Feedback regarding Ghostwise Halfling being made minor award

[Cerce]

Already posted this on the development channel on the official discord, but placing it here just in case.

I question the movement of Ghostwise to the 'minor award' category - not because they aren't supposed to be rare, but because effectively speaking, there is no mechanical difference between a Ghostwise Halfling and a Lightfoot Halfling whatsoever. There is no racial craft, there is no language, there is no different stat, no different saves or feats, nothing whatsoever. There is no mechanical incentive to choose Ghostwise Hafling, and as a result, will almost certainly never be chosen.

* Wild Dwarf, Wild Elf, and Forest Gnome all get access to Armor of the Wilds
* Forest Gnome gets access to Sylvan, Animal Language, can use -track, and does not leave tracks
* Wild Elf is the only elven subrace with -2 int, has a unique racial craft for Fang of the Wild, and gives trackless step, toughness, and -track
* Wild Dwarf gives +3 against poison, +4 against disease, Use Poison feat, Fire Immunity 15%, and -track / doesn't leave tracks, and are an entirely different size category
* Derro grants widely different stats and abilities compared to base race, and are an entirely different size category
* Troglodyte grants widely different stats compared to base race, +2 AC and Stench Aura which scales with leveling
* Nobility award grants unique interactions with NPC's, as well as the Silver Palm feat and access to otherwise restricted in-game factions

In comparison:

* Ghostwise Halfling is exactly the same as Lightfoot Halfling

I would highly suggest either making Ghostwise Halfling be distinctive from Lightfoot Halfling with in-game representation, or do not require an award to play them. Suggestions for differentiating Ghostwise form Lightfoot (All of these are extremely wishful thinking on my part, most likely, but just ideas I'm throwing around):

* Change base stats to -2 CHA +2 DEX, reflecting their status as a far more nomadic, barbaric race (with Barbarian as a favored class already)
* Add a Ghostwise-specific Sign Language equivalent, with respect to their in-canon vows of silence since the Hin Ghostwars (and subsequent edition's Silent Speech feat)
* Add a bonus against shapeshifters, as the Ghostwise fight against Malarites/Werewolves to atone for their actions in the Hin Ghostwars
* Add the ability to wield two-handed weapons, as Perinsa Falmarya did in 3.5e with a two-bladed sword
* Add some form of unique craftable for Ghostwise Halfling
* Add literally anything that differentiates Ghostwise Halfling from Lightfoot Halfling

[Flower Power]

I'm just hoping that shifting them (and, I hear, Wild Elves - but I don't use the Discord) to being award only will stop people from playing the various races that are clearly inspired by real world indigenous peoples as infantilized savages who behave like literal animals because that's an incredibly troubling thing to see given their obvious inspiration and it's very, very, very common.

Fingers crossed.

[Zavandar]

there already weren't any wild elves

There were moon elves with toughness and 1 ac

I've actually found that characters of "tribal" races acting in a "tribal" fashion are in the minority

[Blossom]

They'd shine if there was a somewhat more remote untamed wilderness kind of surface area with maybe a barely civilized trading post with enough amenities to let PCs function. An unsettled island perhaps. But even the more nature-y areas of Arelith now have so much civilized activity it's hard to play a "wild" race as being apart from that. So most who want to be true to their background will lean on being "fish out of water", primitive races trying to adapt to life in Cordor or Brog or Bendir instead, which can be done well but can also get same-y.

I'm not complaining about anyone's RP... Mostly I want to see an untamed nature area where the wild races can thrive without having to base out of a city.

[Curve]

If a wilderness area has quarters, a jewelry, scroll, and bounty buyers is it a wilderness area or a wilderness themed city? I don't think the DEVs can solve this one for us. I also think it's a good idea for "wild" peoples to be forced to come to civilization to do certain things. Interaction should be a requirement.

[Blossom]

I don't think it's difficult to find real-world equivalents of trading posts in otherwise unsettled lands or ways primitive cultures would meet to trade. "Wild" races would still have to do all the other Arelith things and would still need to visit cities eventually for shops or politics or what not and would certainly meet others in dungeons.

*Shrug* I don't expect this to happen but I'd play it if it did. It would be another angle to approach the game from which is always welcome and there are enough races and classes to support it (even human barbarians might start there for example). I'd just like to be able to play some wilder concepts without having to figure out why they'd base in a city or repeating the same "noble savage adapts to the big city" tropes. But having put that out there I'll let it go as it's a tangent anyway.

[Dreams]

The change reflects the RP of the races, not the mechanical side. Like Zav said, it's already a rare thing to come across 'wild races' being played as wild races. The amount of pale-skinned wild elves that were raised by humans or raised in moon elf communities is staggering.

[Zanithar]

They'd shine if there was a somewhat more remote untamed wilderness kind of surface area with maybe a barely civilized trading post with enough amenities to let PCs function. An unsettled island perhaps. But even the more nature-y areas of Arelith now have so much civilized activity it's hard to play a "wild" race as being apart from that. So most who want to be true to their background will lean on being "fish out of water", primitive races trying to adapt to life in Cordor or Brog or Bendir instead, which can be done well but can also get same-y.

I'm not complaining about anyone's RP... Mostly I want to see an untamed nature area where the wild races can thrive without having to base out of a city.

You mean like ... Skal?

[Blossom]

You mean like ... Skal?

Skal if it wasn't frozen over, not human-centric and Nordic inspired, somewhere wild elves, dwarves, ghostwise and forest gnomes might be found. So no, not really Skal at all. More like a deep Chult jungle maybe or one of dozens of other options in Forgotten Realms.

The change reflects the RP of the races, not the mechanical side. Like Zav said, it's already a rare thing to come across 'wild races' being played as wild races. The amount of pale-skinned wild elves that were raised by humans or raised in moon elf communities is staggering.

That's kind of what I'm saying... It may have a lot to do with not having a venue to do that. Dark Heart may be the best spot I can think of but it's tough to base a character there. So players figure out how to justify why this wild race is so uncharacteristically okay with going to these population centers. It can be done but you do see a lot of repeats in how. (To be fair you see a lot of repeats in a lot of character archetype backstories and that's fine, it just stands out with the wild races because they don't really fit in even in their kin's home bases).

[Dreams]

The venue we play on is Arelith. Whatever wild characters have come to this island/nearby islands. It is up to players to find a place for themselves, or wander!

[Ninjimmy]

You mean like ... Skal?

Skal if it wasn't frozen over, not human-centric and Nordic inspired, somewhere wild elves, dwarves, ghostwise and forest gnomes might be found. So no, not really Skal at all. More like a deep Chult jungle maybe or one of dozens of other options in Forgotten Realms.

So.. Crow's Nest?

Though back to the OP, I do agree that Ghostwise should probably reap some mechanical for being boosted to minor. Literally any other option for the minor would yield a greater mechanical reward.

[DangerDolphin]

Though back to the OP, I do agree that Ghostwise should probably reap some mechanical for being boosted to minor. Literally any other option for the minor would yield a greater mechanical reward.

Mechanically different sure, but we don't want awards to be mechanically overpowered (Even though some are)

[Ninjimmy]

Mechanically different sure, but we don't want awards to be mechanically overpowered (Even though some are)

Well, give it some hook.

[Eira]

As someone who adores Ghostwise halflings (and wild subraces)...

I really don't want them to be any more mechanically special, so that way people will play them for their lore, not whatever benefits they get.

[Hazard]

When did this happen?

[strong yeet]

I've always felt Ghostwise in particular shouldn't be playable on Arelith, due to their lack of racial telepathy. I don't think there's a clean way to implement this (somewhat definitive) trait of the race into the server without an immense amount of work -- certainly more work than "vaguely wild halfling race" really deserves, to me.

[Svrtr]

Given that ghostwise halfling has barbarian as a favored class, I stand by thinking that exchanging their STR malus for a CHA malus would do well. It would allow for an alternative for STR halflings which could fill a similar build niche as wild dwarves and allow for some more alternative to STR halflings.

So +2 STR and -2 CHA is my vote.

[Morgy]

+2 con would be better, I think.

[Skarain]

The "racial telepathy" could be implemented as a Secret Language, similiar to Druidic. Only the race can learn it. If the text shows as '''' ''''' '''''''''' ''''' , it is as close as it gets.

That, along with Ability Score Adjustments and barbarian as favored class would probably do it.

Potentially Animal Language and/or No tracks when in light/medium if feeling generous.

[Quidix]

If the purpose of the change was to make the race more rare, I think making it a small race without a STR malus would have the opposite effect - it is all of a sudden powerbuilder's dream.

[Svrtr]

If the purpose of the change was to make the race more rare, I think making it a small race without a STR malus would have the opposite effect - it is all of a sudden powerbuilder's dream.

To be fair, the wild dwarf is a small race without a strength malus who gets +2 CON currently and also gets +2 gifts.

This would be much the same but +2 DEX instead of +2 CON

[Cerce]

As someone who adores Ghostwise halflings (and wild subraces)...

I really don't want them to be any more mechanically special, so that way people will play them for their lore, not whatever benefits they get.

Much as I completely agree that races shouldn't be played for their mechanical aspect, but instead should be played for their focus on roleplay and their relationship with the world and grander story around them... this change is simply going to result in the vast majority of players writing off the race entirely. There is no incentive to play a Ghostwise as-is other than for complete and total fluff - and there's not even any fun fluff. There's no unique racial craft, no language bonus, no change of stats, no change of feats, no change of even the most mundane and banal thing to differentiate it from a Lightfoot.

For someone wanting a Halfling-but-more-wild-and-savage-focused roleplay, they can simply choose to be a Lightfoot and fluff away the reasonings for why they behave like a Ghostwise (like, say for example, hailing from the Kingdom of Delmyr). Hell, you can drop a normal reward of the same caliber and either get -1 ECL for the same roleplay, or drop a noble award on a Lightfoot. And you're just, hands down, better than a Ghostwise.

Every single - and I do mean every single - other minor gift race, including the recently made minor gift Wild Elf, contains a unique mechanic that is separate from the base race, even if it's just a stat tweak and Armor of the Wilds. Forest Gnome even get Sylvan and Animal Language. Nobody's going to drop a minor on a Ghostwise when you have other character concepts that can be mechanically represented in addition to their own uniqueness from a roleplay perspective.

[Cerce]

If the purpose of the change was to make the race more rare, I think making it a small race without a STR malus would have the opposite effect - it is all of a sudden powerbuilder's dream.

To be fair, the wild dwarf is a small race without a strength malus who gets +2 CON currently and also gets +2 gifts.

This would be much the same but +2 DEX instead of +2 CON

Which was why I was thinking having the mentioned change in the original post would be a nice tweak and make the minor choice worth it. Makes barbarian builds far more viable for a race of, essentially, barbarians. As of now you're rather feat starved trying to make a barbarian halfling with any sort of off-meta fluff, though I'm speaking from personal bias in that regard (Kit being a Barb LM with exotic focus is very fun but God help me I'm so feat starved)