Grouping Dweomercrafting Enchantment Properties

[Pala]

Hi all,

The Dweomercrafting system is great.

It would be even better if instead of having to enchant each property one-by-one, we could add them in a group, and then roll them as one. Same chances and costs for each attempted enchantment in the queue, but far less time spent enchanting.

I'm not a coder and I'm unsure if this is possible or not, or would take a lot of time to change. If it's possible, it would be a great quality of life improvement.

It would be great to hear everyone's thoughts.

All the best,


Pala.

[jomonog]

Seconded, this would be so good if it can be done. Its pretty painful at the moment having to navigate so many menus so anything to speed up me blowing stuff up and feeding gold to the basin would be awesome.

[Fargreze]

I can't help but agree. I feel bad inflicting such a chore as dweomercrafting on anyone, even for gold. It is a positively stoneage element on a server bursting with new areas and classes and other impressive new content.

Creating a hard 5% item takes more than 20 long sequences of menu commands (multiple rolls can fail even before the final one) and that's just the average, excluding the time it takes for godsave to recharge, just to get past the penultimate (soft 5%) stage on one item. I would argue that hours of menuing with a full inventory of belts is not gameplay, nor is it RP. The problem cannot be overstated: stats and skills define the mechanical character, and the system for acquiring these attributes is painful to utilise. Unfortunately, it is not an optional undertaking if one wants to be remotely robust against DC spells, opposed detection rolls and similar checks, or to have access to important scrolls. In my opinion, this makes the need for quality of life improvements to the dweomer system more urgent than some few hardcore players might have you believe.

Though the ability to customize gear is a great feature, in its current form it is easily the least enjoyable part of making one's character mechanically sound - if we must gamble for good gear, please let it not be so time-consuming and mind-numbingly repetitive. There is a common misconception that complete gearing via dweomercraft is a process that makes you more powerful than necessary, and should only be of any interest to the most hardcore players; but this system is what gives a character the minimum numbers to be viable, up into the narrow range where swift death at the hands of a knowledgeable opponent is not quite as likely. Characters without the Crafting Mastery points to spare must even put their friends and allies through this process. Everything that is enjoyable and interactive about the normal crafting system is missing from dweomercraft.

If dweomercrafting appears to be popular, it is because it is necessary, not because it is remotely enjoyable as it stands. Changes to dweomercrafting would improve the server for absolutely everyone. Grouping a set of properties into just one easily repeatable roll would be a massive step in the right direction.

[Aodh Lazuli]

Perhaps it would be a good option to be able to save combinations of properties to apply.

[Dalenger]

I've set up autoclickers before to do most of the button pressing and clicking for me, while I read or surf my phone and slowly watch my bank account count down to zero. I am 100% in favor of something like this.

[Garvik]

This would be such an awesome QoL improvement. Cannot +1 this enough.

[AstralUniverse]

It would save a lot of time, if there was an option to make a preset, even just one, to select the enchantments by order (it will not show odds or costs past the first roll because they are unknown of course) and apply the rolls by the given order until:
1) the sequence is complete successfully
2) it fails somewhere on the way, in one of the automatic rolls, and there's no longer an item in the basin.
3) the PC runs out of gold.

Something like that, then we can add in a list of enchantments, put items in the basin and press Load Preset and display the final outcome in the log (failure or success, yes/no godsave, total gold spent, exp if lost).

[Pala]

-

Appreciate the input, and well said!

[TheRagingGoblin]

It would save a lot of time, if there was an option to make a preset, even just one, to select the enchantments by order (it will not show odds or costs past the first roll because they are unknown of course) and apply the rolls by the given order until:
1) the sequence is complete successfully
2) it fails somewhere on the way, in one of the automatic rolls, and there's no longer an item in the basin.
3) the PC runs out of gold.

Something like that, then we can add in a list of enchantments, put items in the basin and press Load Preset and display the final outcome in the log (failure or success, yes/no godsave, total gold spent, exp if lost).

Have it accept parameters as a string, to iterate through in order, until it completely succeeds or meets a failure condition.

Can have this string entered then an option selected at the basin to use it.

Some parameters (skills come to mind) would require a value to be accepted.

Ie,

-discipline 2 -spellcraft 2 -lore 2 -str -con

Attempts discipline +2, spellcraft +2 lore +2, strength then con.

Using this an enchanter could open the basin menu, paste the string, then select the relevant option. If it's like crafting by ID it'd not require pasting the string every time the menu option is selected.

[Xerah]

It's certainly possible and would be more ideal as well, but someone actually has to do it since it's a significant amount of scripting that likely isn't worth the zots.

There is also the question if "gambling" is even good for the server or if the entire system should be reworked.

[TimeAdept]

The 5% gamble provides a significant cash and XP sink to the server that would be greatly deleterious for the server to lose. That money wouldn't go anywhere and PCs would find themselve sin possession of vast quantities more wealth. In many cases the 5%ing is also removing other items from circulation along with the XP and gold invested. The inherent risk also means that you're not likely to ever see a double 5% unless you're incredible ridiculously lucky or your name is Eters.

[Fargreze]

The 5% gamble provides a significant cash and XP sink to the server that would be greatly deleterious for the server to lose. That money wouldn't go anywhere and PCs would find themselve sin possession of vast quantities more wealth. In many cases the 5%ing is also removing other items from circulation along with the XP and gold invested. The inherent risk also means that you're not likely to ever see a double 5% unless you're incredible ridiculously lucky or your name is Eters.

Replying to the above

I understand your points, but it seems you think that removing or reworking dweomercrafting also means there cannot be any kind of replacement - there certainly should be, so I think your objections are misplaced. Any replacement system would also be a cash sink (gear will never be free); if removing items from circulation is also a goal, I don't see why there couldn't be an "item sacrifice" system, which would allow you to sacrifice weaker or outdated gear in place of gold to add properties to new items (maybe this also costs XP). These are just spitball ideas on "day 1". I say this fully mindful of the fact that someone would have to create a new system, and it would be up to their discretion to decide what is feasible: I am only stressing that it would have several positive effects on the server (which I will go on to describe).

Minor point: do you think people dweomer continuously, even after they're geared? No, they amass wealth even now. As an aside, this is also not the place to argue over hoarding of shops and properties - any such form of property wealth on Arelith requires wrapping your life around the server, and I don't think that's healthy. That will be a recurring point in this post. So why would more item-based (gear) wealth in the hands of the average player be a bad thing, exactly? My opinion is that the server cannot be balanced around the double 5% anyway (1/400 chance? come on, now...), and I would gladly give up that level of gear power in favour of a streamlined, more rapid gearing system.

The cultural effects of the dweomercraft system

This is something of a long post, but I went into detail because I believe the current dweomercraft system shapes the server culture in more ways than may be immediately apparent. The purpose of this post is to point out the dormant value of altering the dweomercrafting system. Many of these potential benefits are downstream effects on the RP culture, which may be surprising to players who see RP and mechanics as segregated elements. So, let's get into it.

The cost of gearing is high - it takes huge amounts of time per character, and more than a little knowledge. Firstly, this only encourages holding onto "forever characters"; if getting geared is a pain, why opt to do it more than once? I would rather see the average character get over the gear-wealth barrier quickly, and not just because it would also help reduce the appeal of hoarding wealth. Let other gold-sinks consume the wealth of the server, not the one system that is also a prerequisite for surviving PvP gear-check gimmicks. Changes here will not make anyone a god, but only level the playing field between those with seemingly endless time (unhealthy amounts of time? more on this later) and those with less. PvP still requires a lot of skill even after glaring weaknesses are plugged by competent gearing. The state of things now is that hard grinders are properly prepared for PvP, and "forever characters", but nobody else.

Secondly, why should the cost of obtaining viable equipment be so much higher than the gold income of a typical character? We have seen the ugly solutions: obsessive circlegrinding of select writs and areas, plus solo looping of areas with runic chests, so often that a timer system has been implemented. Just recently, level 30s were denied the ability to hire henchmen (the root cause is the same). The current systems clearly motivate level 30s to solo runic dungeons or otherwise grind as close to alone as possible, instead of RP'ing in a group, on an RP server. This is totally counterproductive, and decreasing the amount of gold available to a casual player (through nerfing of such things as scroll drop rates) only makes this worse. At any rate, lowering the cost of creating good equipment will diminish these habits by making them unnecessary, and help increase the competitiveness support-type characters, or low AC characters, who will always have to split discovered gold or the earnings from a discovered rune.

If you want to change the server culture, recognize the playstyles that have been incentivized, and alter the game in response - not with band-aids, but by recognizing them as a natural result of the dweomercraft system (and of runes). Many players, including myself, would be happier in a world where run-grinding was not so logical. One possible solution might be to apply the Radiant Heart ring system to the writ system at large, offering high-end gear to players who complete a variety of challenges on their character. This would direct more players to the new areas and dungeons, encouraging careful group-play and exploration over looping of familiar, efficient grinds. Tying gear to completion of content is a tried-and-true classic MMO system.

A demon (or devil, or celestial, pick your alignment) that needs slaying

Finally, the worst part: Dweomercraft is a Skinner box. Here's the short version. You can train a rat to press a lever by reinforcing that behaviour, giving the rat food immediately after a press (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOgowRy2WC0). But what happens if, after establishing that reward motivation, the food only appears sometimes? The rat will press the lever rapidly. Studies of that kind have been applied to the issue of gambling addiction. Players on Arelith want finished gear, but they have no idea when the 5% roll will succeed. So they rush around and gather resources to keep pressing the button in hopes of success. The same can be said of the epic sacrifice system - it has driven some susceptible players to suffer through hundreds of hours of Gift of Humility grinding. This is wrong, and definitely not an incentive any RP server should want to preserve. I cannot be the only one who has encountered players who put unhealthy hours into the server, and for the wrong reasons.

Whatever ideas you might have about limiting the availability of certain subraces and gifts, this not the way to do it (I know the team has spoken in the past about a rework - quite right! Just as they were right to remove Humility; I believe they have sensed the problems that I have described). The systems create the exact psychological pressure present in the addictive, rightly hated gacha games. Clearly neither the Reward or Dweomercraft systems were intended to have these effects, but they are the root of more than one evil. The 1d20 was designed to be rolled, its consequences accepted, and for the fun to move on. Spending tens, hundreds of hours trying to meet the conditions just to pray for a 20 (5%) is not fun. It is no wonder everybody seems to be in such a hurry these days - a quick exchange of words, then onto the run-grinding! This is the culprit; this is your atmosphere killer.

A point for the PvPers: most characters don't reach the level of gearing necessary to gain informative experience from mechanical PvP, should it arise, until hundreds of hours in. At that point, some knowledgeable players experience the theoretical peak around which the server is balanced, and few others. The correlation between mechanical power and hours played on one character is very high, but a better gearing system would allow a competent player to get "up and running" on a new character in less time, and have a sporting chance against serious characters by mid-epics. I think this would be for the good of RP, too. Not only could they relax on the economic speedrunning a little bit, it would probably increase the willingness of the average player to take risks alone and go along for the ride.

In conclusion...

For anyone who has read this far, thanks. Guldorand is coming, I love the Bard update, the new armors are awesome, and so on, and so on. So much good is happening on the server, I found myself wondering why I wasn't enjoying all of this stuff the way I know I should. I believe it is because of this hidden demon that needs slaying, which has wrapped its tendrils around everything (okay, it's a Lovecraftian monster, whatever), for whoever has the guts to try it.

-Fargreze

[Pala]

It's certainly possible and would be more ideal as well, but someone actually has to do it since it's a significant amount of scripting that likely isn't worth the zots.

There is also the question if "gambling" is even good for the server or if the entire system should be reworked.

I mean, if we're being completely open to large-scale change, I echo a lot of what Fargreze said.

The gambling/5% system feels outdated, and it has negative consequences. The system locks players out of being able to gear properly (for example, getting your stats capped, bolstering some skills, and adding in some Uni saves), and especially to be competitive in PvP. This is the case even if a player is efficient at grinding gold, and has enchanters to help them.

At this point in the server's life cycle, if we're going by the general narrative on the forums and on Discord, I think it's self-evident that people want the most out of their builds. But, the truth is, most people won't ever see how their builds can actually perform given the correct gearing, which is usually locked behind 5% basin rolls across multiple gear pieces.

I think if the 5%/basin system was overhauled - but, importantly, remain balanced - it would generally improve QoL for everyone, allowing people to not worry about the tedium of grinding for gold only to then be at the mercy of RNG. Gearing would be easier, PvP would be more balanced/skilled, and RP would thrive as a result.

[AstralUniverse]

The 5% gamble provides a significant cash and XP sink to the server that would be greatly deleterious for the server to lose. That money wouldn't go anywhere and PCs would find themselve sin possession of vast quantities more wealth. In many cases the 5%ing is also removing other items from circulation along with the XP and gold invested. The inherent risk also means that you're not likely to ever see a double 5% unless you're incredible ridiculously lucky or your name is Eters.

I very much agree with that. We dont have any relevant gold sink to replace this gamble aspect of the game, and I also maybe play here too long and not enough elsewhere but I cant even imagine a different gold sink which isnt gambling based that will occupy the 5% items nich.

[CNS]

You can always work out the expected cost based on probability and charge that, or that + 5-10% for the convience.

Some people will make out better (the unlucky ones in the current system) some will make out worse (the lucky ones) but ultimately the exact same amount of gold will leave the system (maybe even more if you have the 5-10% surcharge and its no unlikely more people will engage with the system if it simply has the cost and not a very long and boring grind as well).

[jomonog]

Having the option to pay a fixed fee as an option instead of gambling on a 5% roll would be a pretty easy solution really. Still provides the same gold sink and takes away the gambling element for those who would prefer to spend their time raising the gold through adventuring or other means instead of the soul destroying pokie machine basin grind.

The formula would be reasonably easy as stated above to provide an equivalent gold sink - just 20 x the hard 5% roll value plus some sort of fixed premium to approximate the value of the materials involved in the base item.

[mjones3]

Its not the same as the gamble. I tried over 45 times on a single 5% roll for a weapon and have gotten lucky with other items on the first time.

It would also make 5% masterly damask items appear everywhere since a HUGE factor on them is the time it takes to create the item. You need to spend approximately 550 crafting points each.

I think just letting you adjust it yourself like you can the portals with portal ord would be enough to make enchanting less grueling. You could set skills to 2 and have the 4 you want at the start.

[CNS]

You could always require 14 (slightly over the 50% expected success line) of the base item for a hard 5% along with the cost of all 14.

You raise a good point after all.

[jomonog]

I understand the concern if a guaranteed hard 5% can be purchased that this may take away the time sink that also acts as a limiter on the number of such items. However there would still be a time sink required to grind the gold to pay for the hard 5% (which is effectively longer now as well given recent gold nerf). It just moves some of the time sink from boring stuff like gathering materials, praying for full piety, and crafting to more interesting time sink (at least for me) of adventuring and exploring.

[mjones3]

Golds easier and faster to get than crafting points. To get the crafting points required for 10 masterly damask items you would take a total of about 226 hours for crafting points to reset assuming 60 and every point spends.

You can get 25-30k in about an hour if you grind the right areas and can solo it easy. That's enough time to get almost 3 million assuming you get 0 items of high value that can be sold.

Even if you're using base value (You should since player pricing fluctuates) to determine the gold value 14 M-damask weapons are worth less than 1 million, only 950,320. You'd have to more than triple the suggested 14 item base value to require the same amount of time needed to wait.

[jomonog]

That calculation i think demonstrates the frustration with the current system. Requiring that level of time investment is out of reach for most players. I'd propose removing some of that time sink to a more reasonable level. Ultimately whats the harm in every character having access to the same end game equipment?

[mjones3]

Crafting points don't require time in game exactly. You can log in for a minute or so multiple times a day a few times over a week and have the item finished for your proper play time on the weekend. Or have allies help make it. It just keeps you from spitting out 10 on a Saturday afternoon and flushing your bank account down the enchanting basin in an attempt.


There is no true end game equipment, there's an end game standard but you can always gamble for better. Once you make a 5% item easily attainable the new bar is double 5%. And it will move right onto triple and beyond based on ease.

[Pala]

Once you make a 5% item easily attainable the new bar is double 5%. And it will move right onto triple and beyond based on ease.

I mean, sure mate, if there was a change that was not balanced. But, I think it goes without saying (as well having been said/implied) that we're discussing/proposing some sort of change to the basin/5% system that would be balanced.

Curious to hear people's thoughts on what jomonog said: "Ultimately whats the harm in every character having access to the same end game equipment?"

Is there any actual drawback to this?

[ReverentBlade]

I think the system itself is probably fine and mostly balanced, but boy, some quality of life changes to make it less OOCly painful to accomplish would be lovely.