HIPS (SM & SD)

[A1RMAN]

If this change is so important and inevitable, give people a right to remake their characters, especially the shadow mages.

Some people already deleted their characters out of frustration and some are considering leaving. Let people make a new build that they will be happy with and can continue with their name and story.

It is painful to see how this mechanical change can hurt the story lines.

[Nekonecro]

Relevels have been offered, need to read the update notes mate.

[A1RMAN]

Relevels have been offered, need to read the update notes mate.

Never wrote anything about relevels.

[Itikar]

Yes, it is something so massive that perhaps also remake support would probably seem appropriate, imho. At least for those few characters who are utterly broken. It reminds me of the monk changes some months ago, when they were given epic dodge and many old builds became suddenly completely obsolete, making level 1 picks and ability allotments that till then were good suddenly very unsuitable for the new version of the class.

[Bunnysmack]

Characters with Shadowdancer levels or the feats dodge and mobility but not spring attack will be given relevels. Rangers > 3 and Shadow Mages will also be given relevels. Full level 0 rebuilds or relevels for other classes will not be offered.

-Excerpt from the relevant patch notes

EDIT: Seems the relevels are being offered to most (if not all) effected people.

This is not me taking sides on the matter, just trying to clear up the stated update facts on behalf of the people that are arguing about the issue.

[Drowboy]

Rangers greater than three and shadowmages will be given relevels translates to won't?

Also, uh, it looks like they get evo now. DC being low doesnt mean much since igms doesn't have one.

[Bunnysmack]

*Facepalms with a self flagellating abandon*

Okay, okay, I totally misread that. I apologize for my accidental misinformation. Ignore my prior post please

[JoeKickAss]

It should go without saying that making changes like this gives us very little pleasure, and the team was well aware it would leave a bitter taste for many.

At the end of the day we couldn't leave this in, in it's current form, as I believe Garrbear thoroughly explained. Removing it was the only real option.

Really the mistake was my own in approving it for reactivation after so many years, without fully understanding the mechanical implications.

The change was implemented very poorly. We have seen Shadowmage changes being retconned twice in three hours. They are clearly going to be changed again soon since the current changes make no sense.

It's only a game, but let's not pretend there has been much thought on what shadowmage players should be doing, or what builds they should pursue.

Can they even relevel?

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Is there a reason its 11 shadow dancer and not 9?

Like so shadow mages could (if they choose to forego discipline) go 21 wiz 9 shadow dancer for 30 cl, epic caster requirements and hips?

Was 9 SD considered too easy to achieve on certain builds? I do appreciate at least keeping it on some form though! I have a lot of fun heavy SD builds so it was nice of you all not to completely nuke it.

[Xerah]

It should go without saying that making changes like this gives us very little pleasure, and the team was well aware it would leave a bitter taste for many.

At the end of the day we couldn't leave this in, in it's current form, as I believe Garrbear thoroughly explained. Removing it was the only real option.

Really the mistake was my own in approving it for reactivation after so many years, without fully understanding the mechanical implications.

The change was implemented very poorly. We have seen Shadowmage changes being retconned twice in three hours. They are clearly going to be changed again soon since the current changes make no sense.

It's only a game, but let's not pretend there has been much thought on what shadowmage players should be doing, or what builds they should pursue.

Can they even relevel?

There has been plenty of thought put into this update.

Complaining about changing being "retconned" is downright wrong, considering they aren't even currently live.

[Xerah]

Was 9 SD considered too easy to achieve on certain builds? I do appreciate at least keeping it on some form though! I have a lot of fun heavy SD builds so it was nice of you all not to completely nuke it.

Keep in mind that the update says that HIPS will be totally removed from Arelith upon a full rework of the class.

[Blossom]

Two questions without editorial comment (I will take what comes)

One. I have an SD/weaponmaster in the vault. I'd just as soon relevel in a different manner, that was a new-to-the-server character and what was I thinking. Will being a weaponmaster make it so I can't relevel or will being shadowdancer as well override that? (May just delete them either way as they're shelved but I am still curious)

Two. I have a level 16 SD/7 fighter/4 rogue I am reasonably happy with and don't need to relevel currently. However there are vague threats of redoing the class completely. Will there be another round of SD relevels later if the class is completely reworked or is this my only chance?

Thank you...

[Xerah]

Two questions without editorial comment (I will take what comes)

One. I have an SD/weaponmaster in the vault. I'd just as soon relevel in a different manner, that was a new-to-the-server character and what was I thinking. Will being a weaponmaster make it so I can't relevel or will being shadowdancer as well override that? (May just delete them either way as they're shelved but I am still curious)

Two. I have a level 16 SD/7 fighter/4 rogue I am reasonably happy with and don't need to relevel currently. However there are vague threats of redoing the class completely. Will there be another round of SD relevels later if the class is completely reworked or is this my only chance?

Thank you...

Yes to both questions.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Was 9 SD considered too easy to achieve on certain builds? I do appreciate at least keeping it on some form though! I have a lot of fun heavy SD builds so it was nice of you all not to completely nuke it.

Keep in mind that the update says that HIPS will be totally removed from Arelith upon a full rework of the class.

ah I missed that.. i should probably hold off on a lot of my shadow dancer concepts then. If i had someone i been really slowly playing.. that has the dodge and mobilitiy feats but now SD lvls yet by the time full rework happens, will I get still get rebuild?

[Xerah]

Was 9 SD considered too easy to achieve on certain builds? I do appreciate at least keeping it on some form though! I have a lot of fun heavy SD builds so it was nice of you all not to completely nuke it.

Keep in mind that the update says that HIPS will be totally removed from Arelith upon a full rework of the class.

ah I missed that.. i should probably hold off on a lot of my shadow dancer concepts then. If i had someone i been really slowly playing.. that has the dodge and mobilitiy feats but now SD lvls yet by the time full rework happens, will I get still get rebuild?

If you don't log in with them until then, you will still get a rebuild. But the next rebuild would be tied to just shadowdancer levels.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

Keep in mind that the update says that HIPS will be totally removed from Arelith upon a full rework of the class.

ah I missed that.. i should probably hold off on a lot of my shadow dancer concepts then. If i had someone i been really slowly playing.. that has the dodge and mobilitiy feats but now SD lvls yet by the time full rework happens, will I get still get rebuild?

If you don't log in with them until then, you will still get a rebuild. But the next rebuild would be tied to just shadowdancer levels.

Thankyou so much for you swift replies.. i was actaully thinking of logging on and playing them tonight, they already have said feats.. I think (not sure cause i havent played a month with COVID stuff going) but not sure they will actually get their shadow dancer lvls till months from now due to lots of reasons that won't help getting into right now. If they do have said feats, i am safe to just leave them shelved for another month then if I am that slow at lvling my weird projects then?

[Xerah]

If you don't have SD levels, then it shouldn't be an issue to level right into them.

Yeah, you can leave them shelved for now too.

[JoeKickAss]

There has been plenty of thought put into this update.

Shadowmage loot is all stuff to improve sneak. That being so, will they be reworked? If hips wasnt important and your still expected to be sneaky, why are they getting evo and transmutation spells? What's the new meta with all these new spells? Considering many shadowmages invest in hide/ms and are now getting a load of new spell rules, why cant they relevel? If SD is being reworked and SD levels count to SM caster levels, will SM be reworked too? If not, why not? If they will be reworked in the future with SD, why bring in the changes now when you need 21 SM levels for hips and none of the problems with hips affected pure SM builds? Why not wait until the SD class is reworked?

As I said, it seems poorly thought out.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I feel like some people are just figuring out how broken HiPs is and that is actually surprising, since its never not been broken lol. Maybe next we go for the characters that not only create a "fishing for 20" meta but also thrive the most in it because they have the most attacks per round to get those twenties. Then perhaps we can look at the combination of "-pray" plus everyone being able to reach +40 saves in EVERY save, as if the combination of having -pray plus one save that only hits in the 30s per class would not still make most spells too risky to use. Admittedly neither of those aspects of Arelith unbalance break the game quite like HiPs, but either balance matters or it doesn't .

[Xerah]

There has been plenty of thought put into this update.

Shadowmage loot is all stuff to improve sneak. That being so, will they be reworked? If hips wasnt important and your still expected to be sneaky, why are they getting evo and transmutation spells? What's the new meta with all these new spells? Considering many shadowmages invest in hide/ms and are now getting a load of new spell rules, why cant they relevel? If SD is being reworked and SD levels count to SM caster levels, will SM be reworked too? If not, why not?

There is no shadowmage loot.

You can be sneaky if you want to be. There is no expectation. That is on the player to do it as they wish for the character.

They can relevel.

SDs are not being reworked into SM levels.

You're all over the place here. It's clear you just want HiPS and continue to use it but that's not the path forward, nor is it something that is desired by the people running the server. The reasons why have been well outlined. You can disagree with those reasons if you wish

[JoeKickAss]

There is no shadowmage loot.

You can be sneaky if you want to be. There is no expectation. That is on the player to do it as they wish for the character.

They can relevel.

SDs are not being reworked into SM levels.

You're all over the place here. It's clear you just want HiPS and continue to use it but that's not the path forward, nor is it something that is desired by the people running the server. The reasons why have been well outlined. You can disagree with those reasons if you wish

My questions were rhetorical, even if you believe shadowmages have no loot.

I was attracted to SM because it had a funky RP rich meta appeared an attempt by devs to make a pickpocketing mage-rogue viable. It seemed, to me, to be a class suited for rogue/mage builds i wanted to try as it had nice RP potebtial. SM was fun without being particularly powerful as others who've played the class would attest.

Im quite happy to retake levels if there is another clear meta emerging from the changes. There isn't. It's clearly in a place of flux and will be changed again soon, not least because the link with SD is being ignored and broken down completely.

[ReverentBlade]

Please don't let SD become the new monk. I had to roll a beloved character because the incessant tinkering with monk became intolerable.

The word "rework" fills me with dread rather than excitement.

[Xerah]

There is no loot designed specifically for shadow mages. I don't know what you are getting at here.

If you took shadow mage to be a "pickpocket rogue/wizard" then you missed the entire point and lore of the class. At no point did any single person on the Dev team view it to be anything resembling that.

No further changes are planned for shadow mage.

The link to SD is not being ignored. There were attempts to link them in the past, but those were removed a long time ago because the interaction was too buggy to be reliably counted on.

My questions were rhetorical

If you do not wish to have discussions in good faith, then please keep your rhetorical questions to yourself.

[Kuma]

It is painful to see how this mechanical change can hurt the story lines.

i dont really see how not being able to activate your busted cloaking device irretrievably harms plotlines and setting integrity

[Dreams]

It is painful to see how this mechanical change can hurt the story lines.

i dont really see how not being able to activate your busted cloaking device irretrievably harms plotlines and setting integrity

Damnit, Kuma. What about our plans for you to play my father? How's he going to vanish now?