Warlock and the new dispel rules

[SkipiusEsq]

I want to start by saying I understand why the Warlock's dispel got nerfed - they have infi-cast and get a blast (albeit reduced damage) with the spell. However, the nerf seems to go a bit too far.

Prior to the recent change, a Warlock could get 1d20 + 24 (Greater dispelling + GSF: Abjuration) vs. 41 (for non-arcane defense builds). Meaning Warlocks were dispelling 20% of the time. While the announcement says that "Warlocks got a small but very needed nerf," the nerf is actually quite drastic.

Now, Warlocks can get a maximum of 1d20 + 22 vs. 42. That means only dispelling on a roll of a 20 or 5% of the time. Cutting the success rate by 1/4 seems much more than "small." IMHO, taking two feats for a 5% chance of a dispel does not have great value. Also, I am not positive if a nat-20 dispels in any event (like a critical hit) or if you need to still beat the defense. If a nat-20 always succeeds, then the feats have even less value.

I appreciate the above assume a 30 CL but since many people build for that, it is reasonable to use 30 CL as the testing point.

Two requests:
(1) Increase the Warlock dispel to 21 so this way there is at least a 10% chance of success (half of the prior method) or
(2) Allow relevels for Warlocks with GSF: Abjuration since the two feats for such a small percent chance is a bit much?

[Skibbles]

I have no opinion on the actual topic, but I was curious about the idea of a dispel on a 'natural 20' so I looked it up.

http://wiki.nwnarelith.com/Dispel_Tables

From what I can tell there's no such thing as a natural 20 in the dispel world, which aligns with what I usually experience in PvE content from monsters that spam dispels but never remove anything if you're high enough CL.

If it's too weak it will never ever work.

[Bunnysmack]

I appreciate the above assume a 30 CL but since many people build for that, it is reasonable to use 30 CL as the testing point.

When talking about mundane targets, that is a decent point, as all level 30 PCs that have used no spellbook class feature will be counted as CL 30, and Feylocks especially really do rely heavily on dispel to remove things like clarity and see invisibility, otherwise much of their most important magical combat features (Unlimited Invisibility refresh and Mind-based CC effects) are easily made pointless by mere potions (no need to even invest in UMD or Lore to counter most of their powers). Additionally, though I originally started this reply to point out that CL30 is not that common for casters, I realized that CL30 vs. Dispel has become an increasingly more prevalent benchmark what with maximizing returns on fiendlock, mono-druid, wild mage, protection healer, and now the most recent addition of abjuration-spec'd 27/3 wizards.

While I am leery of the warlock ability to spam G-Dispel forever and ever (especially because both major forms of warlock have extremely high defense potential in different ways), obtaining a 5% dispel efficacy, per dispel, after investing two whole feats toward the purpose, does seem a bit weak.

Now, there is the fact that a hasted warlock can spam those 5-15% effective dispels twice per round while simultaneously shooting lasers at the target, so that fact might be a mitigating consideration to "sympathy for the devil" on this matter.

[AstralUniverse]

The devs intentionally made it the lowest chance possible to dispel that isnt entirely flat 0% (so it's 5% to dispel against CL 30). Because warlocks are op and because this is an infi-spell. That simple. Holy Sword didnt have it any better and also needs to go through attack rolls to proc anything.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

5% is okish aa it 5 against "all their spells". But seems bad choice action economy wise unless it's a druid/cleric.

That being said, the main benefit of grester abj focus is shiekd spell protects against IGMS which is not something to overlook with time stop back on the table.

*edit*

And how are warlocks op in this dex monk dip meta? Even with touch attacks warlocks have to roll 20 against certsin builds to hit.

[SkipiusEsq]

That being said, the main benefit of grester abj focus is shiekd spell protects against IGMS which is not something to overlook with time stop back on the table.

That's a fair point, the feats do still have some usefulness. The main point of the post was simply to ask for the -relevel option on Warlocks with abjuration focus. I personally took the two feats for the jump in dispelling but would rather consider other options if my dispel is now seriously nerfed. If others are instead wanting it for the IGMS protection, then no need for a relevel.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

That being said, the main benefit of grester abj focus is shiekd spell protects against IGMS which is not something to overlook with time stop back on the table.

That's a fair point, the feats do still have some usefulness. The main point of the post was simply to ask for the -relevel option on Warlocks with abjuration focus. I personally took the two feats for the jump in dispelling but would rather consider other options if my dispel is now seriously nerfed. If others are instead wanting it for the IGMS protection, then no need for a relevel.

I was going to a 30 hex build and now im like "im capped already at 27!" Lol i been cross classing tumble

[AstralUniverse]

And how are warlocks op in this dex monk dip meta? Even with touch attacks warlocks have to roll 20 against certsin builds to hit.

Because of your use of the word 'meta' in this context, perhaps. Plenty of other things outside of dex monks exist around and warlocks are powerhouse against all of them. Dexers also have *relatively* lower dps and it actually takes them quite a while to cut through 700 hp + DR + DI. I personally think dexers dont have enough trade-offs in this server and they have too much damage sources but this is a different discussion unrelated to warlocks who are good against anything else. Also Balagrn is a thing against dexers now. And there's true strike and always was. There are ways to deal damage, and the opposition (the dexer) is cutting through you quite slowly and has about 60-70% your max hp.

Maybe I'm missing something, and last time I played a warlock was with darts +15 ab which applied to Eldrich blast and no useful Balagrn vs dexers so I could be missing something here within this shift in tactics.

[SkipiusEsq]

Maybe I'm missing something, and last time I played a warlock was with darts +15 ab which applied to Eldrich blast and no useful Balagrn vs dexers so I could be missing something here within this shift in tactics.

I'm not disputing that warlocks are powerful. My only purpose for the thread was to hope that warlocks could get a -relevel simply because spending two feats for something that now has a very low chance of success is a rather big tax to pay to the update gods.

[AstralUniverse]

Maybe I'm missing something, and last time I played a warlock was with darts +15 ab which applied to Eldrich blast and no useful Balagrn vs dexers so I could be missing something here within this shift in tactics.

I'm not disputing that warlocks are powerful. My only purpose for the thread was to hope that warlocks could get a -relevel simply because spending two feats for something that now has a very low chance of success is a rather big tax to pay to the update gods.

It's a tricky one. Usually the team's policy (since -relevels started) was that only in cases where a character lost functionality on a very fundamental level, relevels are given.

So like... Shadow mages lost hips and deserve a relevel right? Monks who no longer needed 21 wis for Ki feats and could now go pure for e-dodge also needed a relevel...

Warlock wasnt changed. Something too strong was toned down in a purely mathematical fashion that has no implications on your build's functionality... just makes it weaker in what it already does *exactly the same*. However, I agree that some warlock players would totally forgo abjuration feats because of this (which I'm not even sure is a good idea. You still have 20% dispel chance against casters with discipline dip and other 27 CL builds around) and feel like they've wasted 2 feats, but again, nothing was changed in how they work. Just something that was considered by the team overpowered been toned down in numbers.

Also... the more I think about it.. is 5% really this bad against 30 CL? You fight against people with a lot of wards on for example. Every two dispels you throw can manage to fish something important, like Bull's or barkskin or frickin haste, while also dealing damage, and suddenly your enemy needs to ward something important again mid combat (which utterly sucks), while also dealing with your summon. It really is still useful tbh.

[Blossom]

TBH I would hope they'd err on the side of relevels even with something minor like this. Even if it's just because warlocks might want to adjust a few other things at the same time to keep up. For example some may have taken leadership in the time when it boosted warlock summons and now regret it. As almost all warlocks follow the similar pure level 30 builds (maybe with a BG dip if feylock) I doubt you'd see a lot of situations where they're suddenly completely different characters.

I personally think the era of relevels being cautiously doled out has passed (I mean everyone with fighter and ranger levels just got one) and players are certainly happier when they can tweak to stay up with the update thread. But I understand it's not my call.

[Xerah]

Being too free with relevels means that those characters are likely to remain active for longer and longer. So it is usually a discussion about who gets them and who doesn't.

In the case of warlocks, the reason to take the feats was much much more so for the IGMS immunity than for the dispel benefits. Tinkering with minor numbers like this is just a thing that happens that I don't see a need for a full relevel for. Your class is already way overtuned.

[SkipiusEsq]

In the case of warlocks, the reason to take the feats was much much more so for the IGMS immunity than for the dispel benefits. Tinkering with minor numbers like this is just a thing that happens that I don't see a need for a full relevel for. Your class is already way overtuned.

While I disagree, at least in my case, that the purpose of the feat was IGMS immunity (seeing as I never use the shield spell), I will of course respect the decision of the team on this and just accept that I have a few feats that have other uses even if that is not why I took them.

[SkipiusEsq]

... players are certainly happier when they can tweak to stay up with the update thread. But I understand it's not my call.

This thought exactly. I appreciate that -losexp was abused and understand why it is gone. But when changes happen like this, -relevels help you "fix" your character and keep the game being more fun than if you didn't get the "fix."

[SkipiusEsq]

So I thought a little bit more about this and wanted to respond. I appreciate it is not going to change the team's mind, but some of the below thinking is, IMHO, flawed.

Being too free with relevels means that those characters are likely to remain active for longer and longer. So it is usually a discussion about who gets them and who doesn't.

I've have this character for one RL month. I expect there are many, much older characters who have arcane defense who are getting the relevels. Further, I understood that the purpose of the relevels was to help people playing a game for fun to fix impacts to their characters due to changes in game mechanics, especially changes like to dispel which have been around for years. This is not a situation of a brand new class getting tweeks. If the intent is to get very old characters to roll, there has to be a better way than to hope that through mechanic changes people get so frustrated with the impact on their characters they roll them.

In the case of warlocks, the reason to take the feats was much much more so for the IGMS immunity than for the dispel benefits.

Respectfully disagree on this point. The warlock build on the wiki has 660 hit points. Someone with that many hit points is not overly worried about getting pounded by a couple of maximized IGMS spells. With one G. Resto, that means 10+ maximized IGMS to kill me. In that same time I am pounding the True Flame (only class with that many maximized IGMS) with very little hit points and surviving. While the shield buff is a nice plus, the purpose for taking the feats is for increased dispelling, especially for a feylock who relies on getting rid of mind protection buffs through dispel.

Tinkering with minor numbers like this is just a thing that happens that I don't see a need for a full relevel for.

I would agree with you except that this is not a "minor number." It is a total of two feats (one being an epic feat if you follow the wiki build). Arcane defense is one feat that is normally taken pre-epic and is still technically not useless as it helps anyone who doesn't have a full 30 CL, and while they are leveling to hit 30. Further, the dispel change drops the warlocks' ability to dispel by 400%. Not a minor change.

I am not being belligerent nor do I think that I have all the answers. I just wanted to respond to the above comments because I think they only look at the matter from one side and do not consider the full scope of impacts.

[malcolm_mountainslayer]

And how are warlocks op in this dex monk dip meta? Even with touch attacks warlocks have to roll 20 against certsin builds to hit.

Because of your use of the word 'meta' in this context, perhaps. Plenty of other things outside of dex monks exist around and warlocks are powerhouse against all of them. Dexers also have *relatively* lower dps and it actually takes them quite a while to cut through 700 hp + DR + DI. I personally think dexers dont have enough trade-offs in this server and they have too much damage sources but this is a different discussion unrelated to warlocks who are good against anything else. Also Balagrn is a thing against dexers now. And there's true strike and always was. There are ways to deal damage, and the opposition (the dexer) is cutting through you quite slowly and has about 60-70% your max hp.

Maybe I'm missing something, and last time I played a warlock was with darts +15 ab which applied to Eldrich blast and no useful Balagrn vs dexers so I could be missing something here within this shift in tactics.

PGCC balgarn horn diff from server? The other week it was using high str or dex for its vs check.

Apparently the plus 15 darts were nkxed along time ago with the ab not applying. Also a dex 22 (10 plus items/buffs) warlock with 20 bab is is only 26 ab. Even with a plus 20 weapon/true strike you are looking at 46 ab. Monk and dex divine builds can easily exceed that for touch ac.