Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

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Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by triaddraykin » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:53 am

With Scry now having a cooldown, the impact of a warded target is much higher than it used to be. This also occurs if the target isn't warded against divination, but is instead just transitioning between two areas and is in a loading screen.

I can understand the one side of it that if your scrying spell fails, then you've wasted the spell slot, and that's just how it goes. It's disproportionately frustrating and just not fun to suddenly be useless, in a scrying sense, for ten minutes, especially when you get the message that it was because they were transitioning between areas, and you know ten seconds one way or the other would have resulted in a success. Same thing happens with Project Illusion, but at least that you can rest off.
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Dreams » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:55 am

If you cast any other spell, it is used regardless of whether it works on the target.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Hazard » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:59 am

If you cast any other esf cookie spell/ability, it does not begin its cooldown if it fails.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by AstralUniverse » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:17 am

I guess I do agree with the OP that it sucks if scry fails because the target is transitioning between areas, but I wouldnt like to see scry attempts not triggering cooldown on failures. If the script could tell whether the target is warded by proper anti-scry means or not, and then not trigger cooldown just on cases of area transition then it would be acceptable, but I very much think that failed attempts against properly warded target should trigger the cooldown as it works currently.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Nitro » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:20 am

I think it's very necessary to make you pick your scrying targets carefully. Otherwise you can just start bouncing off all known associates of your initial target until you find one that hasn't warded against scrying.

The loading screen thing is an annoying bug though, and hopefully there is some workaround to make that not happen.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Hazard » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:12 am

The scry failing when vs wards wouldn't be so bad if the attempts that did work, worked well more often.
With all the bugs, and the short duration+typing speed+loading times, on top of the CD lockout, it can get pretty frustrating.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by neverwinternightly » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:59 am

I recall seeing talk in a different thread about this, and I personally agree with the sentiment from it that there probably shouldn't be the cooldown and the spell component cost on failure. The various protections and occasional bugs with it are whatever, and I'm more in the camp that it should go on cooldown on failure to stop people from just scrying every person that is potentially involved in a desired conversation to see if one slipped through the cracks. I see that as a strategy to the system. Figure out who the guy is that always forgets to ward against it and exploit that. If there is no cooldown on failure, you don't have to think that way. You just spam until you succeed.

That being said, having both the component and cooldown cost on fail stings especially badly. I could see it either way (and I know the other thread discussed both options). Either spamming until a success is allowed but each costs spell components, or the cooldown hits on failure with no spell components are taken. I'm much more in the camp of the latter if there is to be a change.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Anomandaris » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:35 am

The cooldown should not tigger on failed attempt but components should be lost. With the present cooldown duration it makes scrying an absolute pain. It's so easy to counter scry in multiple ways that this is too heavy a nerf. The CD itself is fine, the CD on fail is terrible.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Aelryn Bloodmoon » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:41 am

I played an epic mage for years of one sort or another. I always thought that the attempt to bring scrying to Arelith was a good-faith one and that the idea was neat, but the implementation has always had such large problems that even though I've never played a mage outside of NWN that didn't have the ability to scry, I've never even been remotely interested in playing one here, myself.

A bullet-point breakdown of why.

1: It's not a secret that I'm a purist- if you're going to make an addition to Arelith to reflect something in 3.x table-top, I want it to be as close as possible to the original in implementation and intention - and if the original implementation and intention isn't wanted, then why waste the effort coding a sub-par variant at all?

2: Scrying is a low-middle level accomplishment for casters of every type in Forgotten Realms, a tool used to both secure information as well as simply find a friend and make sure they're okay. In Arelith, you must be an epic mage to even contemplate the RP behind this, and it takes spell components (which is another can of worms I won't open here, other than to say that the vast majority of spell components should be covered by a 3 GP pouch that should be accessible and fully stocked at level 1- and also able to be stolen by an observant rogue at will once a caster reaches into it for that first spell.)

3: The duration is absolute trash. Yes, I know it just got a duration buff. Yes, I know the buff was made in good faith to make it better, but it's still trash. Scrying should last 1 minute/caster level. Even if I agreed in a home-ruled table-top game that that was 'too long' (I don't, and the longer you scry on someone the more chances they have to detect the sensor, which I consider 'balanced' in RP) and that it needed to be toned down, we're playing NWN, where some people literally take longer than the duration of the entire spell to type out a single post that represents less than six seconds of in-character action. Congratulations, your epic level achievement is completely worthless IC based on the OOC limitation of your fellow player's typing speed. No thanks.

4: The 'features' (bugs).

With these points made- when scry fails on a target, it should check to see if the target was warded ten or twenty seconds later, and refund the components AND the cooldown if they weren't, rather than penalizing an epic level commitment for OOC mechanical reasons. The duration will still be trash, but at least the people willing to deal with that won't feel like they got kicked in the junk every time it happens.

Otherwise, I don't see why this option wouldn't be suspended entirely from being able to be used, like every other "trap" component the community tries to isolate from selection.
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Hazard » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:58 am

Aelryn Bloodmoon wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:41 am
I played an epic mage for years of one sort or another. I always thought that the attempt to bring scrying to Arelith was a good-faith one and that the idea was neat, but the implementation has always had such large problems that even though I've never played a mage outside of NWN that didn't have the ability to scry, I've never even been remotely interested in playing one here, myself.

A bullet-point breakdown of why.

1: It's not a secret that I'm a purist- if you're going to make an addition to Arelith to reflect something in 3.x table-top, I want it to be as close as possible to the original in implementation and intention - and if the original implementation and intention isn't wanted, then why waste the effort coding a sub-par variant at all?

2: Scrying is a low-middle level accomplishment for casters of every type in Forgotten Realms, a tool used to both secure information as well as simply find a friend and make sure they're okay. In Arelith, you must be an epic mage to even contemplate the RP behind this, and it takes spell components (which is another can of worms I won't open here, other than to say that the vast majority of spell components should be covered by a 3 GP pouch that should be accessible and fully stocked at level 1- and also able to be stolen by an observant rogue at will once a caster reaches into it for that first spell.)

3: The duration is absolute trash. Yes, I know it just got a duration buff. Yes, I know the buff was made in good faith to make it better, but it's still trash. Scrying should last 1 minute/caster level. Even if I agreed in a home-ruled table-top game that that was 'too long' (I don't, and the longer you scry on someone the more chances they have to detect the sensor, which I consider 'balanced' in RP) and that it needed to be toned down, we're playing NWN, where some people literally take longer than the duration of the entire spell to type out a single post that represents less than six seconds of in-character action. Congratulations, your epic level achievement is completely worthless IC based on the OOC limitation of your fellow player's typing speed. No thanks.

4: The 'features' (bugs).

With these points made- when scry fails on a target, it should check to see if the target was warded ten or twenty seconds later, and refund the components AND the cooldown if they weren't, rather than penalizing an epic level commitment for OOC mechanical reasons. The duration will still be trash, but at least the people willing to deal with that won't feel like they got kicked in the junk every time it happens.

Otherwise, I don't see why this option wouldn't be suspended entirely from being able to be used, like every other "trap" component the community tries to isolate from selection.
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Hazard » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:09 pm

Imagine if scry was once a game day in CD, but was turns/level and could be canceled whenever you wish.
It would change the use of it entirely. Something valuable for information, and totally not worth using at all to just find a PK target unless it was important.

Or, maybe, I haven't given this more than a minute thought and it's a horrible idea.

Could be either.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Nitro » Wed Apr 14, 2021 12:40 pm

The P&P solution would actually be very elegant. A normal spell slot so you can even have scrolls of it, but it has a will save component and you could add spells like nondetection as an additional counter to its increased availability. Heck if you really wanted to go overboard you could have a system where using items once held by a character as a focus increases the save DC, like in P&P.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Party in the forest at midnight » Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:19 pm

Scrying is a horrible, low-effort spy mechanic that absolutely dunks on mundanes. Why are wizards the best cloak and dagger class. I have absolutely no idea where "it's bad for information gathering" comes from, you're just doing it wrong and not learning your targets. Even now I hear reports of scry-gathered intelligence. Prior to the nerf, the people who were good at it brought in a *lot* of information.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Bunnysmack » Wed Apr 14, 2021 3:27 pm

We are now on about the third or fourth iteration of this same exact topic.

I think it's perhaps fair that a blocked scry shouldn't consume components, but the cooldown is explicitly in place to stop people from spamming scry on a target until some hole in their target's scry-countermeasure durations appears (which people WERE doing, prior to the nerf). There is a purpose for the cooldown.

Ten minutes may indeed be a bit too punishing of a nerf (five minutes would likely hit a better balance point for interests), but I do believe some cooldown is necessary to stop the unfortunate minority of exploitive diviners from gaming the system.
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by magistrasa » Wed Apr 14, 2021 5:13 pm

It's really strange to me where we draw the line as to what's "gaming the system" and what's "just the way mechanics work bro."

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Anomandaris » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:02 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:19 pm
Scrying is a horrible, low-effort spy mechanic that absolutely dunks on mundanes. Why are wizards the best cloak and dagger class. I have absolutely no idea where "it's bad for information gathering" comes from, you're just doing it wrong and not learning your targets. Even now I hear reports of scry-gathered intelligence. Prior to the nerf, the people who were good at it brought in a *lot* of information.
This is pretty hyperbolic. High hide/ms "can" be a more reliable given they can steal intel reports. Also mundanes can very easily prevent scrying. I don't see how just being able to scry allows you to dunk on someone when there are no less than 4+ FOIG, very accessible means to prevent scry.

Right now the amount of effort due to the fact that -scry fail starts CD, and playerlist doesn't work across servers, means you're leyline hopping like a madman to even start with. It's a bit silly (just like slamming alchohol in the past was silly haha). There's other issues with server trans etc.

The issue isn't black and white "is scrying bad for info gathering or not." It's, is the ability balanced given the investment to attain it, resources & time to use it, and ROI based on the available counter play/countermeasures. I'd say.... it's not quite, but close. With a few small tweaks to make it more impactful it'd be nicely balanced.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by The GrumpyCat » Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:21 pm

Speaking strictly personaly it does feel a bit harsh that not only is your scry blocked, not only are the components wasted, but you can't do it for another ten min. I entirely understand the reasons and logic, but it does seem harsh. It's not a hill I'd lay my flag on - to be clear. It does make logical sense. But it seems a bit of salt in the wound.
Why are wizards the best cloak and dagger class.
Because quarters have such high locks that - if you hold meetings in them - you're basicaly 100% safe from anything but scrying.

Honestly (and this is very much a pipe dream I know) I think one thing that would be great is if scrying didn't actually reveal the area the person was in (As in - the load screen name didn't show) and maybe not the identies of those with them. If you can tell where they are from memory, or those they're talking to via sight - great. But that would at least partly prevent the use of scry to easily send kill squads after people.

Alas I'm not sure if obfiscating the area the person is in is possible.
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by xanrael » Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:35 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:21 pm

Because quarters have such high locks that - if you hold meetings in them - you're basicaly 100% safe from anything but scrying.
While it won't happen, I do wish that quarters that had their own zone also have a locked door by their chest (some do already) and then varying lock DCs. The front door is breachable with some investment but the "safe" is still hilariously high. Likewise you could huddle in your safe room if it came down to it.

Then zoning into a home/mansion isn't effectively entering your own instance of Arelith that only Scrying or someone zoning directly behind you can reasonably breach. Might have to be different rules for destroying/stealing placeables in homes etc, another can of worms opened up.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Bunnysmack » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:45 pm

xanrael wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 8:35 pm
The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:21 pm

Because quarters have such high locks that - if you hold meetings in them - you're basicaly 100% safe from anything but scrying.
While it won't happen, I do wish that quarters that had their own zone also have a locked door by their chest (some do already) and then varying lock DCs. The front door is breachable with some investment but the "safe" is still hilariously high. Likewise you could huddle in your safe room if it came down to it.

Then zoning into a home/mansion isn't effectively entering your own instance of Arelith that only Scrying or someone zoning directly behind you can reasonably breach. Might have to be different rules for destroying/stealing placeables in homes etc, another can of worms opened up.
I agree that the fixture details are a huge can of worms on this, and it might also make it TOO easy to pvp dunk on someone, BUT, I overall also wish there was some sort of mechanic like this. It would encourage people to hold clandestine meetings at actual secretive remote locations instead of everyone having their own personal impenetrable saferoom. A change like this ALSO make it so springing a prisoner from opposition clutches would no longer be virtually impossible if the instance they are held in is teleport/conjuration warded.
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by -XXX- » Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:49 pm

Party in the forest at midnight wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 1:19 pm
Scrying is a horrible, low-effort spy mechanic that absolutely dunks on mundanes. Why are wizards the best cloak and dagger class. I have absolutely no idea where "it's bad for information gathering" comes from, you're just doing it wrong and not learning your targets. Even now I hear reports of scry-gathered intelligence. Prior to the nerf, the people who were good at it brought in a *lot* of information.
Yes, because the "let's build a story around those few out of context details that we observed to shove a narrative down everyone's throats" kind of RP has never been done before :roll:

There's no secret art to scrying. Even with chainscrying possible, between loading screens and resting a lot of important information got lost - even for multiple diviners working in tandem. People who claim otherwise are lying through their teeth - plain and simple.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by triaddraykin » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:07 pm

The GrumpyCat wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 7:21 pm
Speaking strictly personaly it does feel a bit harsh that not only is your scry blocked, not only are the components wasted, but you can't do it for another ten min. I entirely understand the reasons and logic, but it does seem harsh. It's not a hill I'd lay my flag on - to be clear. It does make logical sense. But it seems a bit of salt in the wound.
Why are wizards the best cloak and dagger class.
Because quarters have such high locks that - if you hold meetings in them - you're basicaly 100% safe from anything but scrying.

Honestly (and this is very much a pipe dream I know) I think one thing that would be great is if scrying didn't actually reveal the area the person was in (As in - the load screen name didn't show) and maybe not the identies of those with them. If you can tell where they are from memory, or those they're talking to via sight - great. But that would at least partly prevent the use of scry to easily send kill squads after people.

Alas I'm not sure if obfiscating the area the person is in is possible.
It is a bit of salt in the wound. I have it from a Dev that it's not even supposed to happen this way. I admit the thread was the result of me being stuck for about a half-hour trying to succeed on getting -anything-, and finally deciding to throw my hat in the ring again, as my last attempts to see this situation, which has been verified to be unintentional, resolved at last. That situation being, that a failed scry, whether for warding or transition, isn't supposed to cost an attempt.
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Xerah » Wed Apr 14, 2021 11:19 pm

Not exactly, I'm pretty okay with how it works now. I originally didn't plan for it to use components, but you do actually cast the spell and have changed my mind.

It's a great ability with a good duration (in spite of what people say). Obviously, people are going to disagree with how it works but I think it is a good place now (Though I still believe the bard scry blocking mechanic with it's 100 round duration and refreshing uses is an issue)
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Anomandaris » Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:49 am

I guess the point of the thread is though, that a lot of people who are using it are saying it's not in a good place....

I've used in it in the past, but at present don't. I don't have a horse in the race beyond that it's useful as counter play to secretive activities which are far easier to hide than to discover. This balance is important to conflict rp IMO.

Given how hard it is to actually make it work given all the countermeasures, I won't be investing in it until a failed attempt no longer triggers a full CD or the CD is reduced. Maybe that's the desire? To dissuade lots of people taking it too much and making it more niche...

There's a good number of people who feel the same way and are dissatisfied with the ROI/efficiacy of the tool. There's also people who just downright don't like the feature, period. No one can really say it's easy to get a successful scry given the countermeasures and circumstantial requirements. If that's "by design" fine, I disagree but if scrying is supposed to be less useful, so be it. If the opinion is that, oh no, it is very useful as it is, then the feedback that's being shared now as it's out in the wild is that it's not.

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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by Xerah » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:48 am

Of course people are giving feedback that it's not as useful as it was; there is now a cooldown when before you could just do it unlimited before. It's objectively less time that you are able to do it. So, that's not a surprise. The cooldown isn't going anywhere though.

It's bonkers to me that scrying for 2 minutes out of every 10 minutes is said to be useless. I just completely, wholeheartedly, and fundamentally disagree. I think scry warding is on a lot of people's minds now, as this seems to be a weekly topic to discuss.

It really doesn't matter what a "PnP mage" can do or how low of level scry is in PnP. In PnP you scry vs an NPC while a DM holds your hand. This is not the case in a persistent world.

The one thing that I did want to add was a 5% chance to break through scry blocking wards but that got shot down.
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Re: Scrying: Warded Target shouldn't start cooldown

Post by ElvenEdibles » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:57 am

I don't have much to add here, other than I think the duration and cooldown are plenty but if it fails it shouldn't cost spell components, even if it does make sense from a continuity standpoint I can see it being a little frustrating.

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