Suggestion to fix e-dodge bypass exploit

[jomonog]

Not sure whether i should report this in the bugs forum but as its a fairly well know nwn bug I didnt think it necessary.

The issue which you can plainly see from combat logs is that the use of knockdown (or called shot) bypasses e-dodge such that a failed knockdown attempt results in e-dodge triggering when it should not. This allows the next successful attack in the combat round to hit when in reality it should have been evaded by e-dodge.

PvP'er use this tactic alot against opponents with e-dodge, spamming knockdown attempts on the first attack of each round to effectively bypass the defender's edodge for that round. Its a very similar exploit to the past use of HiPs by players that would otherwise have no chance of succeeding the hide check in the knowledge that the engine limitation would act as though HiPs had succeeded anyway.

Assuming this is a hardoded nwn issue that cant be easily fixed (like HiPs), rather than removing the knockdown and called shot feats entirely , I think a more suitable workaround would be to just make it so attacking characters cant use knockdown or called shot attacks against defenders with e-dodge. This is obviously not ideal but probably a better solution that entire removal of the feats as is apparently happening with HiPs.

[Kuma]

I think a more suitable workaround would be to just make it so attacking characters cant use knockdown or called shot attacks against defenders with e-dodge. This is obviously not ideal but probably a better solution that entire removal of the feats as is apparently happening with HiPs.

this sounds more difficult to do than whatever fix you imagine is possible

unless you're implying edodge grants KD immunity

which is not exactly better

[Lexx]

I'd have to agree with Kuma here. You're effectively saying Edodge should give Knockdown and called shot immunity which honestly would be worse.

[Kalopsia]

Your suggested solution equals granting DEX chars essentially infinite discipline for free (by preventing people from using most Discipline-targeting abilities against them), which is not a balanced approach in my opinion.

If Epic Dodge having skill-based counterplay really is an issue, perhaps the feat should be looked at instead, and turned into a dodge AC bonus or whatever.

[Good Character]

For an ability that lets you automatically dodge the highest AB hit, which is usually 25% of all the attacks a character has on most builds, I'm not sure you'll find much support for what you're asking for.

The feat itself reads like it should only block the first attack of a round rather than the first successful one, anyhow.

[AstralUniverse]

If Epic Dodge having skill-based counterplay really is an issue, perhaps the feat should be looked at instead, and turned into a dodge AC bonus or whatever.

it would nerf some e-dodger builds which hit near the dodge ac cap (which I'm not really against such a nerf). What if E-dodge was simply +3 dodge modifier and only required... say.. Improved evasion and to be lvl 21+? I think it's an interesting direction we should look into. Much better suggestion than to give e-dodgers immunity to niche combat feats most characters dont have and e-dodge is pretty op imo so I wouldnt even consider it anything other than a legitimate (costly) counter-play at this point.

[Arigard]

Just remove epic dodge, problem solved.

Seriously though, Epic Dodge is easily the strongest epic feat available. There's nothing that comes close to it from a strength perspective and it offers stupid levels of defense to high AC dex builds.

Zaphiel made a program that simulated chance of hitting an opponent with EDodge, assuming they are outside of your AB range (which is most dex builds with Edodge in I.E). Concealment factored in.

TARGET AC 70
TOTAL ATTACK 3000000
TOTAL HIT 10424 (0.35% of total attacks)
TOTAL MISS 2989576 (99.65% of total attacks)
* CONCEALED ATTACKS 720369 (24.10% of total misses)
* EPIC DODGE 103606 (3.47% of total misses)
TOTAL CRITICAL HIT 0 (0.00% of total hits)

0.35% of attacks land over 3 million attacks, assuming 5 apr + haste. IMO edodge shouldn't even exist on Arelith, it's that powerful an ability....

So whilst it is a bug, I find it hard for my heart to bleed for the E-Dodgers getting hit by lucky 20 rolls after knockdown. Either you use knockdown to force a 5% chance to hit someone, or you literally never hit them and might as well just roll over and give up.

Neither end of the spectrum makes for fun gameplay, but should it get fixed? Yeah probably, but I don't think giving blanket immunity to discipline checks is the way.

[jomonog]

I kind of expected this reaction but using knockdown to bypass e-dodge by characters that don't have the AB to hit is no less an exploit than was using Hips on characters that dont have the hide to pass spot checks in order to clear the action queue and flatfoot.

If its not a bug then i'd accept doing nothing is the right approach, but if it is a bug (which I believe it is), I think it should be fixed or at least some workaround put in place like was done for the Hips bug, rather than just ignored based on subjective bias of pvp balance.

[Kuma]

I kind of expected this reaction but using knockdown to bypass e-dodge by characters that don't have the AB to hit is no less an exploit than was using Hips on characters that dont have the hide to pass spot checks in order to clear the action queue and flatfoot.

If its not a bug then i'd accept doing nothing is the right approach, but if it is a bug (which I believe it is), I think it should be fixed or at least some workaround put in place like was done for the Hips bug, rather than just ignored based on subjective bias of pvp balance.

to be fair the "workaround" for the hips bug was to just remove hips for all but a scant few

so i guess remove edodge or remove KD/CS

i don't think this is exactly as comparable.

edit: pvp balance isnt subjective; some people are more correct than others

[Rico_scorpion]

I kind of expected this reaction but using knockdown to bypass e-dodge by characters that don't have the AB to hit is no less an exploit than was using Hips on characters that dont have the hide to pass spot checks in order to clear the action queue and flatfoot.

If its not a bug then i'd accept doing nothing is the right approach, but if it is a bug (which I believe it is), I think it should be fixed or at least some workaround put in place like was done for the Hips bug, rather than just ignored based on subjective bias of pvp balance.

+1; even in the case of "objective bias of pvp balance". We shouldn't allow (or rely on) exploits or bugs to balance the game. If Edodge is an issue let's discuss edodge as a game mechanic, which is not at all the approach of this thread. Until Edodge is removed/tuned/nerfed/balanced/whatever balancewise, the current edodge has a crippling obvious bug that begs to be exploited. Same logic as hips applies.

Note: however granted the suggestion to fix was a bit "how to create 10 problems to fix 1" so yeah, there's that.

[TooManyPotatoes]

The issue with HIPS is actually an issue with how stealth is hardcoded. This is why cornersneaking still works. Think of HIPS as creating your own personal corner at the moment you press the button. If the goal was to remove exploits entirely, then you would have to argue for the complete removal of stealth.

In starcraft:brood war(a 20 year old game that is still played for real money) zerg is only competitive vs terran through an exploit allowing players to bunch up mutalisks on top of each other. Removing the exploit at this point would ruin the balance of the game and likely be impossible to restore without ruining the vs protoss matchup.

What im saying is, sometimes exploits are ok if he alternative fundamentally ruins the game. Games can even be balanced around exploits! But the removal of knockdown and called shot will cause an absolutely bonkers shake up of pvp. And you can bet the nerfs to many characters, especially dexers and stealthers would be significant.

That said, nothing wrong with a discussion regarding epic dodge. Maybe some good can come of it!

[-XXX-]

E-dodge and HIPS used to be disabled.

The team decided to open this can of worms. Fair enough, but I hope that they would finally see that these feats just aren't worth the trouble. Both represent a serious design space limitation even when they don't behave in a buggy fashion.

Looking at them purely from a game design perspective, these feats just aren't a good game element. Disabling and replacing them with something different might've been the most straightforward and the least headache inducing solution here.

[Ninjimmy]

Much better suggestion than to give e-dodgers immunity to niche combat feats most characters dont have

I generally agree with everything else here but I thought knockdown was almost certainly a lock in for most Strength Builds? It wouldn't even need to be improved, just the standard, one regular feat investment to counter an epic feat with multiple pre-reqs.

... I agree with literally everything else, I just think the sort of characters who E.Dodge is effective against are also probably the same pool who will have knockdown.

[Skibbles]

Isn't E-Dodge 'more or less' +5 permanent AC in most cases? That seems like it would fix it. There's probably something I'm overlooking but I think that's it at least at its core.

There's a ton of these little issues in Arelith, and I think many of them are just part of the balance.

Disarm is similarly goofy because you can just spam it over and over for a huge AB bonus vs anyone with a smaller weapon - even if you know full well you aren't going to successfully disarm there's still a fairly large AB bonus just to hit. Counterintuitive, but okay.

There's also whirlwind-flurry-c-c-c-combo.

Cleric Divine Power gives an extra attack at full AB as long as you specifically avoid having four attacks at base. This was one of the most shocking things I learned when I was new to Arelith.

Many of these things are just part of the module, and the disarm 'feature' is probably the most similar thing I can imagine to this thread.

[Kaeldre]

As I've come to understand it, many mechanics on the server are balanced around counters. This makes for a dynamic balance were abilities can be powerful against some but useless against others. In that same vein, why dont we grandfather the bug. This would retain the strength of epic dodge as an awesome feat, but make sure that there are answers. In short, we embrace epic dodge as a feat that is situationally good instead of consistently good.

[Jagel]

Isn't E-Dodge 'more or less' +5 permanent AC in most cases? That seems like it would fix it. There's probably something I'm overlooking but I think that's it at least at its core.

More less but only against the first attack from one enemy. So a flat +5 would be better when fighting several enemies.

The effective +5 is also a bit simplified since it’s also -1 apr when fighting 1v1.

[-XXX-]

Isn't E-Dodge 'more or less' +5 permanent AC in most cases? That seems like it would fix it. There's probably something I'm overlooking but I think that's it at least at its core.

In essence, yes. But at the same time not quite: there's always the roll of natural 20s and true strike is a thing as well - ED trumps those, an AC buff does not.

[Skibbles]

Ah, right. I knew I was missing several hugely obvious things.

Not a good solution then.

[garrbear758]

There is no way I’m letting e dodge get buffed.

[Dr. B]

E-dodge and HIPS used to be disabled.

E-dodge was never disabled.

It probably should be, though. It's up there with Dev Crit in terms of feats that are cancerously imbalanced on an RP server.

[CNS]

Just to clarify how bad edodge is.

Imagine if you gave a character 1,000,000 AC.

My template 5apr character has a 5% per attack to hit them. Or about a 23% chance of one attack in that round landing.

Edodge, as shown above reduces your chances of hitting in that round to, according to that simulation, 0.35%.

To put it another way, fighting the 1 million ac character should result in a hit in 4 rounds more likely than not, the edodger? 200 rounds to have a greater than 50% expectation of landing a single hit. 20 minutes of straight hasted swinging to have a 50% chance of hitting once.

I and everyone else who gets the maths would rather have current ac and edodge than a free 1 million AC.

And yes we can all concoct strategies and scenarios to hit. Just like the edodger can hold W while you do your thing or however else it can be countered. The point is this is not a healthy baseline scenario, where certain builds can just be immune to being punched in the face in normal circumstances.

Edited to fix a small maths mistake

[Quidix]

I think just replacing it with +3 AC would be a great move. The godlike AC + edodge isn't fun for anyone except the edodger.

[Eters]

To actually succeed in using that tactic in any effective way, your KD cannot be wasted on your highest AB attack, since that attack is usually the only one that has the most chances to hit the dexer with E-dodge sitting on their very high AC. Let us assume that you sacrifice your highest AB attack (first one) to do a knockdown at an AB penality, the E-dodge is consumed, your remaining attacks which are at a far lower AB will have no chance to do any significant damage to the E-dodger, even if you do roll a 20 and hit them with it since, you will most definitely not succeed the critical hit roll.

So for someone to actually use the KD "exploit" in an effective matter they have to cripple their AB and use a KD on their /last/ attack (before last if they're hasted) before uncrippling their AB the next round to hit the e-dodger that now has no e-dodge with their highest AB attack and hope it rolls well enough to do good damage to them.

In the heat of battle, this is impossible to do, and if someone can manage the skill and focus required to "bait" the e-dodge using knockdowns in such an effective matter I do not think that skill should be "nerfed" in any significant way. Because while the attacker is there, running the most impossible headache inducing scenario in their mind to beat your 1 feat that makes you neigh-untouchable, you're simply standing there.

The worst part is that by simply disengaging from combat, running away for a bit and reengaging (something any dexer can definitely pull off without too much of a risk) you reset the effect of said KD attempt made on you and allows you to once again bask in the safety of your shield-feat.

[Bunnysmack]

As far as I'm concerned from a balance perspective, EDodge only makes sense for rogue/assassin/SD builds (and not the div-dip varieties!). The standard ambush-style-dexers have some notable deficiencies in the defense department, and EDodge helps compensate. In return, their saves are usually made of tissue paper versus fort and will based effects. Therefore, EDodge in these circumstances is counterable.

Now, if you slap EDodge on a Monk or a Div-dip or, heaven's forbid, something that's a dex-based div-dip with monk levels (not sure if that actually pans out, haven't looked at build options in a while), and you get something that has obscene AC, obscene saves, blanket immunity to a lot of effects (yeah, cause monks being entirely mind immune AND immune to DPS at the same time is totally a good idea), and the resulting monster is a being that the overwhelming amount of the server can't hope to substantially harm.

The amount of EDodge monks with mind immunity that I've seen personally mop the floor, solo, with four level 30s or more with minimal injury is downright frustrating.

[Ork]

I'm good with removing edodge. Dex doesn't need more AC.