Whirlwind and parry

[Archnon]

So I completely understand why this was done. Getting a +5 attack and +20 damage on whirlwind is insane and cheese g the system a bit hard. However, even without the damage, whirlwind is really useful for parry builds as it lets them flesh out there apr a bit and hit the enemies in the group that don't melee attack, which is a lot. I had no idea how many archer and mage mobs there are until I built a parry character. My point is that this is a bigger nerf than just correcting the cheesy bonus damage and ab. Is it possible to allow whirlwind during parry but at a cost of reducing the AB and damage. Obviously this is more work but it would bring it more in line with how it is used on non parry builds.

[AstralUniverse]

Parry mode is basically the character standing in place (a part of swift short side steps I guess) and fending off one enemy very well, defensively while exploiting their swings against them in timely attacks. It makes absolutely zero sense to be able to whirlwind while doing that, as it is the very opposite action.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

"WHIRLWIND PARRYOVERDRIVE"

Honestly being able to just full on run and use healing kits with IE makes less sense to me. Expertise is supposed to be actively fighting in a way that lowers your offense for defense. You are not actively fighting when full on running or using kits. Parrying while doing whirlwind makes more sense than that.

So what really matters: "is it balanced?"

[Baron Saturday]

It sounds to me like you're trying to have parry be an "always on" sort of thing, which is really not what it's intended for. It's a very situational skill - if you're dealing with archers and mages, just turn it off.

[Kenji]

"WHIRLWIND PARRYOVERDRIVE"

Honestly being able to just full on run and use healing kits with IE makes less sense to me. Expertise is supposed to be actively fighting in a way that lowers your offense for defense. You are not actively fighting when full on running or using kits. Parrying while doing whirlwind makes more sense than that.

So what really matters: "is it balanced?"

Here's the thing: A character is flat-footed when using healing kits, thus oftentimes reducing its effective AC by way more than what IE can cover, even if that doesn't show up on the character sheet.

For low AB/level mobs, the IE might make a difference, but anything beyond that will be inviting extra Sneak Attacks and a full flurry of attacks being landed. This is why most when in combat would rather be using heal potions and taking the AoO rather than flat-footing themselves with healing kits.

I digress, Parry Mode's extra AB and damage were deemed both counter-intuitive and too much of a buff when used in tandem with Whirlwind.

[AstralUniverse]

Honestly being able to just full on run and use healing kits with IE makes less sense to me. Expertise is supposed to be actively fighting in a way that lowers your offense for defense. You are not actively fighting when full on running or using kits. Parrying while doing whirlwind makes more sense than that.

You're mixing up unrelated stuff. I think what bothers you in a nutshell is actually that you get to use IE and keep the ac while flat-footed. What you're doing that got your flat-footed (healing kits? lag? admiring the waterfalls in Minmir?) is irrelevant. And this is a different unrelated discussion. Let me tell you that some things in this game are so deep in the Balance and in the 20yo game that they will remain counter-logic and that's what we got.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Honestly being able to just full on run and use healing kits with IE makes less sense to me. Expertise is supposed to be actively fighting in a way that lowers your offense for defense. You are not actively fighting when full on running or using kits. Parrying while doing whirlwind makes more sense than that.

You're mixing up unrelated stuff. I think what bothers you in a nutshell is actually that you get to use IE and keep the ac while flat-footed. What you're doing that got your flat-footed (healing kits? lag? admiring the waterfalls in Minmir?) is irrelevant. And this is a different unrelated discussion. Let me tell you that some things in this game are so deep in the Balance and in the 20yo game that they will remain counter-logic and that's what we got.

IE was not toggle 20 years ago, if yoi eere not actively locked on a target, expertise would not be one.

Anyways it's all digress; if it whirlwind while parry was too strong, then it was too strong.

[Archnon]

"WHIRLWIND PARRYOVERDRIVE"

Honestly being able to just full on run and use healing kits with IE makes less sense to me. Expertise is supposed to be actively fighting in a way that lowers your offense for defense. You are not actively fighting when full on running or using kits. Parrying while doing whirlwind makes more sense than that.

So what really matters: "is it balanced?"

Here's the thing: A character is flat-footed when using healing kits, thus oftentimes reducing its effective AC by way more than what IE can cover, even if that doesn't show up on the character sheet.

For low AB/level mobs, the IE might make a difference, but anything beyond that will be inviting extra Sneak Attacks and a full flurry of attacks being landed. This is why most when in combat would rather be using heal potions and taking the AoO rather than flat-footing themselves with healing kits.

I digress, Parry Mode's extra AB and damage were deemed both counter-intuitive and too much of a buff when used in tandem with Whirlwind.

Thanks for the response and clarification Kenji. I honestly totally respect this and completely agree. Honestly, the +5 attack is kind of nuts and OP. It almost seems like that should scale with level sort of like the parry AC does. Something where you can cap out at +5 at level 25 with enough parry investment. It is also a bit crazy that you can invest 1 in parry, throw it on and whirlwind for an almost secure hit each time. That is cheese extraordinaire and an abuse and in that sense, justifies the change.

The damage I think scales better given the investment that you need to make to be successful, which is full gear+dex. As it stands, your parry damage is really just offsetting your strength damage and at the same time it runs into the problem of being spread out over the full npc mob, much like circle kick. The result is you whack harder but kill a lot slower, though I am sure that it does not play nice with div dips as far as balance is concerned.

However, I would still like to say that it would be nice to see an option of still using whirlwind while in parry especially given that parry gets spread out so thin around you. You cannot target a single character to parry until dead. And yes, as it was pointed out, it is a situational tool and I am asking for it to be used in more situations. However, it is a large investment on a character to do it right and can actually represent a fundamental RP decision in terms of fighting style.

Ultimately, I'm suggesting that other alternatives get looked at to allow whirlwind during parry for those that really want to make it a core part of their fighting style even in crowded npc areas, for example:
1.) Scaling the +5 AB across levels to max at level 20 or 25 and requiring parry investment in core ranks to get there, like parry AC. This would solve the low level cheese problem. Honestly, this should probably be done no matter the decision.
2.) Allow whirlwind with a debuff to damage and ab and during parry attacks. Essentially, you can do it just like normal between parrys, but you don't get those benefits.

However, I totally respect that you all are swamped and the squeaky wheel gets the grease and even with this change, parry is in a pretty good place, so perhaps just something to keep in mind far down the road. Thanks for the amazing work on all these cool specialty mechanics. We all truly appreciate the investment you and the other devs put in to make this game more interesting and fun!

[Nitro]

Being allowed to whirlwind in parry sounds like keeping your cake and also eating it. Then you get a free way to attack everyone around you while in a defensive stance that doesn't normally allow you to attack without first leaving the stance. It'd be weird both from a balance and consistency perspective.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Being allowed to whirlwind in parry sounds like keeping your cake and also eating it. Then you get a free way to attack everyone around you while in a defensive stance that doesn't normally allow you to attack without first leaving the stance. It'd be weird both from a balance and consistency perspective.

Consistency wise thats what happens eveey time we run around in IE without actively fighting something; having and eating the cake, so I am not a fan of the consistency argument, but I am a fan of the balance argument.

[Baron Saturday]

Being allowed to whirlwind in parry sounds like keeping your cake and also eating it. Then you get a free way to attack everyone around you while in a defensive stance that doesn't normally allow you to attack without first leaving the stance. It'd be weird both from a balance and consistency perspective.

Consistency wise thats what happens eveey time we run around in IE without actively fighting something; having and eating the cake, so I am not a fan of the consistency argument, but I am a fan of the balance argument.

There's a difference between logical and consistent. Healing yourself with expertise on isn't logical, but it doesn't break the rules of expertise (namely, that all attacks are made at a penalty), therefore it is consistent. If there was a way to, say, cast IGMS with expertise on, thereby ignoring the attack penalty, that would be inconsistent.

That's why using whirlwind with parry active is inconsistent - it breaks the rules of parry that prevents the user from actively attacking while the mode is on.

[Tarkus the dog]

Hail and well met. Occasional WM player here:

Using healing kits on yourself in IE = You get flatfooted, lose half your AC and die.

Being able to whirlwind attack in parry mode = You run around with a scythe one-shoting everything.

However IE not being vanilla IS quite strong, but I feel like on servers like Arelith it is necessary.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Being allowed to whirlwind in parry sounds like keeping your cake and also eating it. Then you get a free way to attack everyone around you while in a defensive stance that doesn't normally allow you to attack without first leaving the stance. It'd be weird both from a balance and consistency perspective.

Consistency wise thats what happens eveey time we run around in IE without actively fighting something; having and eating the cake, so I am not a fan of the consistency argument, but I am a fan of the balance argument.

There's a difference between logical and consistent. Healing yourself with expertise on isn't logical, but it doesn't break the rules of expertise (namely, that all attacks are made at a penalty), therefore it is consistent. If there was a way to, say, cast IGMS with expertise on, thereby ignoring the attack penalty, that would be inconsistent.

That's why using whirlwind with parry active is inconsistent - it breaks the rules of parry that prevents the user from actively attacking while the mode is on.

It does break the rules of expertise prior to when we scripted it to constantly on as a toggle which requires you to actaully be using attacks to that suffer ab penalty, or running through a dungeon to lure up all undead with IE on as a rogue. These are great QoL and I think they should stay, but its free ac while doing an action that requires no ab which is not how it works in base NWN nor PnP DnD. We keep it, because the QoL makes the game more fun and it's not as brocken as IGMS with expertise on, but less brocken does nit mean less consistent. That's a reflection of balance, not consistency.

[Drowboy]

Uhhhh. I'm actually pretty sure sticky combat modes are a Beamdog thing?

[Nitro]

Arelith introduced sticky combat modes a long, looong time before EE rolled around.

But it's a poor comparison. A more apt comparison would be if you could use Whirlwind attack at full AB while also maintaining the defensive bonuses of Expertise, that's what getting to whirlwind attack in parry is. It's a complete bypass of the limitations of parry mode.

[Archnon]

So, I feel like I never intended to make this about expertise, but lets talk about it if you really want to. Balance is all about what you lose, what you gain, how much you have to invest, and what counters are out there.

So:
Expertise
-Straight trade, AB for AC..... You still get all your attacks per round, you can use whirlwind (at reduced AB), you can target an opponent (this is important), you can hit archers, mages, etc.
-Cost: 13 int and 1-2 pre-epic feats.

Parry
-You gain +5 ab and if you do it right, around +20 damage.
-Costs: This is actually pretty significant if you think about it. the average AB of players on the server is, lets say 48. with an average roll of 10, so 58. That means you need to match their attack roll with your parry skill +10 to respond 50% of the time. 58 parry means dex build (14 parry) + skills (33 parry) + gear or ESF parry. With the gear that is out there, you can hit 80 parry but you are gearing for it across the board, leaving less room for other skills and importantly saves. It can't be done effectively on a non-dex build.

That is just to make an attack! Then your AB still has to break their AC, granted you get +5 AB making it a bit easier.

Now in the current meta, people sit in IE so really you need less but you are going to need that ab bonus to hit.

So, gear+skill+dex build+potentially an epic feat. That is just the startup costs. You can't attack mages. You can't attack archers or dart throwers or anything like that (lots and lots of npcs). You are capped at 3 attacks per round. The remaining attacks that come at you go straight to your AC. Also, did i mention you can't sit in expertise. That means that your AC is under average compared to the current meta. Oh also, you can't heal kit, unlike expertise. Oh, also you can't target people. You bounce around like circle kick in a group, spreading damage around and getting hit more because your AC isn't getting the expertise bonus.

For expertise, there are no counters except maybe have a higher AB. For parry there are a ton. For example, have more than 3 attacks per round! Or be an archer. Or a mage.

I completely agree that having the bonus AB and damage on whirlwind is cheezin it. Especially if people are putting in 1 point and just kicking whirlwind every round for the bonus AB. I also think that parry ab bonus should scale by level. However, cutting of whirlwind entirely is a lot. Especially given that most balance considerations are PVP. In that instance, without the AB and damage when you whirl, it isn't that effective. It constitutes a single extra attack per round in 1v1 pvp. That is still just 4 attacks when most builds are hitting 5 or more with haste. The real benefit here is pve and being able to target larger groups a little more effectively, especially considering you are already spreading your damage around. To me, that is more qol than balance consideration.

[Baron Saturday]

I absolutely agree that parry is quite lackluster and overly situational for the investment it requires.

[Kenji]

... You can't attack mages. You can't attack archers or dart throwers or anything like that (lots and lots of npcs). You are capped at 3 attacks per round...

My question is why would one be in Parry mode when chasing after a caster or an archer rather than being in expertise mode, to begin with?

I honestly don't see the logic in this, please explain it to me. I'm not being sarcastic or contentious, I'm really curious if that +5 AB parry and extra 20 damage insta-attack for 1 attack will do better than 2 or 3 attacks in 1 flurry without the extra AB vs targets that usually have low AC (save for wound-up Div-Archers, wiz PMs, and Sorcadins with ~63AC)

If most of your PvP experiences are against the aforementioned targets with high AC, then the feedback will have some merit. However, from the last census, I'm inclined to believe they are not in the majority atm, except for Wizard/PMs, but those have a wide variety of builds and I can't say for certain if they all obtain high AC.

Edit: If we're also here to discuss how parry's investment isn't living up to the results, then it has more to do with base mechanics and how the interactions between attacks and parry play out than it being banked on Whirlwind Attack changes alone. This will warrant a different thread direction with a different discussion process.

[Archnon]

I honestly think the investment vs outcome is in a pretty good spot. I would scale tbe AB but that is it.


As far as why parry, let's break it down.

Let's say the average AB on the server is 50. This is high! but perhaps not high for melee based characters.
Let's say the average AC on the server is 55. Strength builds are closer to 50, dex builds are closer to 60.

Now Why Parry in PVP:
-assuming averages, which I don't think are that far off, you have a 75%-50%-25%-5%-75% chance to hit. That is 4 attacks per round + flurry for a bonus at full BAB
-Now, lets assume your opponent is in improved expertise (65AC), which is the meta for melee combat. You're chances to hit him drop to 25%-5%-5%-5%-25% (you would need a roll of 15). That means only 2 of your attacks are really worthwhile.
-Now, lets put you in parry. That means +5AB but only 3 attacks. So, 50%-25%-5%. So unless you are fishing for crits, parry is always better.
-Now, I don't know but it is possible that parry will use the full BAB from haste if you have 5 open attacks. I would need to test that but that would be 50%-50%-5%
-Okay, lets pretend both characters have whirlwind basic, ie, at the non-parry bab. That means they both just get one more 25% attack. (But lets be honest, whirlwind wasn't made for 1v1)
-You would never approach pvp with a mage or archer in parry, even with whirlwind available.

Now, Why Parry and Whirlwind in PVE:
So the answer to your question of why approach low AC targets with parry is simply about damage. +20 damage on a dex build is huge. Getting damage on dex is tough, especially that you need to dedicate some space to Con thanks to timestop. That means you 1.) heavy gear str (or int for swash) 2.) div dip for divine might 3.) SD so you can consistently sneak 4.) Rangers with Bane 5.) SS imbues or ..... 6.) Run around in parry.

Even with archers/mages in a group, odds are I start in parry because otherwise it takes me ages to kill. Also, more often than not, those melees are doing more damage to me than the archers (broketooth fanatics are ridiculous at level 14). Having a vanilla whirlwind is pure QOL in that situation.

Also, lets keep in mind what still works with whirlwind, afaik:
1.) SS imbues
2.) Swash int damage
3.) Hex imbues (need to test)
4.) Barb rage damage
5.) Divine Might
6.) Poisons
7.) Sneak attacks (need to test, SD players can help me out here)
8.) Bladethirst

And I can honestly respect disabling the bonus AB and damage on parry just for the whirl.

Now having parry stack with any of these damage sources can lead to some really heavy dex damage, which is why i get it is risky. But yeah, that is just my case. Like I said the last time, I think you guys do great work. I think there is a great eye to balance on the server now and I know it is a serious collective effort amongst y'all. However, as I level up my parry build, this was a heavy blow.

[Kenji]

1.) SS imbues
2.) Swash int damage
3.) Hex imbues (need to test)
4.) Barb rage damage
5.) Divine Might
6.) Poisons
7.) Sneak attacks (need to test, SD players can help me out here)
8.) Bladethirst

These can also be used in tandem with the Parry Mode (without disabling it sometimes), and then combo'd with whirlwind attack pre-change. The metric and comparison of which to determine the effectiveness of whirlwind attack in parry mode aren't accurately represented with this list of effects. (Note on SS taking Parry, it might not seem as effective since SS gets free Shield AC on the off-hand, but they do have enough skill points to take Parry and, consequently, the SS WM builds can indeed utilize Parry without losing as much in that sense, except for imbues. But then you'd be trading offensive capabilities for defensive purposes. Another reason to disable WW while in parry mode so it disallows such an unhealthy combo)

The more adequate comparison is what combat mode the whirlwind attack can be used with pre-change:
Parry - Increased AB by 5 and up to 20 extra damage
Expertise - lowered AB by 5 or 10
Flurry of Blows - lowered AB by 2, also likely to remove a flurry or an entire round of attacks for monk's UBAB, hence WW is almost a trap mode for monks save for a few occasions such as being knocked down.
Defensive Casting - this is surprisingly one of the more, shall we say, adequate argument to be had about enabling WW while in parry mode.

Though to be honest, disabling WW while in parry mode was a relatively quick fix to not enabling unhealthy dex builds that are capable of using parry mode to ward off some high AB attacks, still maintain high AC to fend off the remaining attacks, counter some of those attacks with good riposte damage, and then another active AoE damage on-demand that is further buffed by Parry mode.

If the goal of this feedback here is to allow WW to be used with Parry mode again, but without the bonuses, I believe that is something to be considered. But I can't promise any changes to that any time Soon™ as it'll require internal discussions with the team and not just on my decision alone.

[Archnon]

Totally respectable response and all I am asking. Thanks for listening!

[TimeAdept]

You can't WWA sneaks even if you're stealthed before doing them, btw.

[Archnon]

You can't WWA sneaks even if you're stealthed before doing them, btw.

What about with your shadow drawing aggro? I will gladly update my post if this is true.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

1.) SS imbues
2.) Swash int damage
3.) Hex imbues (need to test)
4.) Barb rage damage
5.) Divine Might
6.) Poisons
7.) Sneak attacks (need to test, SD players can help me out here)
8.) Bladethirst

These can also be used in tandem with the Parry Mode (without disabling it sometimes), and then combo'd with whirlwind attack pre-change. The metric and comparison of which to determine the effectiveness of whirlwind attack in parry mode aren't accurately represented with this list of effects. (Note on SS taking Parry, it might not seem as effective since SS gets free Shield AC on the off-hand, but they do have enough skill points to take Parry and, consequently, the SS WM builds can indeed utilize Parry without losing as much in that sense, except for imbues. But then you'd be trading offensive capabilities for defensive purposes. Another reason to disable WW while in parry mode so it disallows such an unhealthy combo)

The more adequate comparison is what combat mode the whirlwind attack can be used with pre-change:
Parry - Increased AB by 5 and up to 20 extra damage
Expertise - lowered AB by 5 or 10
Flurry of Blows - lowered AB by 2, also likely to remove a flurry or an entire round of attacks for monk's UBAB, hence WW is almost a trap mode for monks save for a few occasions such as being knocked down.
Defensive Casting - this is surprisingly one of the more, shall we say, adequate argument to be had about enabling WW while in parry mode.

Though to be honest, disabling WW while in parry mode was a relatively quick fix to not enabling unhealthy dex builds that are capable of using parry mode to ward off some high AB attacks, still maintain high AC to fend off the remaining attacks, counter some of those attacks with good riposte damage, and then another active AoE damage on-demand that is further buffed by Parry mode.

If the goal of this feedback here is to allow WW to be used with Parry mode again, but without the bonuses, I believe that is something to be considered. But I can't promise any changes to that any time Soon™ as it'll require internal discussions with the team and not just on my decision alone.

Thanks for the response; I honestly had str 2 hander parry whirlwind memes in mind, not dex characters. So just removing bonus to whirlwind might work, but I understand that needs both approval (and balance check) along with some potentially tedious code work that puts unnecessary load on the server.

[TimeAdept]

You can't WWA sneaks even if you're stealthed before doing them, btw.

What about with your shadow drawing aggro? I will gladly update my post if this is true.

WWA specifically disallows sneak attacks, it's a real shame.