Discussion on Gold

[Quidix]

I think gold being an actually scarce resource is a good thing, unlike the past when everyone was drowning in gold. It gives value to cooperation, gives something to work for, and encourages more crafting.

It remains very possible to make a lot of gold with appraise / search / leadership - and you don't even need these skills yourself, just someone who has them - this encourages interaction and this type of skill investment, both which I'd consider good things.

The part where I would agree is that (1) gold income and expenses are far too imbalanced between different builds, and I'd like to see more gold sinks for casters, especially divine ones, and (2) it is uneven old vs new characters, and this will take a very, very, long time to balance naturally.

[Nitro]

I'm not trolling, either. It's far, far, far easier to make massive stacks of cash now (through legitimate adventuring) than it ever has been. Your capacity to do so is just gated behind skillpoint investments and a little player know-how on what's worth doing and what isn't worth doing. Even with the nerf to loose gold drops, gold remains (as it always was) obnoxiously easy to gather in massive amounts, even for STR characters: I can confirm this as the current player of a 2H WM.

I agree that gold generation is good now but it's just untrue that it's the best it's ever been. Literally an RL year ago it was even better, what we have today is AFTER the nerfs to gold drops of that time.

And that's not even mentioning the era where everyone got gold from clicking on corpses, that was some obscene amounts of gold generated per party.

[The Impregnable Derp]

I think gold being an actually scarce resource is a good thing, unlike the past when everyone was drowning in gold.

The problem is this isn't true. You have a lot of old characters with tens of millions of gold still hanging around. Some of these characters legitimately earned their fortune through years of mercantile and farming. Others just happen to be so old they were around when gold really was ridiculous and you could gain millions of gold per dungeon run. I suspect some of those characters with obscene amounts of gold have remained shelved and brought out whenever someone in the same group made a new character and needed a lot of money for whatever reason, which explains why we sometimes see mega rich characters pop up out of nowhere that no one has ever heard of before. Combine this with extreme levels of OOC nepotism when it comes to more desirable quarters and we have a system where a few people are drowning in obscene amounts of gold and have almost exclusive access to the better resources on the server, and everyone else is left either homeless or living in a closet in some tavern.

[TooManyPotatoes]

Combine this with extreme levels of OOC nepotism when it comes to more desirable quarters and we have a system where a few people are drowning in obscene amounts of gold and have almost exclusive access to the better resources on the server, and everyone else is left either homeless or living in a closet in some tavern.

We are the 99%!

[The Impregnable Derp]

Combine this with extreme levels of OOC nepotism when it comes to more desirable quarters and we have a system where a few people are drowning in obscene amounts of gold and have almost exclusive access to the better resources on the server, and everyone else is left either homeless or living in a closet in some tavern.

We are the 99%!

We really are. The problem is that most of us will realistically never be able to compete economically with the 1% who have been around for years and refused to roll their characters while accumulating vast amounts of wealth over time. Just look at wilderness quarters, they sell for millions of gold. Look at castles, you will need tens of millions to get one of those, even though most of them are empty and completely devoid of RP because someone else wants to sit on it just to flex their wealth. I would not even be slightly opposed to a gold wipe across all servers. Perhaps a soft wipe where everyone can keep up to 100k. Even then though these veterans would still be sitting on stacks of 100 adamantium, 50 star sapphires, etc. And they already have the best shops so they could move these goods quickly and make their fortunes back. I'm not sure what the solution is, if there even is one. The gold problem is only the tip of the iceberg, on top of that we have severe shortage of actually decent sized usable quarters, and a bad problem with settlement mechanics and established OOC cliques gaming them for their own advantage, mostly so they can hog more quarters than they need.. I'll probably be finding something else to do besides waste my time playing Arelith, I've done become bitter and jaded and resentful of others because of the way things are set up, and I don't foresee any major changes coming down the pipeline that would actually shake up the status quo enough to make a difference.

[Archnon]

Death has always been the bain of capitalism. All the wealth you can horde means nothing when you die. Without true death, characters can acquire infinite wealth. Makes me think of the altered carbon series.

[Lexx]

Death has always been the bain of capitalism. All the wealth you can horde means nothing when you die. Without true death, characters can acquire infinite wealth. Makes me think of the altered carbon series.

Except it isn't. Generational wealth acquisition creates dynasties of families that innately hit the ground running with fat inheritances of money that is sitting in offshore accounts, hedge funds and investments in shell corporations. The richest families in the real world all got started off money and assets given or inherited from their elders.

As for gold resets. That's just a temporary stopgap. Making gold for those who know how or have material goods stockpiled will be back where they were within a year IRL tops and not much will have changed.

[Rico_scorpion]

Frankly I don't take issue with players disparity. Time commitment, social commitment, game knowledge, veteranhood on the server, commitment to a single character rather than 500, those are all valid reasons to be wealthier than the guy next to you. It would be very hard to "fix" (should a problem be perceived here), and it would destroy more than it creates should drastic measures be taken.

Balance and class to class disparities however are where the problem lies as it's a built-in issue between two new toons. It's a problem that also can't be fixed, but I still feel that it reached big enough disparities that it should get some attention to try to diminish it. Maybe summons could use a nerf, and some item-basin-enchants could be added to use them at previous efficiency (or beyond with commitment)? That way at least casters MUST gear to solo content, rather than summon-buff-haste-profit.

New enchants (to be gated by item type and for AC follow sthe non-stacking rules as per standard AC enchants): + AB (summon) + AC (summon) +HP (summon), + elemental damage (summon), special property (summon) etc

Anyway. I'm rambling.

[The Impregnable Derp]

The problem is that the disparity of wealth is so massive that it becomes impossible to overcome. When you have ancient characters dropping 20 million gold bids on properties like it is nothing, it inflates the market to the point where 99% of players do not even get to participate. It doesn't matter how high my appraise skill is or how many hours I spend farming gold and selling stuff, I will never realistically be able to compete with a player character that was around 10 years ago and maxed out their bank account in a month back when gold drops were insanely high, or a character that has been selling wands and rare items every day for the past 6 years. Most of these people aren't even that wealthy because they are that skilled at the game, they were just there first, they had a head start on everybody else, they didn't resolve their character arc and roll they just shelved, etc. Yes a few of them would just become mega rich again in a month or two if there was a gold wipe but at least the rest of us might have a chance to catch up to them if we work hard for it. Right now we don't even have that.

[Deryliss]

I've been following this thread with great interest, but unsure how much more I can pitch in beyond the impassioned pleas you can read above. We seem to be hitting on two issues that may (or may not) require separate solutions.

Problem 1: Some characters (basically mundanes and anyone else overly reliant on consumables/externals to survive) have expenditures that are so high compared to average that they are lucky to break even when doing content. Worse, these characters also tend to have the most expensive gear requirements, compared to pure casters that can go 1-30 with basic basin and found gear.

Problem 2: There's a serious effect of haves vs have-nots in Arelith. Access to premium shops, ships and other infrastructure are by themselves ways to print money. A large property can pay for itself over and over again, and these properties are so expensive that they are essentially out of reach of nearly everyone that isn't "old money" in Arelith terms. (real life parallels left to the reader's pleasure).

Where they cross over: The most profitable shops are shops that sell consumables. Caster characters with brew potion / scribe scroll / craft wand can, with minimal effort, make tens or hundreds of thousands of gold (depending on shop location) a day selling consumables to mundanes, enriching the people that already have it so good while draining the gold away from those who can barely afford the tools of their trade already.


I think both problems have to be addressed somewhat separately, but there's a few things where they overlap. Mundane reliance on consumables is where I'd start - rather than increasing gold income across the board, just make things a bit easier for mundanes, especially those in the leveling phase. A caster (say a favored soul) can equip 2x attribute 3x skill basin gear, throw on Magic Vestment, and have a BETTER armor than any mundane will ever have in their entire lifetime. For basically free. A mundane will be penny pinching to eventually upgrade to mithril by the time they should really be equipping addy, and then skipping addy altogether and just begging casters for Magic Vestment in parties.


I can see several solutions around this problem, but Arelith's devs are no slouches and they will likely have better ones. I will instead point out ONE solution that has been put in the game and is BRILLIANT. The Commanding Brigadine. An endgame armor that specifically benefits one important aspect of the class, providing a buff that is ONLY useful for anyone who actually goes deep in that martial class? Genius. This is the way to create items that a caster won't just use anyway and then throw Magic Vestment on to make it even better for themselves.


EDIT: On a re-read I realize I harped on Magic Vestment a lot, but the same applies to a lot of other buffs. Barkskin, Shield/Shield of Faith, pretty much anything that allows you to 'fix the math'. It's incredibly hard getting these increases from gear instead of consumables/external buffs (impossible in the case of natural armor, hence why Barkskin wands/pots will always be the #1 seller).

[Bunnysmack]

I will note that leveling an alt for the first time in ages recently saw a shockingly reduced amount of income, to the point where I could BARELY afford a level appropriate weapon, while providing all the materials myself for having it forged, and using almost entirely scavenged gear otherwise.

On my main, I've also noticed a sharp decline in sales from my shop over the last IRL two months, despite keeping prices on my usual goods the same or lower than previously posted in it. People are just buying a lot less, despite many of the wares being the same kind, at the same price, at the same location, and no apparent competitors undercutting the prices nearby.

When dialoguing with various newer characters in game, it is a running trend that most of them seem to have trouble affording a lot of the goods and gear that a lot of people took for granted back when I was leveling characters as recently as eight months ago.

None of the above observations are necessarily objective proof that there is a problem with gold economy, but given the subject of this thread, I wanted to add whatever evidence I have personally seen occur.

[Hazard]

Unpopular opinion, and I don't mean to disrespect any differing ones. I totally get you, too and am fine with how things were, could be and are.

But my own opinion? I really like that gold is more rare. It almost became meaningless, and every character by 30 was just expected to have Best-In-Slot items. It started to feel a bit like WoW. No thanks.

I really like being broke on my new characters and having to work for stuff. It feels so good when I get it.

DISCLAIMER:
I am also one of the people who were against the XP penalty nerf to death, and actually wanted it significantly increased. Just to put perspective to what kind of gameplay I enjoy.

[thimblegiant]

If it's really true that old characters are sitting on millions, the decay time on that wealth relative to expense is going to be effectively forever. That said, increasing gold drops again isn't going to solve that either.

However there are a few PW factors that don't come into play in RL. For example in RL if you're sitting on a dragon's hoard of gold, you're paying for that luxury. It costs money to store precious metals. Here you can sit on it without consequence.

The other challenge is people can use various techniques to mule wealth and "privilege" (shop access, power) between characters using factions as a buffer. I actually don't think there is even a rule against this, but perhaps there should be.

Also, as it stands it seems there is an implicit expectation for characters to invest skill points into search, appraise, leadership and sleight of hand (might as well throw that in there) to be effective at acquiring appropriate gear. I think that's fine to some extent. I appreciate the option to build out a character with a particular focus, but using my current character as an example, I've hit my upper limits for some of these and either I can't afford to, or level restrictions prevent me from putting more in.

A few thoughts off the top of my head to throw into the mix:

• Open the temps stalls to 2 hour windows (I mentioned this up thread, but just reiterating).

• Introduce some type of "shop rot" on items, or a luxury tax per item to put downward pressure on prices. I know there is a sales tax, but I was thinking a time based tax as well. Don't know.

• Put an upper limit on individual and faction wealth.

• Disallow rejoining old factions with new characters. No mechanical enforcement, just a social policy.

• Implement a cost for settlement upkeep (maybe this exists already).

[Xerah]

To note, this was checked a few months ago.

7 character and 5 factions accounts have over 10 million (some of those 7 may own some of those 5 faction accounts)

I do not see that as widespread of an issue as some are claiming. I've been able to get a number of faction places and good shop locations and I've never paid for a shop or quarter at some obscene amount.

That said, I'm very much of the opinion that factions accounts should be tied to members with a max amount and personal accounts have a max amount as well.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I think it would be good if the cost to make some wands was lowered, as well as potions as others have noted. It would help the problem for low level mundanes if things like animal spells were less expensive. As well, when I was levelling a rogue, I only got use out of ghostly visage in early levels, prior to stoneskin wands being available. But the wands are more expensive than stoneskin, it costs 3960 to make one. I think it'd be good to lower the cost for both ghostly visage and stoneskin, they're more useful for leveling than epic content. And epic dungeons, people often go in groups, so will have a mage to cast stoneskin if it's needed.

The other problem is players themselves, who charge a flat 6k per wand no matter what kind of wand it is, which is nuts when it costs 264 or 792 to make. This can be solved by putting pressure on settlement leaders to crack down on bad shops.
A trick for people wand shopping: If you see a flat 6k shop, look for the following spells with high charges:
Animal spells, Haste, Protection from Elements, Freedom of Movement, Ghostly Visage.
These spells all cost 4k to make a wand of, if the wand has 41 or more charges they're making less than 50 gold a charge, you are effectively saving money. If you find a 47 or more charge stoneskin, lesser spell breach, or improved invisibility wand, 6k is a good price too.

[Bunnysmack]

The other problem is players themselves, who charge a flat 6k per wand no matter what kind of wand it is, which is nuts when it costs 264 or 792 to make. This can be solved by putting pressure on settlement leaders to crack down on bad shops.
A trick for people wand shopping: If you see a flat 6k shop, look for the following spells with high charges:
Animal spells, Haste, Protection from Elements, Freedom of Movement, Ghostly Visage.
These spells all cost 4k to make a wand of, if the wand has 41 or more charges they're making less than 50 gold a charge, you are effectively saving money. If you find a 47 or more charge stoneskin, lesser spell breach, or improved invisibility wand, 6k is a good price too.

I actively snort in real life whenever I see a 6K wand posted in a shop with only 27 charges. Sadly, it's more commonly done than it should be

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

To note, this was checked a few months ago.

7 character and 5 factions accounts have over 10 million (some of those 7 may own some of those 5 faction accounts)

I do not see that as widespread of an issue as some are claiming. I've been able to get a number of faction places and good shop locations and I've never paid for a shop or quarter at some obscene amount.

That said, I'm very much of the opinion that factions accounts should be tied to members with a max amount and personal accounts have a max amount as well.

10 million in the bank is an insane bar to set, because that likely means you have not only multiple sets of fully 5% gear for different occasions but have helped gear a few of your friends along the way. I don't care how excited you get about how large your bank account is, eventually you will get bored and find stuff to spend on.

[xanrael]

Its great to see some hard numbers on that. Was that on characters that had logged in somewhat recently or would a character that had last been logged in 4 years ago contribute to that total? I assumed the former but thought I'd ask.

[Xerah]

Over a non-specific 31 days.

[Hedgehog]

Don’t know how people are able to sit on millions of gold and not use it haha, are you just sitting around doing nothing with it? Hire some people, get some good roleplay going!

[Bunnysmack]

I've never personally had anywhere near that much gold, or been part of a faction with net-worth like that, but I can say from being part of political RP on a prior character of mine that had contacts with very deep pockets who would collaborate with him on various schemes: A lot of the heavy wealth is often saved up as a political war chest. Sometimes figuratively, and sometimes literally.

Being able to tip the scale on a crucial land bid that gives your faction more influence and credibility, bribing voters or other factions, outright hiring spies and mercenaries; all of these endeavors require substantial capital, as does outfitting new initiates to your faction that suddenly get recruited. Another consideration is being able to pay for reparations if your faction suffers a substantial defeat to someone, or pay ransom if an important associate gets captured.

Usually these expenditures are of a more situational and expedient manner, rather than ongoing and stable set of costs, so it was the experience that myself, and my various contacts, would amass wealth to be used when those "rainy day" situations/opportunities would arise.

[The GrumpyCat]

I've never personally had anywhere near that much gold, or been part of a faction with net-worth like that, but I can say from being part of political RP on a prior character of mine that had contacts with very deep pockets who would collaborate with him on various schemes: A lot of the heavy wealth is often saved up as a political war chest. Sometimes figuratively, and sometimes literally.

Being able to tip the scale on a crucial land bid that gives your faction more influence and credibility, bribing voters or other factions, outright hiring spies and mercenaries; all of these endeavors require substantial capital, as does outfitting new initiates to your faction that suddenly get recruited. Another consideration is being able to pay for reparations if your faction suffers a substantial defeat to someone, or pay ransom if an important associate gets captured.

Usually these expenditures are of a more situational and expedient manner, rather than ongoing and stable set of costs, so it was the experience that myself, and my various contacts, would amass wealth to be used when those "rainy day" situations/opportunities would arise.

I mean in theory the Brokerage system, and also to an extent outfitting others ect, do act as 'Gold Sinks'. Ways of getting rid of exsessive amounts of gold, which will hopefully narrow some gaps here. That's the theory anyway.

One interesting thing to me about the recent gold change is it... also does something interesting reguarding danger when dungoneering.

The gold most folk make on dungeons now comes from items. Jewlery, scrolls, resources ect.... things that don't drop when you die. So, in terms of loss, adventuring is actually a bit safer, wierdly enough.

Just food for thought.

[chris a gogo]

The gold most folk make on dungeons now comes from items. Jewlery, scrolls, resources ect.... things that don't drop when you die. So, in terms of loss, adventuring is actually a bit safer, wierdly enough.

Just food for thought.

Little example here my True Flame spent the first week of it's existence dying constantly, so i decided to buy some DR bracers for 120k even with dying sometimes twice in 2 hours of play i managed to get the gold together in a week.
Whats even worse was when I died I used to think well it saves me walking back with this stuff as the gold dropped was nothing compared to the loot collected.

[Archnon]

Grinding for gold is still doable, with enough time investment. You didn't mention how many hours you played in that week though.

Also, as an additional note, 10 million gold is not that much. The key for that kind of crazy gold is just having a shop in a good area. My last character I ran a tailor shop in the halls in brog. I kept it stocked by doing a run for cotton and spider silk and investing in craft points. I dropped that character and rolled them at level 28 (the build was pretty broken). I had around 8 million gold after running the shop for 6-9 months. At the end, I handed out gold to a bunch of RP causes I believed in, 1 million here, 2 million there, including donating some to the purchase of a castle. Tried to give it to people I thought would use it well. In my time running the shop, I never ran a single epic dungeon for runic materials. All of my speciality materials and runic materials, ranging for speciality gems, addy ingots, to mithril dust, to base rune components, I purchased in other shops, crafted and resold as final end items. I had managed to 5% almost all of my own gear and rune what I couldn't 5%. I spent money to make money and still came out with 8 million

Those shops generate gobs of money if centrally located and if run properly. The fact that factions might control multiple shops is really insane. If you wanted to do something about wealth inequality on Arelith I would start there.

[Aradin]

7 character and 5 factions accounts have over 10 million (some of those 7 may own some of those 5 faction accounts)

Joke suggestion: if you're a character with over 10 million gold in the bank, your name gets put on a public registrar for everyone to seethe at. Eat the rich!