Never Laid on Hand

[TheManBehindTheMemes]

Paladins', and Divine Champions' Lay on Hand is one of few first abilities that was introduced to a CD system that made it easier to not needing rest every so often before big fights. However it's also one of the most annoying spells to utilize in most combat compared to other classes.

Lay on Hand heals based on Charisma Modifier x (Paladin+Divine Champion)Level = Maximum Heal/Damage result, with a cooldown of a literally long ten-minute. Also an interesting fact.

When Warlocks' beams got disconnected from the weapon so that they can no longer benefit these delicious, juicy Champion Dart that gives a massive boot to their AB. So does the same happened for Paladins/Divine Champion's Lay on Hand. It no longer benefited from the extra AB that paladin get from wielding their weapon, but instead ignored weapon's added AB effect.

Now, back to Laying on Hand. It was introduced three years ago, technically approaching the fourth year in October 2017 update.
18 days later, at the time, Yellowscateye was new coder, but he introduced complete fancy rework for the Knight Class. And gave them a far better healing utility called Final Stand.

Final Stand is level 5 Knight ability that gives you 1d8 HP heal per knight level, then additional 1d8 heal for every 5% of the party member's health is missing. And if the player in question is a ward, they get an additional 50% healing from your Final Stand. And of course, if you took Valiant Path. You get a 10 rounds duration of 10 HP regen.

At cooldown of three minutes.
Hey. That's pretty good.

Yeah. Like the chances of party member's health being low enough that you can heal them at maximum of 232 (or 348 if ward) in question are pretty low. And then there's dice of d8.

Paladins/Divine champions' on other hand are flat value. If you're a level 30 paladin with 16 Charisma, and you somehow gear up enough. You're only looking at like 270 heal every ten minutes. Compared to a Knight that can do about three more, and can be done to entire party in that entire 10 minute window.


The justification I can find for why Lay on Hand is ten minute cooldown, is it's a massive damage to undead.
Remember. Warlocks got their inficast beam AB disconnected from their weapon, ending era of champion darts. And when that happened, that also applied to paladins.


This is with just normal setup, no zoo/divine favor/Prayer applied onto me. No blessed weapon either.

Then I decided to do it again, but with zoo, divine favor, prayer, and blessed weapon.


And answers I got was that only zoo, divine favor, and prayer affects my AB for Layer on Hand inflicting damage on undead. Bless weapon did not. (Know that I have additional +5 AB with blessed weapon, and Weapon focus feat)

Currently, Paladins/Divine Champions need a better tweaking for Their Lay on Hand CD. And also, I firmly believe Lay on Hand's damage on undead should really be halved.


What you guys think so far? inb4 Anti-paladin brigades

[Bunnysmack]

A major difference here is that Lay on Hands is a early level class ability for a base class, and Final Stand is the capstone ability of a prestige class that requires a feat to gain access to. While paladin has a TON of passive benefits, and its own spellbook, and is one of the most powerful classes on the server (and has been for a very long time), Knight is a class entirely focused on its CD based activatable abilities, and gets almost nothing else. It is weak on class skills, and has zero passive class abilities (like, say, for instance adding all your charisma mod to your damage, AC, and saves).

I agree that Final Stand is WAY better of a CD based healing ability than Lay on Hands, but I also argue that that is game balance working as intended. From a PvP standpoint, a sudden 270hp heal with no casting time is pretty damn potent. The ten minute CD matches other potent class abilities like the Deathless Master's Touch attack from Pale Master. Knight stands apart because it is a class entirely focused on its activatable cooldown based abilities, and gets nothing else.

Edit: Will also point out that considering how personally tanky and powerful a well built paladin is, a three minute cooldown on Lay on Hands would make many dungeons a trivial endeavor from a HP maintenance perspective. Yes, Final Stand similarly does that, but a lot of knights will struggle to have the sheer personal power of an endgame paladin.

[Scurvy Cur]

When Warlocks' beams got disconnected from the weapon so that they can no longer benefit these delicious, juicy Champion Dart that gives a massive boot to their AB. So does the same happened for Paladins/Divine Champion's Lay on Hand. It no longer benefited from the extra AB that paladin get from wielding their weapon, but instead ignored weapon's added AB effect.

Small mechanical nitpick:

LoH is a melee touch attack, and therefore never benefitted from equipped weapon AB


From the NWN Wiki:

The attacker's touch attack bonus is as follows.

Melee:
BAB + strength modifier (only if positive) + nature sense + epic prowess (unless a ranged weapon is equipped) + unarmed weapon focus feats (if unarmed or using a creature weapon) + effects
Ranged:
BAB + dexterity modifier + weapon attack bonus + effects

Regarding the proposed change:

As someone who has played more paladins on this server than probably anyone other than Bashagain, I'd be leery of cutting too much CD off of Lay on Hands (I'd also suggest removing the debuff purge on Wholeness of Body for the sake of parallelism/consistency). Look at LoH as an emergency HP reserve to help you deal with shotgun/wombo combo damage, rather than as a sustained heal.

[Ork]

At level 10 Knight, Final Stand heals a 10d8 + at most an additional 20d8 for an average of 135 HP. That's equivalent to a critical wound potion at L30. For valiants, 10 rounds of 10 HP is 100HP. At most healing 235 over ten rounds. LoH heals significantly more.

[TheManBehindTheMemes]

At level 10 Knight, Final Stand heals a 10d8 + at most an additional 20d8 for an average of 135 HP. That's equivalent to a critical wound potion at L30. For valiants, 10 rounds of 10 HP is 100HP. At most healing 235 over ten rounds. LoH heals significantly more.

Assuming that your party-member is actually so low to that warrants a 20d8. The highest you can get before your party member immediately go dead is 29d8, and of course again if you're a Valiant. You'll regenerate an additional 100 HP over time. And as I've mentioned. The Ward get empowered version of these healing by 50%.

Dice plays an odd in the Final Stand, but it's AoE heal that can be used every three minutes, and can be used three time every 10 minutes, compared to Lay of Hand which can only be casted once every 10 minute.

Now, here's another thing. Paladin/Divine Champion's Lay on Hand is dependent on their levels x Charisma. Assuming this, A paladin/Champ will never outheal a max-roll Final Stand until level 22 cumulatively (Of either class). Knight's healing is strong at level 5 class, and it continues to get few dice stronger in the next 5 level. And earliest you can get Final Stand, is level 8 Character. Seriously though. If I have to bet a dollar on a level 3/5 Bard/Knight vs level 8 Paladin. I would bet on the Knight. The paladin's heal is too small to even win against the Knight's easily early start massive heal.

Knight stands apart because it is a class entirely focused on its activatable cooldown based abilities, and gets nothing else.

A three minute cooldown on Lay on Hands would make many dungeons a trivial endeavor from a HP maintenance perspective.

Knight also grant you free marital weapon feat, heavy armor feat if you're a non-marital/heavy armor class.

Also. Who said It have to be three minute CD?

[TheManBehindTheMemes]

Regarding the proposed change:

As someone who has played more paladins on this server than probably anyone other than Bashagain, I'd be leery of cutting too much CD off of Lay on Hands (I'd also suggest removing the debuff purge on Wholeness of Body for the sake of parallelism/consistency). Look at LoH as an emergency HP reserve to help you deal with shotgun/wombo combo damage, rather than as a sustained heal.

In my belief. I feel strongly that it should be 10 minute CD for first 1-10 level of Divine Champion/Paladin, 8 minutes CD for 11-20 levels, and then 21+ for 6 minutes. To provide an incentive for players who decided to main Paladins/Divine Champion, Similar to Blinding Speed.


And their Lay on Hand's damage to undeath halved. It's insane.

[Scurvy Cur]

That's fine. People have a lot of very interesting beliefs.

[Zavandar]

if pdk didn't exist, how would you justify these proposals?

very different classes with very different kits

[garrbear758]

very different classes with very different kits

This pretty much sums it up.

I would be very opposed to a decrease in the lay on hands duration.

[Ork]

I've played a lot of PDKs. Typically you're irking out 50 HP. I think paladins having a "oh shit" button on top of -pray is very, very good for them.