I've always been insanely preoccupied with traps to the extent that I pretty much only play rangers and rogues. I think they're a brilliantly implemented system, particularly in Arelith which has put a lot of effort into making them even more useful.
I also have an obsession with friendly fire. No, I don't intentionally use that fireball scroll on an enemy two feet away from my ally. But the fact that a fireball is a fireball and it will hurt everything in its path is a huge part of what makes combat so tactical and gritty.
In fact when I came to Arelith these were the two topics I fussed about first. Although the roleplaying aspect intrigued me what made me actually choose Arelith were the friendly fire policy and the fact that trap use and/or crafting wasn't eliminated or otherwise limited by the server.
These needs may sound niche and arbitrary to some of you but in essence I was looking for a place where adults could make adult decisions about combat and be forced to engage in tactics rather than a glorified game of whack-a-mole, and where beautifully designed crafting and skill systems were reinforced rather than deleted or neglected. I found this in Arelith.
However I think the server did make a mistake with regards to trapping and friendly fire lately. The other day I was involved in a very consensual PVP situation where I was playing a villain and a party of men came to kill me. Of course I laid traps. Now we've probably all had problems with the system of setting people to hostile. Especially when you change hexes people often go back to neutral. I hadn't realized this happened and when one of the men stepped on a trap I received a message that a non hostile party triggered a trap and it was sent to my inventory.
This is a problem. Not only is there the aforementioned practical issue of players glitching out from hostile status but I believe there's a fundamental ideological issue. In all other regards Arelith is a world where pulling the pin from a grenade has consequences: Your lightning bolt can kill a friend, your trap splash damage can kill you, you can deliberately attack people in your party. While none of these actions are desirable and should be avoided their existence as problems is a testament to player freedom and responsibility. This is not World of Warcraft.
With regard to setting traps I believe Arelith ought to have the courage of its convictions. Have I left traps unattended? Sure, if I was forced to run for my life. But I generally treated them like fireball or black tentacle spells and understood the consequences of setting them. I don't like to see them declawed and remade into foam swords that only hurt mean people.
This thread was not meant to insult any of the Arelith developers who in my eyes have done unbelievable work in creating and maintaining the only PC game I will ever play. I just couldn't keep silent on this particular change in trapping.
Trap Issues
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Scurvy Cur
- Posts: 1346
- Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2015 3:48 am
Re: Trap Issues
The system is the way it is to allow traps to be more freely used without every placement being a PvP rulebreak willing to happen.
Because we require that every PvP incident have at least some modicum of interactive roleplay leading up to it, and because we require that hostile flags be set in advance of the engagement, traps require a special check to make sure that they do not violate the rules of engagement.
In reality, this check is here for your protection. Without it, every single time you set traps in advance (the most logical way to use traps, after all), you run the risk of a rules of engagement violation from setting off a trap on someone you've not hostiled, not RPed with, or both. Before this check was implemented, the only sort of trap setting that you could do without risking a flagrant rulebreak was to set traps only after a fight had begun. Imagine the following scenario: You know that a group of people is hunting for you and there's going to be a fight. You know roughly where they're coming from, so you set traps in zone A. You decide you'll watch for them from zone B, and retreat into zone A, where they will set off your traps. While you're waiting to draw your opponents across your traps, someone uninvolved moves from zone B to zone A and sets off your traps instead. You've now broken the pvp engagement rules. Oops.
You've also drawn a bit of a false analogy here. A trap is not like a lightning bolt or a fireball. The lightning bolt spell is one you toss out while the conflict is active and everyone knows it's going on, so is fireball. A trap is generally tossed out well before all parties understand that a fight is underway. You're a little closer with the tentacle spell, except that spell will last a matter of rounds, while a trap is on the ground until you recover it, it goes off, or the server resets. Plus everyone can see the tentacles, but few people will be able to see the traps; you can at least make the argument that someone walking into a patch of tentacles knows exactly what's going to happen to them, but you can make no such argument regarding a trap.
Furthermore, the friendly fire "drawback" you're trying to analogize to a lightning bolt or a grenade, really isn't. You're not upset because your traps failed to cause friendly fire damage to a party member, you're upset because your traps failed to kill an enemy that was not hostile flagged at the time. Likewise, the system is not in place to protect you or your party members from accidental trap activation it is in place to protect uninvolved bystanders, people who you have failed to properly hostile, and people who may be walking through long after the fight has taken place (you yourself have admitted to having abandoned a trapped area and leaving traps behind untended when you did so).
Because we require that every PvP incident have at least some modicum of interactive roleplay leading up to it, and because we require that hostile flags be set in advance of the engagement, traps require a special check to make sure that they do not violate the rules of engagement.
In reality, this check is here for your protection. Without it, every single time you set traps in advance (the most logical way to use traps, after all), you run the risk of a rules of engagement violation from setting off a trap on someone you've not hostiled, not RPed with, or both. Before this check was implemented, the only sort of trap setting that you could do without risking a flagrant rulebreak was to set traps only after a fight had begun. Imagine the following scenario: You know that a group of people is hunting for you and there's going to be a fight. You know roughly where they're coming from, so you set traps in zone A. You decide you'll watch for them from zone B, and retreat into zone A, where they will set off your traps. While you're waiting to draw your opponents across your traps, someone uninvolved moves from zone B to zone A and sets off your traps instead. You've now broken the pvp engagement rules. Oops.
You've also drawn a bit of a false analogy here. A trap is not like a lightning bolt or a fireball. The lightning bolt spell is one you toss out while the conflict is active and everyone knows it's going on, so is fireball. A trap is generally tossed out well before all parties understand that a fight is underway. You're a little closer with the tentacle spell, except that spell will last a matter of rounds, while a trap is on the ground until you recover it, it goes off, or the server resets. Plus everyone can see the tentacles, but few people will be able to see the traps; you can at least make the argument that someone walking into a patch of tentacles knows exactly what's going to happen to them, but you can make no such argument regarding a trap.
Furthermore, the friendly fire "drawback" you're trying to analogize to a lightning bolt or a grenade, really isn't. You're not upset because your traps failed to cause friendly fire damage to a party member, you're upset because your traps failed to kill an enemy that was not hostile flagged at the time. Likewise, the system is not in place to protect you or your party members from accidental trap activation it is in place to protect uninvolved bystanders, people who you have failed to properly hostile, and people who may be walking through long after the fight has taken place (you yourself have admitted to having abandoned a trapped area and leaving traps behind untended when you did so).
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malcolm_mountainslayer
- Posts: 1062
- Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 5:08 am
Re: Trap Issues
Scurvy is right. In fact reading this new trap system makes me really excited for traps, because in the past if you accidentally hit somebody with a trap that wasnt rp before pvp, you would be in trouble for pvp with no rp and potentially slapped/punished for griefing/bad behavior.
Re: Trap Issues
I see the point about protection from rule breaking. But the DMs here seem to be very fair, giving out warnings before taking action and even more importantly respecting the intent of a player and recognizing when a mistake was made. In a "traps will be traps" environment I can't see a DM here banning someone for trap use rule breaking because of an honest mistake once or twice. I think one of the best qualities of Arelith is that in many cases there's a libertarian mindset that trumps the safety mindset. This is not a party PVP server or a place that bans pickpocketing, for example.
When you claim that limiting the use of traps to hostile opponents will correct problems you're absolutely right. There are still old landmines going off all over the world and killing innocent people, weather they're flagged as hostile or not.
Obviously I have no problem with traps being cleared on a server reset, but I was using this example to represent what I believe a trap fundamentally is.
While this is not hill I am willing to die on and I intend to continue playing the greatest game in the world I just wanted to voice my opinions and see if anyone agreed with me. It looks like a no.
When you claim that limiting the use of traps to hostile opponents will correct problems you're absolutely right. There are still old landmines going off all over the world and killing innocent people, weather they're flagged as hostile or not.
Obviously I have no problem with traps being cleared on a server reset, but I was using this example to represent what I believe a trap fundamentally is.
While this is not hill I am willing to die on and I intend to continue playing the greatest game in the world I just wanted to voice my opinions and see if anyone agreed with me. It looks like a no.
Re: Trap Issues
What I don't like most about this is that it can be gamed the other way. Think there might be traps? Close the gap before they hostile you.
Re: Trap Issues
I'll be honest, I play with traps and so many things have improved the game in regard of traps use recently, which I am very grateful for. But don't aim at pvp at all, 'cause I'm kind of a new-born around and can't handle it, pve is more than enough to challenge me. That means that this particular change of how traps work towards neutral creatures is a blessing to me, in all regards.
But I'm not surprised that someone who want to play with traps in pvp sees this change as a free disabling ability for all. I clearly believe it anihilates the very possibility to use them in many pvp situations, and probably it was necessary to lower their "efficiency" somehow, but from my very inexperienced point of view I wonder if using traps in pvp has any value compared to other options now.
In any case, as I stated before, I love this change and welcomed it. I just sympathize with those who unlike me are interested in using traps in pvp. I'd prefer things to stay the way they are now, but could not in all honesty answer to these people that it seems fair.
Felt I had to answer since the guy asked ... Was indeed surprised no one raised that question before, figured that probably few were interested in traps in pvp
Love you guys
But I'm not surprised that someone who want to play with traps in pvp sees this change as a free disabling ability for all. I clearly believe it anihilates the very possibility to use them in many pvp situations, and probably it was necessary to lower their "efficiency" somehow, but from my very inexperienced point of view I wonder if using traps in pvp has any value compared to other options now.
In any case, as I stated before, I love this change and welcomed it. I just sympathize with those who unlike me are interested in using traps in pvp. I'd prefer things to stay the way they are now, but could not in all honesty answer to these people that it seems fair.
Felt I had to answer since the guy asked ... Was indeed surprised no one raised that question before, figured that probably few were interested in traps in pvp
Love you guys
Re: Trap Issues
Deleted (accidentally multi-posted)
Last edited by Waldo52 on Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Trap Issues
Deleted (accidentally multi-posted)
Last edited by Waldo52 on Thu Mar 04, 2021 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Trap Issues
time=1614872840 user_id=5302]
Arelith created some kind of rule which renders you immune to player set traps for about six seconds after triggering one which is a pretty stiff regulation already. While this rule doesn't have a viable flavor justification it was probably necessary because trap minefields can be stupidly powerful, especially with the brilliant buffs to trapping the dev team added. It was one of those rare situations where I felt like a hard rule without a flavor justification was acceptable. And the flavor of it isn't THAT bad. I think of it as my character investing his energy into one or two good traps instead of twenty weak ones.
Putting the strength or weakness of traps aside, I encountered another roleplay issue with traps about a couple weeks ago, only the shoe was on the other foot and l was playing a good guy. I'm an elven ranger who uses traps to compensate for his piss poor strength, and was running from an enemy in a cave. (an evil player looking to kill me). Of course we were set hostile but the hostile system is finnicky. I get ahead of him and set a trap when he's out of my immediate field of vision. Of course, during all this he auto-un-hostiles because the game is buggy.
He runs in, triggers the trap in non hostile fashion and it gets sent to my inventory.
Can we take a moment to reflect on what just happened, not in terms of BUFF TRAPS or NERF TRAPS but in terms of narrative? Because this is Arelith, it's not World of Warcraft.
A man was chasing me. I set a trap when I've gotten a bit of distance from him. He steps on it, sending it whimsically flying back into my inventory because it's a bomb that only explodes mean people, and he is for several seconds not a meanie. Battle again ensues.
Please reread that last paragraph. I want anyone participating in this thread to take a hard look at the actual narrative account of what happened and tell me if you think it makes sense. Again, hostile only traps solve some problems. That is not up for debate. The real question is weather actual dangerous traps were such a profound threat to the health of the game that an otherwise gritty and immersive roleplaying server needed to take a bizarre story breaking actions to limit them. I honestly don't buy the argument that we needed this intervention for our own good lest we accidentally break a rule, primarily for the narrative reasons I've laid out but also because it casts the DMs as capricious ogres looking to penalize people for any honest mistake.
I can't imagine a player saying "You damaged me by accident with a fantasy land mine in the course of your ernest role playing endeavors! I'm contacting a DM!", followed by a DM saying "Yup, it's cut and dry. This is the second time you've accidentally damaged someone in two months. Banned for life!" Anyone with such fears clearly takes a dim and cynical view of this wonderful community.
I don't think it was in fact necessary to lower the efficiency of traps before this change.Tikin wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:33 am
But I'm not surprised that someone who want to play with traps in pvp sees this change as a free disabling ability for all. I clearly believe it anihilates the very possibility to use them in many pvp situations, and probably it was necessary to lower their "efficiency" somehow, but from my very inexperienced point of view I wonder if using traps in pvp has any value compared to other options now.
In any case, as I stated before, I love this change and welcomed it. I just sympathize with those who unlike me are interested in using traps in pvp. I'd prefer things to stay the way they are now, but could not in all honesty answer to these people that it seems fair.
Arelith created some kind of rule which renders you immune to player set traps for about six seconds after triggering one which is a pretty stiff regulation already. While this rule doesn't have a viable flavor justification it was probably necessary because trap minefields can be stupidly powerful, especially with the brilliant buffs to trapping the dev team added. It was one of those rare situations where I felt like a hard rule without a flavor justification was acceptable. And the flavor of it isn't THAT bad. I think of it as my character investing his energy into one or two good traps instead of twenty weak ones.
Putting the strength or weakness of traps aside, I encountered another roleplay issue with traps about a couple weeks ago, only the shoe was on the other foot and l was playing a good guy. I'm an elven ranger who uses traps to compensate for his piss poor strength, and was running from an enemy in a cave. (an evil player looking to kill me). Of course we were set hostile but the hostile system is finnicky. I get ahead of him and set a trap when he's out of my immediate field of vision. Of course, during all this he auto-un-hostiles because the game is buggy.
He runs in, triggers the trap in non hostile fashion and it gets sent to my inventory.
Can we take a moment to reflect on what just happened, not in terms of BUFF TRAPS or NERF TRAPS but in terms of narrative? Because this is Arelith, it's not World of Warcraft.
A man was chasing me. I set a trap when I've gotten a bit of distance from him. He steps on it, sending it whimsically flying back into my inventory because it's a bomb that only explodes mean people, and he is for several seconds not a meanie. Battle again ensues.
Please reread that last paragraph. I want anyone participating in this thread to take a hard look at the actual narrative account of what happened and tell me if you think it makes sense. Again, hostile only traps solve some problems. That is not up for debate. The real question is weather actual dangerous traps were such a profound threat to the health of the game that an otherwise gritty and immersive roleplaying server needed to take a bizarre story breaking actions to limit them. I honestly don't buy the argument that we needed this intervention for our own good lest we accidentally break a rule, primarily for the narrative reasons I've laid out but also because it casts the DMs as capricious ogres looking to penalize people for any honest mistake.
I can't imagine a player saying "You damaged me by accident with a fantasy land mine in the course of your ernest role playing endeavors! I'm contacting a DM!", followed by a DM saying "Yup, it's cut and dry. This is the second time you've accidentally damaged someone in two months. Banned for life!" Anyone with such fears clearly takes a dim and cynical view of this wonderful community.
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Baron Saturday
- Posts: 2364
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:34 am
Re: Trap Issues
I think the concern is more "Hi, I started playing three days ago and today I stepped into the outskirts and insta-died because there was a big fight there half and hour ago, this is poo."Waldo52 wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:54 pm I can't imagine a player saying "You damaged me by accident with a fantasy land mine in the course of your ernest role playing endeavors! I'm contacting a DM!", followed by a DM saying "Yup, it's cut and dry. This is the second time you've accidentally damaged someone in two months. Banned for life!" Anyone with such fears clearly takes a dim and cynical view of this wonderful community.
Epic traps can very easily one-shot lower level characters, which nobody enjoys.
Rolled: Helene d'Arque, Sara Lyonall
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
Shelved: Kels Vetian, Cin ys'Andalis, Saul Haidt
Playing: Oshe Jordain
Re: Trap Issues
I believe this happened because someone was griefing on skal doing this very thing.Baron Saturday wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 8:15 pmI think the concern is more "Hi, I started playing three days ago and today I stepped into the outskirts and insta-died because there was a big fight there half and hour ago, this is poo."Waldo52 wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 3:54 pm I can't imagine a player saying "You damaged me by accident with a fantasy land mine in the course of your ernest role playing endeavors! I'm contacting a DM!", followed by a DM saying "Yup, it's cut and dry. This is the second time you've accidentally damaged someone in two months. Banned for life!" Anyone with such fears clearly takes a dim and cynical view of this wonderful community.
Epic traps can very easily one-shot lower level characters, which nobody enjoys.