Currently, Ioun stones are reusuable one-per-day perma version of Skleen, and according to the announcement, "Harder to make", but...
The DC is 26. The craft point required is typically the amount it take to craft a single gear. And while Greater catalyst is most expensive component, the rest of ingredients are fairly easy to acquire.
Pls buff DC, else skleen economy die forever.
The UMD is trivial. Anyone can just ignore the UMD since almost most builds usually involves at least 12 to 15 UMD in general.
Seriously. Just buff the DC.
Imagine getting an old forum account back. that's 2019 - this is 2020.
More builds are not using UMD after the Lore change, and I already know at least two of my PCs have no use for their 'assigned' Ioun Stone and will continue using Skleens.
Irongron wrote:
[...] the super-secret Arelith development roadmap is a post apocalyptic wasteland populated with competing tribes of hand-bombard wielding techno-giants, and strewn with the bones of long dead elves.
Skleens certainly won't be dead for any of my characters, because none of the stones actually offer much of a benefit to them. Example, my druid can use the wisdom stone but is already capped at 40 wisdom. Would still love to have it just for the RP value though! My wizard can only use the int stone, despite being capped at 42 int.
Skleen will still be useful because everyone can use them, and more than just their class related ones. CON skleen will still be a big seller, as will STR and DEX.
Love it or hate it, over the last years I've very much tried to increase the diversity of characters and class combinations.
Its not just the lore change, but the increased utility of skills across the board and the addition of new classes and abilities. UMD is far from the ubiquitous skill it once was, but must also retain some decent utility.
Personally I think this helps give the old '15' investment more use beyond wands. Also, speaking as a more casual (and thus poorer player) I never bothered with skleens, they were too expensive for too small a benefit. I'd be happy to take the UMD so as not to bother with them.
Oh, and ioin stones are just a cool DnD thing. It's nice to have them.
Dusty Rose should be all classes. It makes little sense to toss it on paladin, which is bizarre imo since paladin has no real idiom that defends making it unique to defense.
Might-N-Magic wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 8:30 am
Dusty Rose should be all classes. It makes little sense to toss it on paladin, which is bizarre imo since paladin has no real idiom that defends making it unique to defense.
Should at least add it to blackguard so we are helping out divine dips equally.
While I really like the intention behind this update, I don't understand why there needs to be class limitations at all. What this does, in my opinion, is hurt less popular builds and necessitate future item updates to support upcoming class additions and/or overhauls. What about DEX-based Fighters or Zen Archers, for instance?
Quite a few builds might want to use a different ioun stone than the current options allow for, and not all will have the UMD ranks to do so. Especially not before high epics, which means play time remains a factor.
Of course one might argue that skleens continue to exist and work for those characters - but if this update is meant to help casual players, why force them to play a "mainstream" build to make use of it?
I find this change to be a missed opportunity to be honest.
Addition of Craftable dnd ion stones is good idea yes, but doubling on Skleen effects which serve as a sustained consumable sell for Alchemy crafters is not.
The addition of stones in such form will result in decrease of opportunities for alchemist as those who will be able will default to having ion stones instead of Skleens for obvious reasons. We need more consumables in the crafting tables that's for sure but consumables that people want to stock up and use continuously not one-sell items as that promotes the user-crafter-supplier RP.
As for the Ion stones implementation and dnd. I would want to suggest implementing them in a way as they are in dnd:
Make them store spells and be able to trigger that spell effect with a console command (not a standard action).
Build up separate Ion Stones per magic school, allow to store a spell and trigger once per day/cd (choose appropriate).
Store spell up to lvl 6 for example (yes Heal too), ensure that the spell has to be casted (no scrolls, Wands) on the stone to promote RP.
Allow to change the stored spell by recasting on the stone as well.
Unlock stones from any UMD requirements.
Allow certain characters to utilize more then one stone (rogues, Svirfs, High level casters, Loremasters).
Add a % chance for stone to break on trigger.
And ensure that dc to craft and materials required are beyond a "dip" range of art crafting.
miesny_jez wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 10:16 am
As for the Ion stones implementation and dnd. I would want to suggest implementing them in a way as they are in dnd:
Make them store spells and be able to trigger that spell effect with a console command (not a standard action).
Build up separate Ion Stones per magic school, allow to store a spell and trigger once per day/cd (choose appropriate).
Store spell up to lvl 6 for example (yes Heal too), ensure that the spell has to be casted (no scrolls, Wands) on the stone to promote RP.
Allow to change the stored spell by recasting on the stone as well.
Unlock stones from any UMD requirements.
Allow certain characters to utilize more then one stone (rogues, Svirfs, High level casters, Loremasters).
Add a % chance for stone to break on trigger.
And ensure that dc to craft and materials required are beyond a "dip" range of art crafting.
Thanks for Your time.
When we reopen suggestion box, by all means suggest this, but for now I had zero intention to create a whole new complex scripted system, merely to create craftable ioin stones as they appear in default NwN, albeit with class restrictions.
I might look at the skleen recipes to make it a little simpler, but won't be revisiting this beyond that in the near future.
Actually let me rephrase that. UMD might be trivial for some, but most definitely a good number of builds lack it. Also probably worth mentioning what sort of AC dusty rose is, because if it's deflection that essentially gives nothing. If it's shield ( as I heard it to be ) then it's just more cheese for monks.
Is Dusty Rose now supposed to encourage 2h paladins? If so, why not open it for blackguards as well? I see no thematic relation between the Dusty Rose Ioun Stone and the paladin class and it seems purely based on mechanical interest in making 2h paladins a little bit more appealing.
UMD is still a very common skill among most builds, and if not, then they'll probably have at least 1 class that can use an Ioun Stone, so they'll adjust their gear accordingly and this DOES kill skleens economy anyway so I really think we should remove these class restrictions entirely at this point and make the items much harder to make. Add a rare gem like Star Sapphire or Rogue Stone and it gets interesting.
KriegEternal wrote:
Their really missing mords and some minor flavor things.
Tarkus the dog wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:37 am
UMD is not trivial and not all builds have it.
Actually let me rephrase that. UMD might be trivial for some, but most definitely a good number of builds lack it. Also probably worth mentioning what sort of AC dusty rose is, because if it's deflection that essentially gives nothing. If it's shield ( as I heard it to be ) then it's just more cheese for monks.
I always thought the ac from dusty rose stacked like fighter ac bonuses, because otherwise...anyways, could be wrong, I never used them, that was just the assumption.
As for skleens, I think they still get used. I will still have a stack of strength ones on every 8 strength wizard I make going forward which was the only time I used them anyways.
Having read the post more carefully and thought about it a bit more, i can really see Irongron's logic here. Skleens stick around for the simple reason that these are class locked. Most classes max out their main stat on gear to prevent dispel anyways. Especially casters as it impacts their spell slots. The only few classes that directly benefit from this on a secondary stat would be monk and spellsword for bonus on AC and damage, and Barb and Ranger as con is not their attack stat. However, enough people dip things like bard, rogue, ranger, and fighter that everyone should get some use out of it, to be honest. Allowing them to stack with a skleen would keep skleens more prominent but maybe make the whole dynamic too powerful.
I would advocate for changing the recipe to make it tough. Art crafting needed some high end love as most of the gear they can produce is very niche, in contrast with tailoring and smithing which have much wider appear. However, at 26, it just isn't high end enough to really benefit deep art crafting dives. Gem dust is also ridiculously easy to come by with the new recipes. I would:
1.) Raise DC to 36
2.) Move from gem dust to gem stones. Stones get used much more rarely and this would be a thematic shift for a number of reasons. a.) This is art crafting not alchemy so whole stones make more sense. 2.) Dust is used in the skleens, for the real deal you should need something more. 3.) Dust is insanely easy to get now. Stonesare much more costly, 2 stones vs 10 dust of any given uncut gem.
I've always hated skleens. They're annoying, and they have no default description that states what they do, so unless the crafter was nice enough to rename them, I always had to look up what they even do because I could never remember what was what. Sometimes skleens were mislabeled because even the alchemist making them didn't really know what was what, so I'd waste money on a skleen for a stat I didn't need. They're my least favorite consumable and I rarely bother with them. Yes, that is all probably my fault for having multicolored marbles in my skull instead of a brain - but that's the way it's always been for me.
So this change is pretty much the best thing ever, and I am so grateful for how dumbed down the system is for people like me. The less often I have to have the wiki open in another tab to double-check some nonsense mechanic, the more time I have to spend on actually playing and having fun. So big thanks to Irongron for this one. This update only made me happy.
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magistrasa wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 1:39 pm
I've always hated skleens. They're annoying, and they have no default description that states what they do, so unless the crafter was nice enough to rename them, I always had to look up what they even do because I could never remember what was what. Sometimes skleens were mislabeled because even the alchemist making them didn't really know what was what, so I'd waste money on a skleen for a stat I didn't need. They're my least favorite consumable and I rarely bother with them. Yes, that is all probably my fault for having multicolored marbles in my skull instead of a brain - but that's the way it's always been for me.
So this change is pretty much the best thing ever, and I am so grateful for how dumbed down the system is for people like me. The less often I have to have the wiki open in another tab to double-check some nonsense mechanic, the more time I have to spend on actually playing and having fun. So big thanks to Irongron for this one. This update only made me happy.
Long live skleens. Long live Ioun stones. Both have their place depending on builds. UMD isn't a necessity for many builds since a while now and I am glad that's not viewed as mandatory by more now.
Skleens are far from dead in use, but may well have less value with regards to the player economy. Similar to many of the products of Herbalism, more cost effective alternatives that some (but not all) of the player base can use tends to create goods that are harder to move.
Is this a bad thing? No. Not in my opinion. Alchemy has a LOT of money-printing products that can be produced even after skleens start becoming a far more speculative good to produce. QoL changes that help the player base bankrupt themselves less on consumables they need constantly are generally nice changes to see in my opinion
The message brought to you by someone playing a character that uses alchemy sales to make most of their income
Last edited by Bunnysmack on Thu Mar 11, 2021 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:41 am
These class restrictions are strange.
Is Dusty Rose now supposed to encourage 2h paladins? If so, why not open it for blackguards as well? I see no thematic relation between the Dusty Rose Ioun Stone and the paladin class and it seems purely based on mechanical interest in making 2h paladins a little bit more appealing.
UMD is still a very common skill among most builds, and if not, then they'll probably have at least 1 class that can use an Ioun Stone, so they'll adjust their gear accordingly and this DOES kill skleens economy anyway so I really think we should remove these class restrictions entirely at this point and make the items much harder to make. Add a rare gem like Star Sapphire or Rogue Stone and it gets interesting.
It would totally make the stones useless to add something like Star Saphire or rogue stone. The stones would be so expensive many would simply stick with skleens. You could buy alot of skleens for the price of one Star Saphire.
AstralUniverse wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 11:41 am
These class restrictions are strange.
Is Dusty Rose now supposed to encourage 2h paladins? If so, why not open it for blackguards as well? I see no thematic relation between the Dusty Rose Ioun Stone and the paladin class and it seems purely based on mechanical interest in making 2h paladins a little bit more appealing.
UMD is still a very common skill among most builds, and if not, then they'll probably have at least 1 class that can use an Ioun Stone, so they'll adjust their gear accordingly and this DOES kill skleens economy anyway so I really think we should remove these class restrictions entirely at this point and make the items much harder to make. Add a rare gem like Star Sapphire or Rogue Stone and it gets interesting.
It would totally make the stones useless to add something like Star Saphire or rogue stone. The stones would be so expensive many would simply stick with skleens. You could buy alot of skleens for the price of one Star Saphire.
Agreed. Though some added cost/ingredient wouldn't go amiss to cover their reusability. Just not something like that expensive.
