Nerfing of -scry

[Vain_Duplicity]

Hello there,

I have since learned that new updates have been implemented against scry, and I am not sure as to why, given I feel it is already massively nerfed for several reasons. One major reason is that there are several easy ways to ward against -scry through a: bard song, epic abjuration -ward and even a simple FOIG that can easily be accessed through a wand. All meetings of worth or conversations 'worth' scrying on are always warded and there isn't much of a return on the three feats as is.

But it does not seem very fair for those who specialize in divination (and do not abuse it for the means of PVP, or repetitively as well); but those who use it purely to add to their narrative to not only be restricted from 'scrying' for ten minutes, but to even be deprived of spell components (even upon failure in an attempt to scry) seems expensive.

If not reversed, perhaps make it harder to ward against scrying? But at present, there seems like a great imbalance against those with epic divination and I do not see why it should cost spell components/ten minute scry restriction if you fail the scry attempt due to the individual being warded.

Just some thoughts.

Thanks.

[TheManBehindTheMemes]

-Scrying was often used to find a specific somebody who's just out, and about doing stuff. Then alerting your entire group and venture out on a ganksquad.

More than not, people that uses -scry usually uses it for intent of finding their victim, and then pulling out 20-30 man ganksquad for one guy.

[Vain_Duplicity]

-Scrying was often used to find a specific somebody who's just out, and about doing stuff. Then alerting your entire group and venture out on a ganksquad.

More than not, people that uses -scry usually uses it for intent of finding their victim, and then pulling out 20-30 man ganksquad for one guy.

Hi.

Never done this. Maybe the answer is for the DMs to talk with people who use -scry in such a fashion?

[TheManBehindTheMemes]

Hi.

Never done this. Maybe the answer is for the DMs to talk with people who use -scry in such a fashion?

Granted that it's not something that a DM can resolve because almost majority of diviners usually are on request to find potential killing target. So it's because of it that -scrying got reduced to shorter CD, and became much easier to protect against to protect players from being hunted down by ganksquads.

That being said, not all diviner are PvPhound, but most of them usually are. And just getting them whacked for doing it won't really stop them.

I do hope divination get more cool features though.

[Xerah]

Coming into the discussion with leading works like "Arbitrary" aren't doing you any favours here.

Chain scrying was a poor mechanic. If you're not someone who was "abusing" this, then you shouldn't have an issue with the change. You can also scry for twice as long.

[Vain_Duplicity]

Hello,

The title was not designed to cause offence; it was to embody the nature of my feedback and it is not that deep. Apologies if it is felt I have poorly relayed my suggestion. My intention is to be constructive with this post. I think it is arbitrary in the sense of the mechanics, not the decisions 'behind' the change; concerns of which I fully resonate with.

However, I was primarily drawing upon the 'cost' of scrying even in failure, which I think is a reasonable issue to draw upon.
It seems very costly for the scrier to lose spell components and be restricted from scrying (when the individual is warded) from the spell. I was also mainly drawing upon how easy it is to ward against it and that it is very commonplace now to find people almost always warded from the spell.

Just highlighting what I perceive as an imbalance.

Regards

[Anomandaris]

I mean, I don't see anything wrong with using scry to track someone down and kill them. Is that a bad thing?

Seriously... If you do that to the same people/person regularly, you're griefing and that's a rule break. If you don't create RP as a part of the interaction and do it like a jerk, rule break.

The issue isn't the tool it's how it's being used. Granted you can also just... still use it that way. I really don't think it's productive to simply disparage people who PvP or use Scry to PvP. Sometimes people have it coming and need to be found out in the wilderness unexpected because their RP created that response, and otherwise they hide or slink about in settlements to avoid repercussions of their behaviors. There's nothing wrong with this (in theory).

As long as scry CD doesn't trigger on a failed attempt it's still worth while. If it does trigger CD on fail attempt, then it's been hamstrung. The resource costs hurt, and you always lost components on a failed attempt before, that's just part of it but it's managable.

[Shrouded Wanderer]

I mean, I don't see anything wrong with using scry to track someone down and kill them. Is that a bad thing?

Seriously... If you do that to the same people/person regularly, you're griefing and that's a rule break. If you don't create RP as a part of the interaction and do it like a jerk, rule break.

The issue isn't the tool it's how it's being used. Granted you can also just... still use it that way. I really don't think it's productive to simply disparage people who PvP or use Scry to PvP. Sometimes people have it coming and need to be found out in the wilderness unexpected because their RP created that response, and otherwise they hide or slink about in settlements to avoid repercussions of their behaviors. There's nothing wrong with this (in theory).

As long as scry CD doesn't trigger on a failed attempt it's still worth while. If it does trigger CD on fail attempt, then it's been hamstrung. The resource costs hurt, and you always lost components on a failed attempt before, that's just part of it but it's managable.

Sure. Nothing wrong with it.

Its when it becomes the number 1 and only tool used and used so frequently for ganksquads and not for it intended purpose that the mechanic ends up getting reworked.


Chainscrying was abusive in itself. Ganksquads go against the spirit of roleplaying and storytelling.


And i am unabashedly someone who believes these updates didnt go far enough.


Heres a quote from the great Mal reynolds

"If you wanna track someone, use your eyes"

[-XXX-]

Sure. Nothing wrong with it.

Its when it becomes the number 1 and only tool used and used so frequently for ganksquads and not for it intended purpose that the mechanic ends up getting reworked.

Any evidence that anyone can present to support this claim is anecdotal at best - no player can claim that a mechanic is no 1 reason for anything simply because they do not know. As a player they don't possess the sufficient information to reach that conclusion.
All that they can present is a biased uninformed opinion.
Thanks for sharing yours. I reject it.

I really wish that people would stop pushing disingenuous narratives based on their preference of game mechanics.
Why not compile an arbitrary wishlist of all the game mechanics that could be potentially used against our characters and we'd like to see disabled while we're at it? We could then compare the lists. Sounds like it might be a fun forum thread.




PS: Ganksquads might rise the odd eyebrow on occasion, but I have seen them primarily used to address individuals who think that they can get away with messing with entire factions by the virtue of staying -disguised and/or hidden 24/7.
That would suggest the issue at hand might be of a player conduct nature rather than a mechanical one, but at the same time it seems like one borderline detrimental pattern of behavior cancels out another in this instance.

[ReverentBlade]

Sounds like we need more and better features to go with Search. As the rule rather than the exception, scry and summon and literally the only ways to find bad guys or rescue allies. Tracks are locked behind a single class, and even then, they are a poor tool.

Its rather sad that the best build for as CITY guard is ranger that can scry. Otherwise you've got nothing, no matter how much of a well-connected skill monkey your build is.

The "abuse" or "poor mechanic" is because of a lack of literally any other options.

[Xarge VI]

I think that statement is profoundly incorrect ReverentBlade.

Scry is far from the only way to combat criminals, villains, etc. And reliance on scry to do that you'll be mediocre at best at finding people.
The best tool available still is rp. Investigate, interview, form profiles, predict and negotiate with the enemy.

Thinking that finding your ally with -scry or even better yet -yoink is the only way leads to lazy and repetitive approach to conflict. If an enemy captures one of yours I'd say in 95% of the cases you are going to get informed one way or another if you're just looking for them, instead of falling into despair as soon as scry doesn't work.

You have another investigative tool available too. -investigate which is useful for tracking people down. New toys to play an investigator with would be awesome, but stating that scry is the only way to play one just rings out wrong to me.

Scry is a very useful tool to compliment espionage, but on its own it is not very dependable.

[Anomandaris]

I mean, I don't see anything wrong with using scry to track someone down and kill them. Is that a bad thing?

Seriously... If you do that to the same people/person regularly, you're griefing and that's a rule break. If you don't create RP as a part of the interaction and do it like a jerk, rule break.

The issue isn't the tool it's how it's being used. Granted you can also just... still use it that way. I really don't think it's productive to simply disparage people who PvP or use Scry to PvP. Sometimes people have it coming and need to be found out in the wilderness unexpected because their RP created that response, and otherwise they hide or slink about in settlements to avoid repercussions of their behaviors. There's nothing wrong with this (in theory).

As long as scry CD doesn't trigger on a failed attempt it's still worth while. If it does trigger CD on fail attempt, then it's been hamstrung. The resource costs hurt, and you always lost components on a failed attempt before, that's just part of it but it's managable.

Sure. Nothing wrong with it.

Its when it becomes the number 1 and only tool used and used so frequently for ganksquads and not for it intended purpose that the mechanic ends up getting reworked.


Chainscrying was abusive in itself. Ganksquads go against the spirit of roleplaying and storytelling.


And i am unabashedly someone who believes these updates didnt go far enough.


Heres a quote from the great Mal reynolds

"If you wanna track someone, use your eyes"

I played a Wiz Diviner & of the 300-400 + times I've used scry, probably less than 10% had anything to do w/ PvP. The reason a lot of "chain" scrying was used was because of the short duration. In order to catch any useful info you'd have to keep scrying over and over and basically drink yourself to death to get anything interesting out of it.

And besides, what XXX is spot on. If you've earned the ire of a "gank squad" that means 4-6+ people have dedicated hours of their free time to hunt you down. You have to match up times with the target and the "gank squad" so realistically it would be be days or weeks until the right moment is presented (right time, place, people and so on). It takes a lot of time and patience to track someone down and hunt them when they don't want to be found.

Seriously, 9/10 times if you're on the end of this, you had it coming. Not to mention this is a stupid easy thing to counter with 4+ FOIG means that are very accessible and cheap. If people are griefing, that's a problem. This should all be done in the framework of creating a story and rp, not just to show up and murder someone then trade doing that for a month until a DM steps in. All that being said, there's nothing wrong with getting murdered, kidnapped or IC messed with for antagonistic RP. It's part of how things go and I've seen plenty of great encounters precipitated by a Scry.

This change doesn't prevent what you're describing. Most people don't move through an area fast enough to make the 1 time scry an ineffective way to find them. It's easy enough just teleport/lens to the nearest location to the target and haste towards them or surround them from multiple directions. Also it's usually very easy to predict where people are going given the dungeons and location etc. All this change does is frankly make it easier to gather useful intel from dialogue & RP without spamming scry over and over.

If you want to tick off murderous villains or conversely be a notorious criminal poking a city state, you better operate like one or someone is gonna find you and arrest, kill or do something nasty to you, because that's the bed you made. This is part of what makes the whole thing exciting and fun. There are no random PC's getting hunted by "gank squads" for no reason. It's gonna be someone who's deeply involved in some sort of conflict RP and PvP to begin with, thus has opened the door for that kind of counter play. If you're complaining about it, you're either the 1/10 who are getting griefed and there's a serious rule break, or you're just not being honest with yourself that you set yourself up for it by how you played your character.

Lastly, love the firefly reference but it's just not real. Modern day we're using data and all sorts of tech to track people up until you're in visual range. Visual range is risky and where things get hectic. It's also a very prevalent part of FR lore and a very established way in any setting (remote viewing/satellites/social media/camera etc) to find a target so you can send your people to do ... something.

[ReverentBlade]

Enlighten me as to the options available to you when your buddy is held in an underdark player house with a max DC lock.

[Curve]

There is something to be said for not immediately running to rescue your ally. Let the capture take place. Don’t leap to nullify it with -yoink. Give the captor the spoils of their victory and see where it goes.

I hate to sound repetitive here (as the above poster mentioned this) but the means ay your disposal are role play. Hire some shady character with ties to Andunor/Cordor, don a disguise and go do a 007 mission, ask around, send a message.

I do not mean to pick on anyone when I say this, and it is not specific to the above poster, but:

Try things other than hitting the win button.

[ReverentBlade]

That sentiment applies just as readily in reverse, though. I'm gonna do what my guy would do IC. Other team's gonna do the same. Its important that there are hard mechanics to support both sides, and the mechanics for tracking down thieves and slavers, frankly, suck. Scry and yoink are bandaids, and easily countered ones at that.

[Curve]

This may be heavily off topic, but it seems like you see conflict as a game of realistic reactions. I do not. I am not and never have been part of any team on Arelith. I play characters who have varying levels of loyalty based off ic and ooc considerations. That does not mean I only shoot for soft conflict, believe me when I say that I am all for hard conflict. All I am saying is that like many things, a little bit of drawing out the scenes can make them so much better and also lead to less intense feelings about winning/loosing.

[-XXX-]

Captive RP contains a prominent element of OOC cooperation that's required from the captive character's player.
It's important to realize here that these players WANT such experience to be a part of their character's story.
Forcing the issue and attempting a rescue without their input can not only be very unhelpful, but under such circumstances could be considered a selfish attempt to steal the spotlight by inserting another character as the hero of someone else's story.


That being said, the ability of -scry to interfere with captive RP is quite limited. It's possible to use it to obtain information, that's it. How the information is used from that point is not the fault of the mechanic - it's a matter of player conduct.

[digression] It's -yoink that can make things extremely awkward for captive RP... perhaps we could make use of a console command that would block conjuration (or toggle auto-rejection of summons). I've also noticed an increasing tendency to randomly ping opposing characters with -yoink hoping for a missclick. A console command toggle would help with that as well.[/digression]

[Hazard]

I'm happy with the change. A 2 minute scry is a lot better than 1 minute. I wish it was even longer, but I'm just glad the alcohol-scry-thing is gone and done with.

I do think the bard song that protects from scry is a bit much, depending on if it protects just the bard or everyone in their party/area.
If it's just the bard, I guess it's fine? But there was already a method for them to do that. If it's not just the bard, then it's an easy alternative to having a 3feat invested abjurer, and seems OP. Would also like to see there be no cost/lockout on failed attempts.

It is annoying how easily people can be permanently protected from scry, or at least have 100% protection during any sort of meetings, but on the other hand it would be just as annoying for the other side if they couldn't have easy access to scry protection. Everything would get scried every time.

I think the frustration coming from people with ESF: Div is that -scry is essentially the whole point of the 3 feat investment. Many classes like cleric don't even get DC benefits from that school. It would be great to see ESF: Div give some other kind of toy as well that ISN'T scrying. I can't think of what. Maybe a reverse scry? a -vision that lets you (if the player accepts via menu like -yoink) give someone ELSE a scry into what your character is seeing. That would be coooooooool. So the player having a vision would be all misty-scry-bubbled, while the person who sent it would just keep going on about their day.

[Aradin]

I think the frustration coming from people with ESF: Div is that -scry is essentially the whole point of the 3 feat investment. Many classes like cleric don't even get DC benefits from that school. It would be great to see ESF: Div give some other kind of toy as well that ISN'T scrying. I can't think of what. Maybe a reverse scry? a -vision that lets you (if the player accepts via menu like -yoink) give someone ELSE a scry into what your character is seeing. That would be coooooooool. So the player having a vision would be all misty-scry-bubbled, while the person who sent it would just keep going on about their day.

Letting another (willing) character anywhere else on the server see through your eyes for 1-2 minutes, ie. the reverse scry, sounds like a neat RP trick for greater spell focus in divination!

[-XXX-]

Yeah, a very cool idea

[Zavandar]

so are we like using -yoink on people and seeing if we get feedback that tells us they're online and using that IC?

idk how I feel about that

[Kuma]

so are we like using -yoink on people and seeing if we get feedback that tells us they're online and using that IC?

idk how I feel about that

i know how i feel about it

[Skibbles]

Maybe it's time to make scry an actual spell and give epic divination something else entirely, or divination feats continue to add duration options or something.

Also - cat is out of the bag again on scry counters. It's hard to tell if this FOIG or not lol.

[Security_Blanket]

I keep saying it, Divination needs spells. Leave Scry as is and actually add some spells to the spell school. All focus on Divination is centered around Scry, as the player of a Favored Soul Diviner, this drives me nuts. I personally grabbed it for RP reasons, not for summoning a gank squad, though it has been handy in avoiding them.

For the three feats invested the only thing that is ever looked at, ever discussed, is SCRY. Including Scry, I have access to three spells, Detect Poison, True Seeing, and Scry. Power Word Kill and Stun are only available to Shamans, Wizards, and Sorcerers. Divination is the only spell school that has abilities locked behind some FOIG wall, and it has next to no spells available to it. So that puts the investment of three feats entirely on Scry, and it simply shouldn't be.

[Bunnysmack]

I think more investigative options would be really nice. I love the fact we have -investigate to occasionally play detective, but it can often be of rather niche utility. I don't think it should give all the answers, just more ways to use it to get different vague clues about recent events. I don't think Reverent Blade is trying to say that you NEED scry alone to do stuff, but there are rather limited means a lot of the time to gain info on certain people if they aren't living in the same settlement as you, often due to mechanical limitations of playtimes and being able to rest anywhere (rather than regularly needing to go home to sleep, like real life stakeouts try to look for).

Should it be possible to ALWAYS find someone? No. But a bit more back and forth would be nice, especially if the clues were of a deductive nature, rather than just a big flashing sign saying "So and So is right here!"

By that same token, I also think that there should be counters to any new ways introduced to employ the -investigate command, just to make it more of a "Spy vs. Spy" situation, and add a bit of strategy to the opposition game.

Unrelated note...

I keep saying it, Divination needs spells. Leave Scry as is and actually add some spells to the spell school. All focus on Divination is centered around Scry, as the player of a Favored Soul Diviner, this drives me nuts. I personally grabbed it for RP reasons, not for summoning a gank squad, though it has been handy in avoiding them.

While I think the school likely does need some custom spell love, you are admitting you picked scry for a class with almost no divination spells. The spell list for favored soul is public knowledge, I don't see why and how you are being cheated here.