Epic Damage Reduction

[Edens_Fall]

I have recently created a Rage Focused, Pure Attack Barbarian with the idea of Maxing AB at the cost of AC. To counter the low AC I spent feats to take Epic Damage Reduction III to increase survivability.

I have never used EDR before this character and after taking it I now feel the maximum damage reduction of 9/- to not be worth the three-feat cost of investment. Yes, it is nice to have and takes the sting out of hits, but with the current landscape of high damaged builds (Spell Sword, Hexblade, AA, WM, etc) it hardly makes much of a difference. Not enough to warrant the investment of three feats when it appears aiming for the higher AC would pay off more then relying on Epic Damage Reduction to survive long enough to put up a fight.

Would it be possible to increase to DR value of these three feats, or at least the final feat of EDR III to make the investment worthwhile and increase the survivability of the character. That or perhaps a class only (ie Barbarian whom seems to rely more on DR then most classes) EDR feat with a higher value?

I’m not so skilled in builds as to offer what the numbers might need to be, but something higher then a max of EDR 9/- seems needed.


Thank you!

[Bunnysmack]

I would HIGHLY advise against this. In the past, the feat payoff was not the issue, it was the high base con requirement, which has now been made much more manageable. Keep in mind, barbarian builds will already grant between 2 and 5 DR from the class itself (depending on how many barb levels you take), all of which stacks with the the 9 DR of Epic DR III. On top of that, the 10% physical immunity of the class while in rage, and whatever items the barb is wearing for damage immunity, all conspire to make a very VERY resistant high damage combatant with an extreme amount of HP to get through AFTER dealing with all the DR/DI.

If you compare it only to the highest damage-per-hit builds, the DR is not the greatest protection, no. But it is by no means useless, and it's not a defense stat that can, or should, make someone entirely immune to damage, especially for a PC that is running ~600-900+ HP while raging. Enemies built around more rapid attacks with individually smaller damage packets will certainly be confounded by the DR, and I'm pretty sure I've seen the DR make barbs absolutely immune to black/fiery tentacles spells (because they are technically "attacks," saw a ton of 0s pop up when a barb walked through them).

[garrbear758]

Pretty much what Bunnysmack said. You're comparing it to the builds that are a counter to it. It is very effective against low damage high APR builds, which are fairly popular in the current meta.

[Edens_Fall]

Thanks for the feed back, though it doesn't feel all that useful at times Perhaps if DR counted towards magic attacks as well, but that is wishful thinking on my part.

[Bunnysmack]

That would effectively make spells like darkbolt, flame arrow, and IGMS useless, or almost useless, against EDR builds. Given how much punishment those builds can already take with their nigh-unparalleled health pool, I think that's a pretty bad call.

Keep in mind, the DR alone isn't your only defense, it's the DR combined with the obscene level of HP. Trust me, most casters that are using nothing but evocation/damage spells against a well played barbarian of equal level is going to have a REALLY tough time getting through that much HP before the barb cleaves them into tiny pieces. Unless used by a warlock specifically, damage based magics are meant for quick bursts, not attrition, as a result the HP pool itself is already a fantastic defense (no, I don't count TF for this, because I've yet to see a truly tanky TF, and most of the time a barb will cut them down before they can blast enough holes in the berserk warrior).

[Edens_Fall]

A well given explanation. Thank you for the feedback. I'll give it another go and see how it feels with the increased knowledge.

[Bunnysmack]

I can certainly understand the point of view of feeling like it is not enough. When you don't have AC and pure attrition can eventually wear you down when only shedding a portion of the damage, it might seem inferior, but you have to look at the bigger picture. It's not that you can take an endless amount of punishment, but you can take a LOT of punishment, while doing some of the most potent melee DPS in the game.

[Flower Power]

EDR's primarily used by Dwarven Defenders, Palemasters and Warlocks.

It really shines on the first two because of their crit/sneak immunity, which removes the two main sources of burst damage for most PCs - 9 dmg + DI is a really big chunk out of every attack if you can't get crits or sneaks. Warlocks are just warlocks. Lots of HP and their damage output is almost completely divorced from their attributes (unlike... basically every other class.)

Any change to EDR would horribly imbalance those three classes.

For barbarians, it's just a cookie. Their real defenses are their HP pool and their significant damage potential (especially when coupled up with Weaponmaster, which is what most barbarians do.)

[Diegovog]

EDR is weak but it's supposed to be. It's one of those things that can be incredibly broken even if slightly over the curve.
There are some specific builds that can really abuse it, mainly palemaster, warlock, monolith druid and risen lord shape.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing a slight buff to it, though.

[AstralUniverse]

I think EDR is okay in it's current form.

Hypothetically, if barbarians lacked DR late game, I would consider buffing barbarians, not the EDR because it would also buff the already very powerful druids and warlocks. And while I havent played a barbarian, I did play a warlock with EDR and it felt like it's pulling it's weight in regards to feat investment. I was getting, I think, around 30% physical DI with items included and at that point, with 700 hp pool, EDR already has insane value for the investment.

[Might-N-Magic]

The feats suck, but increasing their physical resistance is too overpowering. What they need to do is work against all damage types.
That would make them worthwhile.

[-XXX-]

It's essentially a permanent stoneskin.
Is stoneskin useless? No. But it's one of those features that are heavily utilized for PvE while offering little to no effect in PvP.

That being said, tampering with DR can have catastrophic consequences for how encounters play out. Just look at EDK that went from being the king of all summons to a middling gate like feat primarily due to its DR downgrade.

[helitron]

EDR is great on high CON / high level barbarians because of all what has been already stated in this thread. I would advise against using it on a Barb/WM build or with low level Barb investment (e.g. 16 levels).

[Quidix]

There could be alternative ways to improving EDR though, given that the amount blocked is a fine balance. Alongside each EDR feat, grant one of (not suggesting all at the same time!):

- 1 AC (possibly just for EDR I and EDR II)
- 15 HP
- 2 Regen

[helitron]

There could be alternative ways to improving EDR though, given that the amount blocked is a fine balance. Alongside each EDR feat, grant one of (not suggesting all at the same time!):

- 1 AC (possibly just for EDR I and EDR II)
- 15 HP
- 2 Regen

I think the problem here is that most builds that go the EDR route have already some sort of HP buffs (Barb, DwD), regen/round (Barb with Mighty rage, DwD), vamp regen (Hex) or AC (PM, high level barb). Adding more on top would be counterbalancing.

[Edens_Fall]

The idea of having the EDR block "all" damage and not just physical makes my mouth water, but as stated would likely be used on other builds making them even more resistant, and not just the low ac barbs

[-XXX-]

The module appears to rely on magical damage in other areas than combat, so I wouldn't be holding my breath on attaining permanent IGMS immunity this way any time soon.

[Morgy]

High HP chars can already tank magic dmg from the likes of Isaacs quite easily, so effectively blocking so much damage from individual missiles would mean you wouldn't even need to bother reacting to isaacs really.