HIPS (SM & SD)

[Jagel]

There is an unfortunate thing where awards get caught in class reworks. A relevel might not be enough to salvage a concept in these cases.

[SilverSnake]

Perhaps im wrong but im quite sure you need just 20 CL to use IGMS to its full effect , to produce 20 missiles that is . Not to mention for a single target you dont need more than 10 missiles which would require CL 10 to produce . To get the seven darkbolt bolts you need Cl 14 . Lowering Evocation's Cl by 6 bassicaly does nothing . Shadowmages would be as good for raw damage as normal mages. Even a Pm with more Cl penalties would be able to use those spell to huge effect.

[Edens_Fall]

So for my own curiosity:

1) Will PC "remakes" be offered or just "relevels"? As it is I would need to change the starting stats, gifts, and feats.

2) With the loss of Hips is there any real reason to take SD levels? Yeah the shadow is nice I guess, but not useful for PvP. Will SD be getting any love to make it worth keeping or am I not seeing something about the class?

Keep in mind I'm not a build expert by any means .

[Jagel]

SD still gets HiPS but at lvl 11. When it goes away they will, by the way Garr and the team explains, get other features and tweaks to compensate.

[Edens_Fall]

Thats good then!

[Drowboy]

Perhaps im wrong but im quite sure you need just 20 CL to use IGMS to its full effect , to produce 20 missiles that is . Not to mention for a single target you dont need more than 10 missiles which would require CL 10 to produce . To get the seven darkbolt bolts you need Cl 14 . Lowering Evocation's Cl by 6 bassicaly does nothing . Shadowmages would be as good for raw damage as normal mages. Even a Pm with more Cl penalties would be able to use those spell to huge effect.

That's what's being missed, really. They're as effective as any other mage now, barring high SR targets (use darkbolt) with IGMS, and have hellball/gruin access as well

and they can't be outed by someone going "oh you aren't a sharran cast magic missile" anymore

and they get a bonus to half the spellbook. They're better than baseline at the least.

[Bunnysmack]

I'm a little confused about the part of the wording for the Shadow Mage update regarding buffs to their three main spell schools...

- Enchantment, necromancy, and illusion spells get plus 2 CL in addition to DC

Does the update add only a +2 to CL and the DCs remain the same, OR does the update also add an additional +2 to the DCs of those three schools (which would mean a cumulative +4 DC, after adding their original +2 from the path)?

[Tempedius]

The loss of cl rather than the barring of a school brings shadow mage more in line with 3-3.5E pnp. I for one support this change, and welcome more changes that do the same.

[magistrasa]

you know, i have to admit... i'm almost sad that i'm not able to complain about shadow mage being trash-tier anymore. whining about how bad the path was honestly brought me a strange sort of comfort. like, in an ever-changing world, there was a sense of safety in security in knowing that shadow mage would never get an update and never be good. but now that's changed, and the foundation i've built my sanity upon has crumbled beneath me. i dont know what to do with myself anymore. i dont know how to go on.

jokes aside:
it's hard to feel any trust when i see xerah say "this is totally all part of the plan guys" when the rollout for update info has been staggered and even self-contradictory at various points. first shadow mage loses hips, then hours later they get evo at -6 cl to it and trans. shortly after that, it's announced that their trans casting is perfectly normal actually. and thats to say nothing about the confusion behind rebuilds. pretty much no one ive spoken to has any confidence that this form of the shadow mage will last long at all. and thats... i dunno, probably kinda bad. i hope the team is taking that into serious consideration, though i wont presume to give you guys any direction on how to deal with it.

okay, now jokes inside again:
i'm just holding out hope that this is a buff put in right before the path is removed as an option and all existing shadow mages get legacy'd. that'd be hilarious.

[Bunnysmack]

you know, i have to admit... i'm almost sad that i'm not able to complain about shadow mage being trash-tier anymore. whining about how bad the path was honestly brought me a strange sort of comfort. like, in an ever-changing world, there was a sense of safety in security in knowing that shadow mage would never get an update and never be good. but now that's changed, and the foundation i've built my sanity upon has crumbled beneath me. i dont know what to do with myself anymore. i dont know how to go on.

To quote a certain Shadow Mage I know and love: "This too, is loss."

[Xerah]

None of those changes went live, regardless of how many announcements there were. The plan was to change hips and then some things were added afterwards to get it to the right place. This is the right approach.

I guess the alternative could have been to EGO up and say everything is fine when it's not. Based on the complaining (from more than one person about it) maybe that's the best approach. Or we have to end up in decision paralysis since there is so much stress to get things "right" the first time. I would think it's better to be more humble and listen to feedback rather than maintain that "trust" you say you don't have in us. In my opinion, that's what legitimately should garner trust.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Is SM in the right place now? I don't know; seems to be getting too many benefits without really giving up much for it.

[Arigard]

If EVO has been added back to SM and that then means Hellball/Gruin, then this is a straight up mega buff to SM. There's literally no reason to play any other kind of mage outside of SM if you can slap epic EVO epic feats on it.

Some of the most powerful SM builds, particularly the PM variants, never even got HIPS to begin with, so the HIPS nerf was never a problem to them and they are only massively benefiting from EVO being added.

I really think this change has been hastily applied and not thought through. If they were able to use EVO but not the epic evo spells at a lower CL (Or the EVO epic spells were gated behind say 21 levels of SM), then that would perhaps be a fairer trade off, but from the perspective of someone looking at making an arcane caster, there is very little reason to not go for some kind of SM/PM variant at this point. It only gets positive cookies that work well together that other wizards (and especially non evil wizards do not get).

[SilverSnake]

If EVO has been added back to SM and that then means Hellball/Gruin, then this is a straight up mega buff to SM. There's literally no reason to play any other kind of mage outside of SM if you can slap epic EVO epic feats on it.

Some of the most powerful SM builds, particularly the PM variants, never even got HIPS to begin with, so the HIPS nerf was never a problem to them and they are only massively benefiting from EVO being added.

I really think this change has been hastily applied and not thought through. If they were able to use EVO but not the epic evo spells at a lower CL (Or the EVO epic spells were gated behind say 21 levels of SM), then that would perhaps be a fairer trade off, but from the perspective of someone looking at making an arcane caster, there is very little reason to not go for some kind of SM/PM variant at this point. It only gets positive cookies that work well together that other wizards (and especially non evil wizards do not get).

Exactly that!

[SilverSnake]

If Shadow Wave gets Evocations on top of the ''shady replacers'' (darkbolt which is easily one of the best evocation spells) then what's the point of not being a shadowdancer? This really feels ( at least to me as i cannot claim to be the beyond and all, not to mention its easy to see many disagree with my opinions here ) like it made the non-path mage quite redundant. Now as a let's say a Shadow Wave Palemaster i will be able to use Issacs and high Dc Death Magic on top. While also having the acces to an already great evocation spell such as the darkbolt which is arguably better than Issac's in the first place.

Your CL for Isaacs' on a shadow weave palemaster would be (assuming you do "Ye olde SM 11, PM 16, bard/ranger 3 dip"):
Wiz CL: 11
PM CL: 8
Ranger CL: 0
- CL for evocation spells: -6

Total CL for Isaacs: 13.

I hope I don't have to explain why that is problematic.

Low Cl for Evocation spells is hardly problematic , especially when Darkbolt and IGMS is concerned . Both will work very well with low CL . 10 CL is what you really need for IGMS with one target , 14 CL For Darkbolt.

[Bunnysmack]

None of those changes went live, regardless of how many announcements there were. The plan was to change hips and then some things were added afterwards to get it to the right place. This is the right approach.

I guess the alternative could have been to EGO up and say everything is fine when it's not. Based on the complaining (from more than one person about it) maybe that's the best approach. Or we have to end up in decision paralysis since there is so much stress to get things "right" the first time. I would think it's better to be more humble and listen to feedback rather than maintain that "trust" you say you don't have in us. In my opinion, that's what legitimately should garner trust.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Is SM in the right place now? I don't know; seems to be getting too many benefits without really giving up much for it.

As the Devs and DMs tend to get far more negative feedback than positive feedback I will go ahead and fight against the tide by saying I appreciate the mindset of the team in regards to all this. It's an extremely difficult set of balance considerations, but you are making decisions and weighing community feedback and insights. I appreciate your work, even if I don't always agree with the end decisions. Disagreement is okay. There is no perfect standard to tweaking game balance, or if there is, it would likely end up with a very bland and uninspired result.

Thanks for listening, thanks for thinking, thanks for acting.

If EVO has been added back to SM and that then means Hellball/Gruin, then this is a straight up mega buff to SM. There's literally no reason to play any other kind of mage outside of SM if you can slap epic EVO epic feats on it.

I think the easiest balance fix here is to bar shadowmages from taking any spell focus feats in Evocation. This would make a lot of sense, thematically, for a path that inherently has trouble using evocation in the first place.

With this change, they can't use feats to counteract the -6 DC, and they can't safely take Hellball and Greater Ruin. This lets them still use IGMS, sure, but otherwise prevents much in the way of scary evo-combo Shadow Mages.

[garrbear758]

Thank you for the feedback everyone and keep it coming as I am reading all of it.

One thing that I badly need to point out though is that lesser restoration removes the lower spell resistance effect, even from the breach line of spells, so "just mord's lol" isn't going to work on someone prepared.

[Edens_Fall]

Well if we are speaking on ideas, might I suggest SD's "One with the Shadow" and +1 to hide AND move silently per level taken? I have always used stealth (hips) to escape and found it a bit frustrating to Hips and then get spotted by "listen" as I try to flee. If we are steering away from Hips a boost to base stats would be nice. That way one can stealth into an area and not fear so much about being heard walking in or out. If that makes sense?

Side note: Thanks to the many Devs that try to keep things fair and fun for us all!

[UilliamNebel]

Honestly, taking away from pure ranger build is just moderating with too broad a brush, and a bad poorly weighed out infliction of externality to other players.

Stop gimmicky multi class builds, target specific players doing this. Don't destroy something that work's great for RP immersion, and when used responsibly adds to the play experience of some classes. Punish 'Roll Play' by targeting those who cheese this way, not roleplay for those that are good faith actors. Thinking like this is why traps were made useless trash on PWs for years.

[garrbear758]

The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy
Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa.

Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game.

Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse roleplayer if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically roleplayed better than an optimized one, and vice versa.

(I admit that there are some diehards on both sides -- the RP fanatics who refuse to optimize as if strong characters were the mark of the Devil and the min/max munchkins who couldn't RP their way out of a paper bag without setting it on fire -- though I see these as extreme examples. The vast majority of people are in between, and thus the generalizations hold. The key word is 'automatically')

Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's gameplay. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Roleplaying deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other.

Claiming that an optimizer cannot roleplay (or is participating in a playstyle that isn't supportive of roleplaying) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy.

[Bunnysmack]

Honestly, taking away from pure ranger build is just moderating with too broad a brush, and a bad poorly weighed out infliction of externality to other players.

Stop gimmicky multi class builds, target specific players doing this. Don't destroy something that work's great for RP immersion, and when used responsibly adds to the play experience of some classes. Punish 'Roll Play' by targeting those who cheese this way, not roleplay for those that are good faith actors. Thinking like this is why traps were made useless trash on PWs for years.

The issue isn't one of gimmicky powergamed multi-class builds versus more mainstream setups, it's an issue with the mechanic of HiPS itself as a coding problem. The fact people can hide with it isn't the issue. The problem is that it auto-cancels any ability/action being qued up to target the HiPSer prior to any detection roll being made. There is no opposed roll to counter that, it always happens even if the opponent has 200 in spot/listen. See a mage is casting a spell at you? Auto-cancel it. One of the biggest issues with this, is it isn't merely a problem of people intentionally "cheesing" it, it's how the ability functions for everyone, even if they are ignorant of the exploit.

I can certainly understand the frustration of the many members of the community who have relied on, built around, and even made roleplay focused on HiPS, it's really unfortunate that the ability cancels action ques like this, but let's have a feedback discussion based on the main issue. Saying this was only a matter of certain people using it in cheesing tactics or builds is really creating an inaccurate dialogue for why this update occurred. From what I've read of the discourse around this update, it's not that your frustration is being ignored, but more that there wasn't really any gentle or surgical way to enact a fix for this problem.

[Kishti]

Is it possible to code another HIPS that just works as being behind cover when activated and replace that with the SDs regular HIPS? Or would that also break the queue?

[UilliamNebel]

Saying this was only a matter of certain people using it in cheesing tactics or builds is really creating an inaccurate dialogue for why this update occurred. From what I've read of the discourse around this update, it's not that your frustration is being ignored, but more that there wasn't really any gentle or surgical way to enact a fix for this problem.

Yet, from everything I've read, that is the most logical thing to infer here for removing it. Was it being cheesed? Yes. Was it being exploited? Yes. Was it being done for 'roll play' gain? Overwhelmingly so. Was it a serious and huge problem for ignorance of it's use in PvE and RP? No, no not one account or laying out of why it was removed even touches on that with a sound use case I have read.

I'm sorry but this scenario just reads like a NWN post of a decade ago for why all traps are bad and make rogues OP in PvP (or to grief) so an entire system of the game has to be tossed out, or so dwindled down that is becomes pointless. It is a broad brush stroke, that creates an externality on far more to a greater degree of force, than it was a problem itself causing without just no warning bans for those using it clearly as an exploit.

Honestly, it is a PvPer cross to bear, sucks for them, I admit. But just don't engage with, or RP with players that exploit and 'roll play', just let them get the social ostracizing they deserve rather than diminish the game for what is a majority of good faith actors.

[Drowboy]

Exploiting (even unintentionally, even forced through the game engine's code for HIPS) isn't magically okay just because it's PvE.

[UilliamNebel]

Exploiting (even unintentionally, even forced through the game engine's code for HIPS) isn't magically okay just because it's PvE.

Well, depends, do we cut off shop lifter's hands for taking a candy bar? I mean, not okay, and done intentionally. That said the response is usually in proportion to it, especially if it is unintentional. Wrong or not, is so low a bar here as to be fallacious as a starting point for addressing it.

[Aren]

If Shadow Wave gets Evocations on top of the ''shady replacers'' (darkbolt which is easily one of the best evocation spells) then what's the point of not being a shadowdancer? This really feels ( at least to me as i cannot claim to be the beyond and all, not to mention its easy to see many disagree with my opinions here ) like it made the non-path mage quite redundant. Now as a let's say a Shadow Wave Palemaster i will be able to use Issacs and high Dc Death Magic on top. While also having the acces to an already great evocation spell such as the darkbolt which is arguably better than Issac's in the first place.

Your CL for Isaacs' on a shadow weave palemaster would be (assuming you do "Ye olde SM 11, PM 16, bard/ranger 3 dip"):
Wiz CL: 11
PM CL: 8
Ranger CL: 0
- CL for evocation spells: -6

Total CL for Isaacs: 13.

I hope I don't have to explain why that is problematic.

Low Cl for Evocation spells is hardly problematic , especially when Darkbolt and IGMS is concerned . Both will work very well with low CL . 10 CL is what you really need for IGMS with one target , 14 CL For Darkbolt.

You do realise that there's a hat with 26 SR on it, right?