to raids only, and they can only end in one way.

I'd also say that hostility to any kind of monster results in surface ganks by surfacers against monsters, not the other way round.

There is no "Goblin/Monster Town". Various PCs try to establish one. I suppose there's the sewers in greyport where one of the gobbos that left had bought a quarter. No npcs there, so there's technically no restrictions on pvp there at all.

If DMs are aware of all this, and are content with it, I guess that is important to know.

[Flower Power]

There's no "Goblin/Monster Town" because the developers have been trying to communicate for years to the playerbase that they do not want there to be one. We used to have all these little niche settlements down in the UD, and all it ended up doing was diluting the playerbase and making it so people never had to interact with anyone outside of their immediate circle if they didn't want to.

This was seen as undesirable from both a narrative and design perspective, so they got nuked and it was arguably the best thing that has ever happened to the Underdark (but to an extent, one of the worst things that ever ended up happening to the Surface since the advent of Outcasts has largely relegated Evil PCs largely to the Underdark/being Underdark adjacent.)

[Bunnysmack]

I think where a lot of the frustration, from a monster point of view, is if you cross the wrong people hard enough in Andunor...You have no where you can go. I mean, this isn't JUST a problem for Monsters though, Drow have the same issue. It's rough, admittedly, but at the same time the reverse can often be true for surfacers. If a surfacer gets outted as definitively evil, they will often be exiled/evicted/pariah'd from their settlement, and then that settlement will urge wherever they move to, to also kick them out.

Shy of losing in a major conflict RP, however, monsters in Andunor do just fine from what I've seen. They tend to look out for their tribe, and sometimes form larger coalitions of monster tribes to form an ever greater power block. They are far from marginalized, but they just don't have anywhere that they can be entirely free of people that don't look like them. Drow don't either, however, and by their lore they are one of the most xeno-phobic species in Toril. Rather than wish for the server situation that isn't present, I find there is a lot more enjoyment to be had from making the most out of the situation that IS at hand. Andunor works a lot better for creating RP avenues than people give it credit for.

[JoeKickAss]

This is beginning to miss the point (there is a multitude of development goals that could be pursued). The only thing everyone agrees strongly about is that monsters can be instakilled by 2/3 of the playerbase if they step out the underdark while the server has been clearly been built for something else in mind. It is also not a basis for the underdark RP, which is of course is possible within very fine limits.

There just needs a little thinking on what monsters (and drow) are in arelith, particularly in late game, in this new direction. How DMless surface-underdark conflict can be made fun, how future development can incorporate underdark races. That's not really controversial to anyone playing a monster lately.

[Itikar]

I don't want to be that guy, but sometimes people go to Underdark/Surface/Distant Shores/Cities and Planes just to tour areas and do some PvE on their monster or surfacer respectively. It is fine to have the risk of PvP when one crosses in neutral or enemy territory, but assuming every monster or surfacer does that just to raid is wrong imho. There are legit roleplay reasons to go to the Underdark or to the surface for non-hostile goals.

To assume monsters are always bent on raiding is frankly wrong. They do that, and it is a big draw for them to go topside, but it is reductive to lump every single time a monster goes topside into the raid cauldron.

[Bunnysmack]

I don't want to be that guy, but sometimes people go to Underdark/Surface/Distant Shores/Cities and Planes just to tour areas and do some PvE on their monster or surfacer respectively. It is fine to have the risk of PvP when one crosses in neutral or enemy territory, but assuming every monster or surfacer does that just to raid is wrong imho. There are legit roleplay reasons to go to the Underdark or to the surface for non-hostile goals.

To assume monsters are always bent on raiding is frankly wrong. They do that, and it is a big draw for them to go topside, but it is reductive to lump every single time a monster goes topside into the raid cauldron.

This is, actually, a really good point.

[Ninjimmy]

I mean... in response to the portal thing, how would it feel if there was an easy exit portal right outside Andunor?

As it stands, any Surfacers who want to raid need to travel pretty far and/or Lens out, it's really more of a parity thing. Plus, on the subject of burning a city to the ground, if we start to allow that sorta play you'd probably lose Andunor pretty quickly to players with a similar mindset and some torches.

Monsters have a difficult time raiding topside, Surfacers have a hard time raiding bottomside, it keeps the whole thing balanced.

Personally, I'd be in favour of more relaxed interactions for RP's sake and less kill-on-sight, but I can't really blame towns for not wanting monsters walking plainly through them like... that should at least require an invis and stealth mode to walk through a market place. Same way I'd expect any surfacer walking through Andunor to at least try and stealth it if they don't have a way to bluff their way through.

[chris a gogo]

This post has come about because three goblins went to Sibayad and explored the tombs then to get back had to run through the town invis to get to the only source portal.

While there two surface character came through the transition rested in front of said goblins and started buffing.
The goblins used the portal to minmir but one crashed so was slower to arrive.
Resulting in the two surface character then catching the goblin there(after over hearing that they planned to go there) shouting stop then killing it.

All fine one word rp is kind of the normal for surface to monster interactions, but the point is this is the only way for the goblins to leave the area other than paying 2.5k each to do so.

The most simple solution would be to change the other portal near Sibayad into a source portal, this way when monsters or anyone wants to leave the area they don't have to run through the town and cross servers also wouldn't have to let players looking for PvP sleep and buff up in front of them directly on top of a server transitions.

[Skarain]

My few cents.

I play monster PC's and I am fine the way things are. Some places are more dangerous. Sibayad definitely became a lot more dangerous with the rule change. Invisibility + stealth both sides of the transition will account to the change. More caution and atmospheric use of stealth even if skill is nonexistant would do well to portray the change in environment. The fact that the goblins plans were heard speaks for itself. Sad to hear of the crash but things happen.

And I mean, the goblin did run. For an obvious surface elf, gnome or dearf, the treatment migth be similiar in the dark.

Moving the portal will change nothing. If anything, the exit portal becomes a frequent place to camp for monster visitors since a portal on that side is more convenient to camp. You do not lose your buffs when moving between the city and the portal.

If anything, more interaction from the running and attacking party, and willingness to give the other player an "out" would go a long way. So the problem is more in the server culture of engagement than placement of portals.

[chris a gogo]

It's more the fact that the only portal is directly across a server transition.

So if you engage there you will be quickly accused of camping and in fact it's far easier to camp it as any monster has to use that portal... if your non monster you can use the one in the town and don't have to stand there unbuffed.

Just swap them around make the one on the distant shores the source portal and the one at the docks a normal one.
I mean why is the source portal even there it's right next to the boat.

For the record not the danger i mind it's the location next to a cross server transition it's a bad location for any encounter.

[Ninjimmy]

^ I think I agree with Skarain, we have a particularly weird attitude towards monster PCs IMO where it's not exactly ENCOURAGED to one line kill them but to treat them in a way that isn't murder happy when playing a surfacer runs the risk of not treating them the way we're advised to and it can be difficult to know where the line is.

I completely understand why a player would err on the side of killing as we're so regularly instructed that monsters must be treated as monsters and running them out of town or giving them an out seems counter to that. Not to mention the fact PvP usually favours whoever swings first. So I'd rather outs were RPed rather than insta PVP.

It's kind of a shame about the crashing but I'm remembering what it's like when a surfacer goes down to the UD and it's not as though Andunor has a load of source portals you can use. If you go into hostile territory you gotta expect to need to lens out.

[chris a gogo]

Comparing Cordor to Andunor would be a fair one both are the main cities, and in doing so it would be a good comparison to make.

But you are ignoring the main issue of where the portal is...if you go to the underdark you run the risk of pvp.
But in the UD there are source portals all over the place and if you get attacked at one of them then your just unlucky as you picked the wrong one to go to.

Same for the surface if your from the UD and traveling around there are source portals in various locations that you can walk to and use.

Distant shores Sibayad area doesn't have one unless your a non monster then you can use the one in the town.
As i said above the location of the only possible portal means your standing next to a server transition any pvp there will have people screaming camping all over the forums.
Moving it would mean characters would arrive at the portal by land or via portal buffed or at least prepared this means that you don't get silly ooc actions.
Like sleeping infront of your intended victims.
Having to ignore possible enemies as they have just crossed servers so you don't get done for camping transitions.

[Ninjimmy]

Hmmm, are there really NO source portals in Sibayad besides the nexus portal? Not even some within the dungeons?

That seems unlikely but if so then yeah, I'd agree it could probably use one somewhere like the Oasis.

[-XXX-]

Hmmm, are there really NO source portals in Sibayad besides the nexus portal? Not even some within the dungeons?

There's one in the orclands

[Itikar]

Hmmm, are there really NO source portals in Sibayad besides the nexus portal? Not even some within the dungeons?

That seems unlikely but if so then yeah, I'd agree it could probably use one somewhere like the Oasis.

I know of at least two, not including the orclands mentioned above.

The tombs could use source portals though.