Suggestion to fix e-dodge bypass exploit

[Blossom]

Rogues desperately need e-dodge so please don't take it from them. Taking it away because of div-dip abuse seems like another case where div-dip abuse is the problem and the ones who don't abuse will be hurt most.

[Security_Blanket]

Epic Dodge wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't compounded with things like high AC, which of course is a byproduct of meeting the requirements for Epic Dodge. Then you have 50% conceal on top of that from Improved Invis or other similar abilities that are unaffected by Invisibility Purge. It should be reworked imho, if it can't then maybe removed in place of something more balanced.

[Bunnysmack]

Rogues desperately need e-dodge so please don't take it from them. Taking it away because of div-dip abuse seems like another case where div-dip abuse is the problem and the ones who don't abuse will be hurt most.

Like I was saying before, it was designed for rogues (and similar themed classes). It was originally designed for use by shadow dancers and rogues. Monks gaining it was a mistake. I'd go a step further and say that the bar for when rogue and SD can grant the ability should be substantially higher, to discourage monks and div-dips from getting it.

If your AC can break 70s semi-easily, and your saves are through the roof, you don't need epic dodge, and since you don't need it, when you get it, you become nigh-immortal.

[Red_Wharf]

Changing Epic Dodge from automatically dodging an attack to a bonus dodge AC has a few pros:
1) Divine Dex builds, specially rogues or anyone who uses the Lightly Armored ability, should already be hitting 20 Dodge AC, the dodge AC cap. It's a direct nerf to them.
2) Non-divine rogues, their AC can push past 65. A +3 or +4 dodge AC bonus from an updated Epic Dodge puts them at or close to 70 AC, a really high number. Chances are their opponent will miss anyway, but at least there's a chance to hit.
3) It's not a complete removal of the feat. Which is good, because a complete removal would turn the forums into this environment.

[Scylon]

E-dodge is extremely OP and needs a retune. Most characters that have it are able to surpass 70AC. As such they are already out of the reach of many builds to even land a hit. Correct me if I am wrong here, however it even counter a nat 20, which it shouldn't.

Amendment:

There are a few feats removed from the server like Dev crit, Epic warding etc. I'd like to see these available again however just as something else. clearly On crit Kill is just OP as hell. But I would like to see it re-designed for str characters to make use of it.

[ReverentBlade]

My e-dodger, one-handed with parry, gets 60 AC on a good day, and a little more with party buffs available. What are these solo 70+ AC builds you guys are going on about?

[Skibbles]

My e-dodger, one-handed with parry, gets 60 AC on a good day, and a little more with party buffs available. What are these solo 70+ AC builds you guys are going on about?

Is that with or without improved expertise added?

I may be wrong but 70 ac characters, or at least most of them, at that high only with imp exp active.

[Xerah]

My poorly build 24/6 rogue/fighter (it got caught up in a few changes over the years and is not close to optimized) gets edodge with 67 AC. I could get 3 more AC (and shield pot would make it +1) out of it was rebuild from the ground up. Haste is the only short-term buff I'm counting (and that lasts 3 turns). This does include IE.

There is nothing really too crazy about the build and could be done with any +DEX race with major gifts.

[ReverentBlade]

Oh. If you've got IE on you're not hitting squat.

[Scylon]

My poorly build 24/6 rogue/fighter (it got caught up in a few changes over the years and is not close to optimized) gets edodge with 67 AC. I could get 3 more AC (and shield pot would make it +1) out of it was rebuild from the ground up. Haste is the only short-term buff I'm counting (and that lasts 3 turns). This does include IE.

There is nothing really too crazy about the build and could be done with any +DEX race with major gifts.

I want to add to this point by stating, you also are not giving anything up really. This is typically in addition to what ever stuff you did to get here like high sneak, sneak attacks, HIPS, skills, level 9 spells etc etc.

Being able to to say "na thanks" to the 1st attack of each "round" that hits is extremely good. Honestly I think I'd prefer to see this on high straight builds as like "Epic Deflection". Its a great tank ability, but again, it needs to be tuned as I already see the divine dips as a strength build.

[Skibbles]

Oh. If you've got IE on you're not hitting squat.

Yeah but you are hitting the dreaded 70 ac that everyone is talking about.

It's kind of a weird dynamic. Two of the exact same build both activate imp exp because without it the fight would be over in seconds, but with it active the fight takes forever.

Then, because neither can hit each other, they take turns drinking true strikes and chasing each around like a Yakety Sax comedy routine.

[Scylon]

Actually, it is different if you have E-dodge. Because even if you roll a nat 20, you still miss.

[Blossom]

Well.. There are other factors. If you’re talking a strength based vs dex based trading 20s the strength based would do significantly more damage when their hits do land as the dex isn’t sneak attacking in that situation. The dex is probably running with just enough discipline to get by but not enough to withstand all KD/disarm attempts (how many dexers really take ESF:disc and gear enough to survive a 40 strength character with imp disarm or knockdown?) so STR would have an advantage on that front.

I don't know. I’m not running numbers of all possible scenarios and those are just examples off the top of my head that may or may not be valid. But I feel like focusing on epic dodge alone is myopic. Maybe it needs a tweak and I'd probably agree on monks it's overkill. I don't think rogues and assassins ought to lose it and would rather see counterplay options instead.

[Dreams]

Remove Epic Dodge, bug fixed.

[CNS]

Well.. There are other factors. If you’re talking a strength based vs dex based trading 20s the strength based would do significantly more damage when their hits do land as the dex isn’t sneak attacking in that situation. The dex is probably running with just enough discipline to get by but not enough to withstand all KD/disarm attempts (how many dexers really take ESF:disc and gear enough to survive a 40 strength character with imp disarm or knockdown?) so STR would have an advantage on that front.

Not picking on you here, just happened to see this and wanted to correct the general misunderstanding.

I'll run the numbers for you. I mean I already did earlier in this thread but I'll expand to cover out the damage aspect and show why its meaningless.

Let's create two hypothetical characters that are total extremes and give the strength character way more damage than most have and the e-dodger way less. The strength guy, well lets say every time he hits its 60 damage. Crits are irrelevant here as they can't be confirmed, so this is a straight 60 damage per hit. The e-dodger we will give 20 damage.

I'm not going to retype all the maths from my first post on the first page of this thread, but given the expected chance to hit of the strength character (we'll even give him permenant haste to make this easier) your mighty 60 damage swings will result in about 0.21 HP damage per round. 1 lantese ring (which heals 1HP per round) will outheal the 'higher damage' you do by a factor of 5.

The e-dodger character, if it were basically a combat dummy and just stood there taking hits and the strength character had the patience to swing at it, it would take (assuming a rather low e-dodge HP total of 400HP) 3 hours and 10 minutes for the e-dodger to die.

The E-dodger, doing its rather low 20 HP damage per hit is in IE, so lets say they can only hit on a 20 and also can't crit. They would be doing 4.6 damage per round, which yes is paltry and easily healable but out damages the strength character by a factor of 21. Giving the strength character a rather large 600HP, it would die (if it were a combat dummy) in about 13 minutes.

Now this is not reflective of an actual fight, neither side is sat there swinging uselessly like an idiot for hours at a time, although I will add, for many e-dodge builds they have very high sneak attacks which means the second you stop focusing on missing them their damage gets high, fast.

Its a broken ability.

[Irongron]

Over the years there has been an upward trend with AC. Now, I'm not a fan of considering absolutely everything from the 'level 30 PvP' position that is the default here on these forums. Not only is level 1-29 where the game play happens, but 99.9% of fights are PVE.

And PvE largely got broken by increasing AC. All those old mobs ended up just not being able to land a blow, while the the newer ones have their AB so inflated (some must use +15 to hit weapons) that building for AC becomes ever more important.

And still, PvE doesn't just become easy on Arelith with high AC, it becomes boring, fights can be so slow that the trade off becomes xp gain rate vs risk.

Back when I first played Epic Dodge was a problem, but only marginally. Before gifts, reaching that dex requirement just took some serious investment, and could only really be hit at level 30 following a serious trade off. Thus, simply upping the dex requirement would really help take the wind from its sails.

Overall though, high AC is a problem with or without this feat, and the more we have OP feats unlocked in epic levels the more we encourage the mad grind to reach them.

I don't have a solution, my last proposed one that once you pass AC 45 it enters the realm of diminishing returns, whereby each point of AC above certain thresholds counted for less actual AC. So a character with 70 would effectively have somewhere around 58.

Of course wild changes like that upset balance across the board, so I'm never surprised by skepticism, and so long as the benchmark to measure balance is best in slot, 1v1 level 30 PvP, we'll always be seeing this as a flat, zero sum game. I know balance discussions are important, but man do I find them as cold and joyless as the grave.

[Might-N-Magic]

E-dodge and HIPS used to be disabled.

I've been here since before the server split and edodge was never disabled. I still have my first rogue that has it.

[Kuma]

E-dodge and HIPS used to be disabled.

I've been here since before the server split and edodge was never disabled. I still have my first rogue that has it.

yeah edodge was never disabled it was just prohibitively difficult to reach

[Aren]

Just remove it from monks. They are the main issue.
They already get 70 AC, silly saves and mind immunity.
Take away Edodge from monks. Please. Force them to do ye olde rogue/SD multi class split, if they want Edodge.
Make them choose between e-dodge and damage/ab.

[Twily]

Poking in my head in reply to Irongron:
I'd noticed the trend of nerfing high AC that had been going on for a while, and I'd always been on the fence about it.

PvP Angle on High AC
I feel PvP goes too quickly most of the time.
Most fights last under a minute, without leaving any time to try to RP during the fight, and often require skill as a player on how to properly use 'pvp tactics'. Lowering AC will result in an even more rapid curb stomping in fights, especially against players who aren't great at twisting game mechanics to their advantage.

PvE Angle on High AC
If a player has to make sacrifices to achieve insane levels of tankiness then I think that's fine.
Personally as someone who has long played ridiculously tanky characters, I love being 'able' to do many dungeons solo(because there isn't always people around when I have the time to play), but I also love that I'm not punished for travelling with people since my solo clear spead is so abysmal.
I'm not barred from playing the game due to not being able to find a party, and I'm not shooting myself in the foot for finding one.
I think this is how it should be for every build in the game.

Focused on Epic Dodge:
Epic Dodge is undeniably insanely strong. I've always viewed it as a sort of counterpart to EDR, which obviously Epic Dodge is a lot better.
If a nerf is desired, the best suggestion I can think of would be to make it like defensive roll. If an attack would hit, you need to pass a reflex save vs the attackers totaled attack roll to dodge it.

I don't think it should be removed or completely overhauled though. It definitely shouldn't be buffed, whether it's for a bug fix or otherwise.

Dex based Vs. Str Based
I think insanely tanky characters are fine, as long as they have to sacrifice AB and Damage to get it*. This is personally how I've always viewed the Str vs. Dex stance. Str was for people who accept lower AC for more damage. Dex was for people who don't mind low damage but want to be really tanky.
This is less of a thing than it was in the past. Many dex based builds have been given all sorts of(sometimes substantial: monk) damage and AB buffs. So yes, they are now overpowered(especially in PvE) as they have AB, damage and AC.
Personally I'd like to see their AB and damage nerfed closer to how it was originally before their AC, with Strength based builds being made more viable at the same time.


* As a frame of reference, I can self buff to 74AC with Imp Expertice and have 38+ all saves v. spells, but I have 40~ AB(without expertice) and hit for 20~ damage a hit. I don't personally feel like this is that overpowered, especially in PvE where many mobs have damage immunity/reduction. There's several dungeons I only hit for 15~ish.

[BattleDrake]

Why not just disable expertise with E-Dodge and vise versa? If either of the two expertises are active, E-Dodge is disabled. If neither of the expertises are active, E-Dodge is enabled.

Is that difficult to setup? Would that not be a solution?

[Cybren]

In the abstract, edodge as a feat anyone can take if they meet the prereqs is a bit weird. It seems like the exact sort of thing like, say, third intention that would be very good as a high level class features that encourages you to take what may be more levels than you’d otherwise want in a class.

[Archnon]

***Spits some wisdom****

Dex based Vs. Str Based
I think insanely tanky characters are fine, as long as they have to sacrifice AB and Damage to get it*. This is personally how I've always viewed the Str vs. Dex stance. Str was for people who accept lower AC for more damage. Dex was for people who don't mind low damage but want to be really tanky.
This is less of a thing than it was in the past. Many dex based builds have been given all sorts of(sometimes substantial: monk) damage and AB buffs. So yes, they are now overpowered(especially in PvE) as they have AB, damage and AC.
Personally I'd like to see their AB and damage nerfed closer to how it was originally before their AC, with Strength based builds being made more viable at the same time.


* As a frame of reference, I can self buff to 74AC with Imp Expertice and have 38+ all saves v. spells, but I have 40~ AB(without expertice) and hit for 20~ damage a hit. I don't personally feel like this is that overpowered, especially in PvE where many mobs have damage immunity/reduction. There's several dungeons I only hit for 15~ish.

I think this whole post was dead on! Epic dodge takes a significant investment, 10 -13 levels of a 3/4 BAB class + high dex score. It is not a problem in and of itself because it is making a trade for damage and AB against dodge.

When things like this become a problem, including the whole creeping AC debate, is when you can stack benefits across archtypes. Essentially, when you can get lots of damage output in spite of being dex (parry, divine might, Shadowdancer sneak attacks in pve), can fish for 20's in spite of low AB (monk's 10 APR in improved expertise anyone, previously hips to flat foot), or when you can stack AC onto strength (divine shield), or when you can stack saves onto AC, AB, and Damage. We all want characters that can do it all. This has made this pretty easy to get recently, especially with the growth of the basin and the potential for 5%.

What I have really appreciated is the effort to crack down on this stacking, especially with new classes and AC. Spellsword, Ranger, Parry, Divine Shield AC doesn't stack with monk. However, stacking damage is still a bit of a problem and I feel like the direction people are heading is more AC for strength, though we did see a damage nerf to archers. Even suggestions to make epic dodge AC and make it easier to get sort of fall into this trap. I think there should be more room to leave epic dodge but further limit AC (as irongron suggested) and thinking critically about damage sources and fishing for crits. Frankly, improved expertise is an obnoxious feat in pvp and the fact that it is so highly suggested in pve is a testament to the creeping of mob weapon AB at the expense of their AC. Ultimately, I'll die on the hill that class benefits should scale with class investment and that much of the ability comes from stacking significant class benefits at an early level. Nerfing HIPS was a good move in this regard and I would love to see more of that down the line. In this sense, epic dodge does not fit that bill.

[Tarkus the dog]

E dodge should be a feat that's costly to get rather than a feat that some builds get by default at a very small price ( pure monk comes to mind ).

[-XXX-]

Just remove it from monks. They are the main issue.
They already get 70 AC, silly saves and mind immunity.
Take away Edodge from monks. Please. Force them to do ye olde rogue/SD multi class split, if they want Edodge.
Make them choose between e-dodge and damage/ab.

Yeah, yet another thing that spins out of control with monks.
I wonder if we might have finally reached the point to have the "remove monks" talk.