Branch Topic: Scrying

[Shrouded Wanderer]

I would go so far as it say id like scrying if it was either Audio only or visual only.

Ive stated in private Scrying gives too much information and it lasts too little for it to actually serve an RP purpose.

Right now, even with increased time for scry eith specialists this ability will only be used for ganking

My preference is a change to audio only, and to scry as much as you want with 4 abilities

1. 30 second audio scry with no second cooldown

2. 3 minute audio scry with a 4 minute cooldow

With specialists getting their double abilities but have them be an additional choice for a 6 minute audio scry with a 4 minute CD and a 1 minute scry with no CD while still being able to choose the shorter abilities and gives Div focus more choices



This allows a scrier to potentially mark a target for a scry, see if they are doing anything and if so mark a longer scry to hear audio.
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This gives additional utility for spying while allowing wand users a minute leeway, but also doesnt give information that allows metagaming ganksquads to use the information recklessly.


I feel like this is a good middle ground for people who hate scrying, while giving scriers better utilities for Roleplay which is the primary goal of the ability.


As an asside i think div specialists should get a +6 premonition but thats a digression

[Nitro]

It really makes no sense for there to be a timer on Scry, Divination has the least going for it in every other capacity over other spell schools. It has little in terms of spells and half the goodies can be gained from an item. Now you slap it with a timer because the people that spent three feats for an ability are using it too much? You can -yoink, rest and -yoink again, same with other abilities on a cooldown timer. Why can't you be able to Scry every ten minutes without having to rest too?

Because too many people were abusing resting areas to permanently scry on people. The ability wasn't meant to give you a perfect safe way to see everything that other people do from a distance at all times.

[-XXX-]

Because too many people were abusing resting areas to permanently scry on people. The ability wasn't meant to give you a perfect safe way to see everything that other people do from a distance at all times.

I'm not saying that your point isn't valid, but it wasn't really that bad either - all the countermeasures still worked, which vastly mitigated the ability of diviners to obtain sensitive information.
In an overwhelming majority of cases you ended up burning through tens of thousands gold coins in spell components just to bear witness to fractions (interrupted by loading screen, rest, loading screen) of a glorified small talk between two slow typing players.


And as far as absolute results being bad goes - I'd like to point out that any character who doesn't want to be scried upon can achieve this with 100% success rate 100% of the time. So yes, money can render scry useless.

[Skarain]

The 10 minute cooldown is not a huge deal. It is a huge deal if you were drinking and chain scrying because that kind of violates the intent of the ability (or doing anything to "game" the resting/limits of the ability).

Question. With the cooldown, is the ability to scry intended to reset after 10 minutes, or do you need to rest on top of that?

Since that is how it works right now, I am trying to figure whether it is a Bug or a Feature?

[Complex]

I don't know if this has been said before, but could the -scry CD only start if the attempt at scrying is succesful? It is kind of lame to have to wait 10 min after seeing nothing, specially considering how easy it is to ward against scrying.

[Blood on my Lips]

I don't know if this has been said before, but could the -scry CD only start if the attempt at scrying is succesful? It is kind of lame to have to wait 10 min after seeing nothing, specially considering how easy it is to ward against scrying.

Currently the cool down timer is starting even on a failed scry attempt. I think this should be changed. You also use spell components on a failed attempt. I would love to see that changed.

[-XXX-]

I don't know if this has been said before, but could the -scry CD only start if the attempt at scrying is succesful? It is kind of lame to have to wait 10 min after seeing nothing, specially considering how easy it is to ward against scrying.

Currently the cool down timer is starting even on a failed scry attempt. I think this should be changed. You also use spell components on a failed attempt. I would love to see that changed.

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=32393

[Complex]

Thanks. Well, my feedback is that the CD shouldn't trigger when you scry someone that is warded against it because the means to do so are extremely easy to access and very prevalent. It's one thing to have a 10 min CD after you at least get something (even if you can't rest it off unlike every single other feat of this kind), but getting a 10 min CD with nothing in return just makes having -scry pointless.

Also, changes of these kind make scrying only more inconvenient for those who are trying to use it to spy, while those who use it to gank will still just get the location of the target and go kill them.

[Zavandar]

how does this change keep it from being used to gank?

how does this cd (triggered by failures) help it be used for spying?

[Echohawk]

Flatly speaking, I'm against this CD.

Reason being, Scry has its limitation based on how many times a character rests (not also talking about how arcane scriers also have a spell component cost additionally), this does nothing to prevent more than one scrier working together to try and scry someone specifically, they just now need more of a coven instead of maybe like one other guy. If it was restored once every 10 minutes without needing to rest that'd be different (like bard song getting recharges over time) but this literally makes no sense other than a giant middle finger to scriers.
That the coolddown happens on failure, bigger middle finger rubbed in the face.

I really don't understand the reason for this cooldown other than someone up there said "yeah f*ck scry".
The length of it didn't really need to be extended, people who type slowly are not giving out that much information that an extension would help in some significant way. It also puts you into stasis mode for a lot longer, and you can't relay information as readily.
(And those who can/decide to metagame they're being scried will just shut up anyway, thanks for trapping me here for nothing.)

[-XXX-]

how does this change keep it from being used to gank?

how does this cd (triggered by failures) help it be used for spying?

I guess that the intention was to prevent diviners from repeatedly "poking" at a warded target while hoping to hit the precise moment when a ward wanes temporarily before getting reapplied. This is a very corner case example however.

The cooldown does not increase -scry's utility in any way whatsoever, obviously.

[Xerah]

Still working on scry.

I will move the cooldown so it doesn't trigger on failure, but the spell component cost will remain; can't really have it both ways.

Also will have it refresh use upon the end of the cooldown rather than having to rest.

And these two, which I've already stated:

• Returned to 60 second base
• Option for 120 seconds and 240 sections (use -scry 1min/2min/4min to set); 4min req diviner

[Shrouded Wanderer]

A question for Diviners here in light of the Above changes.

Is Visual extremely necessary or is it too kuch of a nerf to Scry for Auditory scrying only?

[Skarain]

Thank you kindly Xerah.

All that sounds fair, nice and balanced.

[-XXX-]

Is Visual extremely necessary or is it too kuch of a nerf to Scry for Auditory scrying only?

Yes, it's necessary

[Eira]

A question for Diviners here in light of the Above changes.

Is Visual extremely necessary or is it too kuch of a nerf to Scry for Auditory scrying only?

Definitely necessary

[Shrouded Wanderer]

A question for Diviners here in light of the Above changes.

Is Visual extremely necessary or is it too kuch of a nerf to Scry for Auditory scrying only?

Definitely necessary

Can you expand on that?

My feeling on this matter is that if a Diviner can recognize the voices of the characters through divination they could know who they were speaking with.

I also think it gets rid of a frankly pervasive problem with using diviners to gank characters and not really as an RP tool.

[Eira]

Being able to describe what they're wearing, the place they're in, who they're with if they haven't spoken yet, if they have summons out, spells they're using, etc etc etc, things that they don't emote. If someone is sitting on the floor instead of a chair? My diviner would want that noted down.

[-XXX-]

Scrying is defined as "looking into a medium with the hope of obtaining visions", so yes the visual nature of this practice stems from its general definition.
Game mechanics should be intuitive to a degree, building up on our previous experience when hinting at what they do - whenever scrying gets mentioned, people usually connect that to visions and seeing things - intuitively they'll be expecting to see something when using such mechanic.

Furthermore, scrying in forgotten realms is defined as "both an arcane and divine magic spell that allowed the caster to view a subject at great distance and possibly across the planes of existence." This further supports the claim that scrying is a visual concept first and foremost.

Considering all of the above, we probably shouldn't ask ourselves whether the visual part of scrying was necessary any more than we question the fire elemental damage type of a fireball spell.

[Edens_Fall]

While never playing a scry mage, I have been on the receiving end often enough. The idea of scry to spy on meetings never bothered me, though its near constant use to locate and gank squad players is mildly disconcerting.

So personally I wouldn't shed a tear if the ability was removed or nerfed. Most intel is gathered from spies anyway, which leaves its only real use in target location for kill teams.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Being able to describe what they're wearing, the place they're in, who they're with if they haven't spoken yet, if they have summons out, spells they're using, etc etc etc, things that they don't emote. If someone is sitting on the floor instead of a chair? My diviner would want that noted down.

This is possibly a balancing topic here, but the issue i find is that, while your diviner may be the exception, the fact that visuals are often used to find locations of an enemy in order to gank them, in my opinion far outweigh seeing if someone is sitting in a chair.


Their summons out as well falls under a different topic that was just recently locked so i wont get into that. But as i see it, scry gives too much information as is, with zero intended drawback.


To know everything about a character you must know the 5 Ws

Who
What
Where
When
Why


Currently to scry you already have two of these things

Who, when

With visuals you can learn

What, where

With audio you learn

What, why.


Now the arguement that you dont learn some things because they may not speak is a bit of a fallacy, as if they are in combat you coupd hear combat sounds and be able to interpret that, if they are speaking you can hear that, if they arent doing anything the vision could be hazy and unhelpful


Losing vision demolishes using scry for ganking purposes, and that benefit outweighs everything as the balancing that devs do is based on this alone, not a single player i would think would care if you were able to chain scry an entire meeting if the possibility of a gank squad was eliminated from scrying all together.


And the arguments i always see of scrying is: detractors do not like the fact that its used to gank

Those for scrying feel its too much of a nerf


So my proposal is this


Give Scrying audio only, enable -blind while scrying

While ALSO giving options for component use based on scrying length

1 component 30 second/1 minute diviner esf /2min diviner esf-specialist 2 minute CD

2 component 1 minute/2minutr/4 minute 4 minute CD

3component 2 minute/4 minute/8 minute 8 minute CD

[In Sorrow We Trust]

Have you considered adding an option for an "audio" (text) only version? Where it would create something like the invisible object that records what you say for messages. The change would be that it would record anyone who spoke in the area then at the end of the duration/max message length it would spawn the results in the inventory of the one scrying?

That would keep the location secret barring someone saying something incriminating and prevent the one scrying from being locked in place because they zoned as you started the scry etc. Not saying replace the old option with something like that, but make it a different choice.

Legitimately a neat idea. If you were to cast a Scry spell and get a little bit of feedback about what they're doing, what kind of environment they're in (only basic details) and get information on what is being said, what they look like, that would be pretty nice. Could even do a reverse send_image where an ethereal image of the scry target appears and repeats everything said. Anything from other people around that person could come out garbled or muted. You'd be able to tell they were talking to someone, but not who or why.

Scry in its current form then could be renamed to Far Sight, and give a more detailed feed of ongoings at the location.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Have you considered adding an option for an "audio" (text) only version? Where it would create something like the invisible object that records what you say for messages. The change would be that it would record anyone who spoke in the area then at the end of the duration/max message length it would spawn the results in the inventory of the one scrying?

That would keep the location secret barring someone saying something incriminating and prevent the one scrying from being locked in place because they zoned as you started the scry etc. Not saying replace the old option with something like that, but make it a different choice.

Legitimately a neat idea. If you were to cast a Scry spell and get a little bit of feedback about what they're doing, what kind of environment they're in (only basic details) and get information on what is being said, what they look like, that would be pretty nice. Could even do a reverse send_image where an ethereal image of the scry target appears and repeats everything said. Anything from other people around that person could come out garbled or muted. You'd be able to tell they were talking to someone, but not who or why.

Scry in its current form then could be renamed to Far Sight, and give a more detailed feed of ongoings at the location.

The reverse message image idea is amazing and i want it, just have it repeat the last like 3 to 6 lines said by that character. I love this idea so much

[-XXX-]

Perhaps something worth considering for GSF: divination.

Would have been a colossal nerf to ESF: divination scrying though.

Personally I do not share the "scry is little more than a gank squad homing system" sentiment. Firstly, even that is a legitimate use of the mechanic, but far from the only one. Secondly, it can be easily defended against.
Furthermore, sounds more like a consequence of IG actions.
Nobody complains about hellball after they mess with an evoker, but suddenly -scry is a problem with somebody angers a diviner? Looks like everything works as intended here...

Scrying mostly serves to attain a general awareness of unfolding events in real time. Awareness of the location where these events unfold as they do is an important part of it.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

Perhaps something worth considering for GSF: divination.

Would have been a colossal nerf to ESF: divination scrying though.

Personally I do not share the "scry is little more than a gank squad homing system" sentiment. Firstly, even that is a legitimate use of the mechanic, but far from the only one. Secondly, it can be easily defended against.
Furthermore, sounds more like a consequence of IG actions.
Nobody complains about hellball after they mess with an evoker, but suddenly -scry is a problem with somebody angers a diviner? Looks like everything works as intended here...

Scrying mostly serves to attain a general awareness of unfolding events in real time. Awareness of the location where these events unfold as they do is an important part of it.

Evokers cannot hit you with a hellball from the opposite side of the server though, if we wanna start making a comparison id say wildmage is much more apt and i hear complaints all the time about them being overpowered.


But thats a digression. I didnt say scry was ONLY used for ganking. But what i did say was the visual component OF scry is most certainly the reason scry ganking exists at all. Remove the visual component and it ends that Unhealthy part of diviners all together


Edit: counterpoint here and rolling off the idea for a reverse messenger could be


Cast scry on a character, anything within 30 ft of that character is projected as an image and the last 4 minutes of conversation is projected infront of the diviner.