Invisible Blade

[Morgy]

This class needs a bit of work to make it more viable/worth it. This isn't a full post about all the changes that might help, as it's only a class I've recently started playing and am really not quite experienced enough on it yet.

One thing which may either be intended, or not, is that Crippling Throw doesn't work without having a blade in your hand. In the combat log it details you as having thrown a hidden blade, which to me suggests you needn't have anything equipped.

I've been RPing a thief and in an escape scenario I was in, I used crippling throw with the animation showing on screen, but the action log stating I was ineligible to do it (as no weapons were equipped). It would seem funner/more realistic to be able to whip out a dagger from nowhere.

[Aniel]

Invisible Blade is at the top of the list for an update.

[Morgy]

Great news - thanks!

Inclusion in the blinding speed CD reduction would be appreciated for them and perhaps inclusion towards the rogue +AB feats.

[AstralUniverse]

Inclusion in the blinding speed CD reduction would be appreciated for them

God plz no. We talked about this last thread, and in a past Ranger thread and in swashbuckler threads... No perma-haste for full bab classes who enable max apr. This would be terrible design and let out some serious abominations into the streets. But of course, if Invisible blade becomes a 3/4 bab class (who knows) then there's no problem.

[Morgy]

Inclusion in the blinding speed CD reduction would be appreciated for them

God plz no. We talked about this last thread, and in a past Ranger thread and in swashbuckler threads... No perma-haste for full bab classes who enable max apr. This would be terrible design and let out some serious abominations into the streets. But of course, if Invisible blade becomes a 3/4 bab class (who knows) then there's no problem.

It's only a 5 class max, but even counting IB levels as half, as per swash, would be alright.

[AstralUniverse]

Inclusion in the blinding speed CD reduction would be appreciated for them

God plz no. We talked about this last thread, and in a past Ranger thread and in swashbuckler threads... No perma-haste for full bab classes who enable max apr. This would be terrible design and let out some serious abominations into the streets. But of course, if Invisible blade becomes a 3/4 bab class (who knows) then there's no problem.

It's only a 5 class max, but even counting IB levels as half, as per swash, would be alright.

Counting IB as anything less than rogue progression (swash is 1/2 the rogue progression) would be alright as it would rule out perma-haste by ruling out 5 minutes CDR for the character. In a 5-lvl class I dont know how that would look like... maybe if all 5 IB lvls would count as 3 rogue lvls and then 3 rogue + 5 IB = 1 min CDR (doesnt qualify for perma-haste).. or something like that.

[Blossom]

Just tossing out notes as I like the idea of the class but was pretty underwhelmed and used my recent rebuild to lose the IB levels for now...

Obviously the biggest issue is sneak attack being pretty redundant with bleeds. It never felt like there was any point to turn bleeds on. When I first saw the class description I was hoping these bleeds would be a way for rogue-types to deal extra damage head on and when sneak attack isn't viable, like in 1 on 1 combat. I still think that may be the way to go, they'd be tremendously useful even as-is if you didn't have to be in a sneak attack situation to use them.

Wnat if it was 6 instead of 5 levels? Then it would let certain (not great, but fun) builds with two other 3/4 classes get full BAB, like if you wanted to go rogue/IB/shadowdancer or rogue/IB/assassin.

Could IB levels at least count towards the rogue armor and weapon bonuses (so a 20 rogue/5 IB/5 fighter could get +5 blades?)

Is dodge really needed as a prerequisite? Could Swashbuckler dodge at least count, since the classes could work well together? Speaking of which, why don't Swashbucklers have sleight of hand as a class skill?

What if IBs got dual wielding for free at level 5? I tried to make something like a 22 swash/5 IB/ 3 rogue build work but there's just not enough feats to dual wield especially on a non human.

Is there anything they could do with throwing knives now that they're in the game? Maybe they could deliver ranged bleeds?

Could Hidden Blade's cooldown be reduced? What if its cooldown was much shorter but the target is immune to further hidden blades for a turn or until the bleed stacks are cleared or something?

Obviously I'm not suggesting "do all this", those were just my impressions from playing of things I might like to see. Looking forward to seeing what comes.

[Definately Not A Mimic]

Currently playing a IB/Rogue/Swash. I make the opposite of OP builds and so far this one is doing great, easy to lvl, slow to do damage once the initial sneak attack is done but pretty sure that is cause how I designed it.

The Crippling Throw I've used but rarely because it felt I had to get too close to the enemy to use it and give up my first sneak attack. The Bleeding Wound I have never used as it feels like my sneak damage does a much better job. Uncanny Feint I actually really like, if seems to work more often than not surprisingly, and I enjoy the feature. Unfettered Defense is a nice touch to not having your off hand holding a shield and the cap on it makes it not a large investment but also not too overly strong.

If crip throw could be used like darts to try and lure enemies without being on top of them maybe it would be more worth it? Building isn't something I'm an expert in but just thought I'd drop my opinions in and what I've seen so far with using this class. For reference the character is now lvl 24 and still doing fine with pve content.

Edit for minor clarification

[AstralUniverse]

The problem with adding IB into the pool of classes who have progression with some or all of the rogue stuff is that they lose identity and become "stat damp" in which you take the class for the full bab levels which stack with whatever your Rogue wants to do anyway and I just dont like this line of thought. I hope we find *other* ways to make synergy between IB and classes like fighter, rogue, weapon master, etc, but not just slapping rogue progression on it.

The Bleeding Wound I have never used as it feels like my sneak damage does a much better job.

And this is the main reason builders dont recommend this class to anyone in it's current state. But that's not to say it's impossible to have fun on it. Other than an 'exotic' looking rogue class with full bab to add for flavor it does so little and this is why it needs a rework badly.

What if it was 6 instead of 5 levels? Then it would let certain (not great, but fun) builds with two other 3/4 classes get full BAB, like if you wanted to go rogue/IB/shadowdancer or rogue/IB/assassin.

Maybe I misunderstand what you're suggesting but I think you can already do that?
If you take 4 lvls of IB pre-epic along with 3/4 bab classes in multiples of 4 (say 12 rogue, 4 assassin, 4 IB) you get 16 bab and then max apr. You then even have 5th lvl to play around for late-game skill dumps. I think the class is okay in that regard.

[Alyxnia]

Invisible Blade is at the top of the list for an update.

cries in warlock