Another update, another character sacrificed

[Cagus]

Hi,
I want to address the issue, which is long term problem, and which makes playing on arelith stressful and painful experience.

REASON:
Recently there was a change, which has broken my build to the point only solution is sacrifice it.
Unfortunately, there is a history of many similar builds I had, which get broken instantly, like:
Recent one: tenser wizard relying on combo of hellball and attacks
Shaman22/barb3/Caval5, when the level of cavaliers we changed to 10, which makes it broken, for you wouldn't even touch 9 circle of spells.
Smallsized dual wielding dex katana master, which one day forgot how to use the weapon in other fashion than with two hands.

These are just my builds in two last years, and I firmly believe I am not the only one. With 2 of these, I wasn't even finished leveling when got broken.
And also, these changes cannot be corrected by level 2 relevel, even if given (not in 2 of these examples relevel was offered).

PROBLEM:
Now, I am not arguing the changes, but I am arguing HOW these change were implemented. By this I mean instantly, without warning. Came home after long day, you log in, then you realize your character is no longer viable. Wasted months on something you just lost without your fault.
This is demotivating to build and try stuff outside of old established builds.
Because of this everlasting and ever-present Damocles's sword hanging.

Therefore please, I urge you, change the system, how are these devastating changes (and even nerfs) implemented, this makes playing on Arelith irritating and excruciating experience.

SOLUTION:
So you won't tell that I am just whining about something that cannot be changed, cannot be different, I have a proposition:
Make changes, which nerfs characters (with possibility of braking them), scheduled in long term intervals (like 6 or even 3 months). And inform about these changes 2-4 weeks before.
This would bring few things:
We could at least know we can play and enjoy this character for some time.
We could finish and wrap up (or even start) the story of these characters.
A lot of players would start new characters together at same time.
And we would have time to prepare new characters beforehand (that's why informing about those changes is essencial).

In conclusion:
There is an old (game developing) rule, which everyone knows:
Anything you take from people is felt as twice as anything given to them, if the value is the same.
Yes, I know the nerfs are necessary, but please, please at least make that process more bearable (in any way, it doesn't have to be MY solution, you can come up with something better, if you want).

[Irongron]

You know, I really do sympathize with this. I always promised myself time to play Arelith after finishing Guldorand, and spent a long time considering my character, including the backstory and description. The updates to Cavalier made the class combination I built and planned for impossible, and I've been left having to either abandon or entirely reimagine the character, even their description no longer makes sense. Really, after years of waiting to play again that experience was the last thing I wanted. While players that routinely level and cycle through characters such changes may not seem a big deal, but for more casual players who often stick with one character for several months or years, these changes are an absolute nightmare to navigate.

I really hope we can stop endlessly rebalancing classes, and with the upcoming skill update I think we can.

Because we have a volunteer staff though, who rely both on inspiration and free time, we can't realistically schedule updates as you suggest. There is certainly more pain to come, but I will follow your suggestion as far as I can, hopefully ensuring this happens far less often.

[Nitro]

I've been burned enough that I leave new classes alone for at least 6 months before even considering making a character as it because it's a given that they're going to be changed in a way that's probably going to break my build.

[DangerDolphin]

I suggested we have warnings on certain classes a few weeks before they change (if possible) but it came up that the last time a dev did this he got messaged daily asking when the changes would happen.

I would be up for warning about my own changes upcoming, though I don't often do giant class changes.

[Amnesy]

@DangerDolphin,

Perhaps a section on the wiki with classes/mechanics that are subject to planned change/being worked on by the DEV team (without pointing to the Dev involved, details, or ETA)?

[Red Ropes]

I love active development and living systems that respond to weird / broken / or not-as-intended features.
That's all I will say besides some sympathy for changes. But I also think a lot of stuff gets found out because most stuff can't reasonably tested in ways that the live server will always be superior to.

I have respect for the code monkies who keep invested in their projects and those that give attention to stuff that was abandoned or lost.

Beyond that I never make my characters in ways that can't be jiggered around either because I am bored with a path I took or a potential reform on the server or potentially most sac-bashing - an update from Beamdog itself that'll make me get stuck in the ground and turn into a shiny cube.

[Mattamue]

Barring the overall topic, in this case, Cav 5 today does not loose significant power/flavor over cav 5 pre-change. All 10 levels aren't needed. That's like saying you need 30 barbarian to be a barbarian.

The dev team does a very good job of keeping changes inline where large corrections aren't needed.

[garrbear758]

Well, I'm going to just get the bad news out of the way first. So, along with the skill rework, there will be a lot of other balance changes and a total rework of invisible blade. Due to the extent of this update, every character is going to be forced to relevel from level 1. This may break some builds, but it will also open up possibilities for new ones. This is our biggest meta/mechanics altering update since the UMD/Lore scroll usage change (Loremageddon) and we are trying to keep it all in one update rather than spread everything out like we have been doing in the recent past. There will be some small updates following it due to this update just getting too massive, but none of those will be drastically meta altering or require relevels.

Following this update, we will do our best to keep drastic changes and forced relevels to a minimum, with the exception of four classes, which are the following:
-Shadowdancer (getting a rework eventually) - < 6 months(ish)
-Shifter (Hopefully getting a rework if someone on the team feels masochistic enough. I know I don't.) - likely > 6 months out
-Spellsword (moving from path to base class eventually - ideally we can transfer existing characters which is why this would apply, but I'm not fully sure if that's feasible yet, as we haven't even begun to look into porting the class.) - likely > 6 months out
-Warlock (same as spellsword) - likely > 6 months out

This update has been a bit draining on me, and I want to take some time off to actually play for awhile before I get back into doing any of the above four classes, although if any of the other contributors volunteer for one, I will gladly take them up on that, and that timeline might get pushed earlier.

This doesn't mean that nothing else will be touched, and I can't promise anything so take all of this with a grain of salt, but, hopefully, following "Skillmageddon," balance will be in a good enough place where it just becomes a matter of fixing exploits and fine-tuning numbers, rather than big drastic changes and major reworks.

[garrbear758]

@DangerDolphin,

Perhaps a section on the wiki with classes/mechanics that are subject to planned change/being worked on by the DEV team (without pointing to the Dev involved, details, or ETA)?

While I like this idea, it's very hard for us to do stuff like this without creating expectation and sometimes salty feelings. When I was reworking hexblade, I got caught up in real life and the update came about 6 months after I planned for it to. I made the mistake of talking about it as something coming soon, and in that 6 months I got PMs or @s almost daily asking where the update was. Even without mentioning the dev name or details, changed plans might disappoint some people who are invested in that class and looking forward to (or dreading) changes. With that said, I posted above the few classes we are looking at a major overhaul for (although none should be expected anytime soon).

Additionally, plans change, and new builds or strategies are discovered that break things which were previously considered okay, which means that some things which used to be fine are not, and some things considered weak have unrealized potential. We really can't make hard written promises on anything or we'd be doing everyone who plays here a disservice by not keeping up with the times. I made that exact mistake with unduly nerfing Timestop, and I'd rather not commit to making a similar mistake again.

[Cagus]

I really hope we can stop endlessly rebalancing classes, and with the upcoming skill update I think we can.

Because we have a volunteer staff though, who rely both on inspiration and free time, we can't realistically schedule updates as you suggest. There is certainly more pain to come, but I will follow your suggestion as far as I can, hopefully ensuring this happens far less often.

I am assuming re-balancing and changes will not cease, and that's okay. What I propose is not about stopping to change the game. It is not even about planning and scheduling work. It is just about how you release the changes.
Because I see I am not understood (not just by you, but even the following), I will try to describe the example:
If you have release dates 1.2.,1.6.,1.10.
15. 3. - Some contributor will make new tables, stools or whatever placables as update. You release immediately, because it is not breaking anything.
10.4. - Some contributor nerfs wizards, because they have 4 free feats, bambillion skill points and 4 paths. Well, you don't release it immediately, breaking the characters, but you wait until 'release date' 1.6.
20.4. - Some dresses added. Release
25.5. - Release of new class, why not.
5.5. - Nerf No. 2. We don'T release it yet, but we wait three weeks until 1.6.
14.5. - Latest date we release information about the prepared changes (nerf 1 and nerf 2) and put those on the test server.
14.5.-30.5. - time to gather data from PGCC.


There is no different planning (and no dead lines, for you only postpone).
Everyone know when, no more asking about it.
It just touches small portion of all changes, but...
If I make character in february, I know I can play it at least 4 months, I am not scared it will get broken from day to day.
If I know my character will get broken, I have 14 days to prepare another character, and at the moment of release of balancing changes, I can made new character with others.
This is the point. I at least know how long my char cannot be broken. 4 months was just example, I would like to see 6 preferably.

[Archnon]

I love the updates and since Monkmagedon, I think the dev team has done an amazing job of play testing, being thorough, and thinking through the implications of changes completely. It is true, that things get out of wack. New items come in, or people get clever with a combination, or what not. The team has to be responsive to keep up the diversity of classes and what not, especially as the community grows. And man are you all creative with your implementation. It makes the game a ton of fun.

I think I only have two suggestions.
1.) I have said this on other threads and it has been rejected but I will say it again ... consider raising the cap for refunding awards. Like 15 does not seem unreasonable, when there is a major change to the class. 7 or 8 when there isn't. Losing a character that is late game, eh, i mean, move on. You can rebuild up to 30, change a lot of stuff around, and you are still sitting on tons of gear. Not to mention, you can roll for a pretty decent shot at a new award But losing a Major awards at low levels due to loss of viability due to a class change is a lot heavier. When you are thinking of that level 10 major award and the fact that you need to grind your way up after some type of nerf, that can be discouraging.

2.)

You know, I really do sympathize with this. I always promised myself time to play Arelith after finishing Guldorand, and spent a long time considering my character, including the backstory and description. The updates to Cavalier made the class combination I built and planned for impossible, and I've been left having to either abandon or entirely reimagine the character, even their description no longer makes sense. Really, after years of waiting to play again that experience was the last thing I wanted. While players that routinely level and cycle through characters such changes may not seem a big deal, but for more casual players who often stick with one character for several months or years, these changes are an absolute nightmare to navigate.

This just begs for some type of "stop nerfing yourself Irongron" meme and I am disappointed that no one has take advantage of that opportunity.

[Cagus]

Barring the overall topic, in this case, Cav 5 today does not loose significant power/flavor over cav 5 pre-change. All 10 levels aren't needed. That's like saying you need 30 barbarian to be a barbarian.

The dev team does a very good job of keeping changes inline where large corrections aren't needed.

1. Balancing is not the topic here.
2. If what you say is true, there was no reason for the change at all, right?
3. No, it is like saying 'why do you want 18 levels of wizard, if you can go with 14'. Maybe you want the 9. circle spells.
4. No

[Waldo52]

-Shifter (Hopefully getting a rework if someone on the team feels masochistic enough. I know I don't.) - likely > 6 months out

Much needed, you guys are so heroic.

I've always wondered why you needed to start as a druid, becoming a champion of the values of nature before you could become an iron golem or a corpse with a scythe. The class is a complete mess.

[Cuchilla]

My pros and cons:

Cons: I stopped playing my bards, monks, and kensai. I somehow managed to mess them up at the relevelling. I found the bards too complicated to play, I realize that others might luv the updates with various songs etc. etc.

Pros: I liked the rogue updates, especially the rogue speed when in stealth.

All in all, not one bad word about all this. I take life as it comes, and in the end, it is "just a game", pixels on a screen. Life goes on. And I still have a lot of fun playing.

[Dr. B]

Because we have a volunteer staff though, who rely both on inspiration and free time, we can't realistically schedule updates as you suggest. There is certainly more pain to come, but I will follow your suggestion as far as I can, hopefully ensuring this happens far less often.

You don't need to schedule them or set deadlines. I don't think that's what's at issue here. You just need to allow some time to pass between announcing and implementing a change, rather than doing both at once. This doesn't commit anyone to a deadline.

[Exordius]

so now that i finally got back to lv 30 again im going to be forced to do it all over again... wonderful. Only took me 9 months...

[Spriggan Bride]

Honestly, I returned to a game I played in high school because I like the RP aspect and I liked the familiarity. I wanted the "game" part to stay out of my way. I can only put so much time and energy into this and do all the things an adult is supposed to do as well. If I wanted something that's hypercompetitive and constantly being balance tweaked there are endless modern and much better games for that.

I don't expect changes to stop but they are disheartening and every broken character erodes my interest a little bit more. The ripple effect is what bothers me more than anything and how it effects RP. When a class or race is nerfed suddenly many of those characters disappear. When something novel and powerful is added existing characters disappear and a new wave of the flavor of the month appears. Turnover is good, of course, but not when stories are being dropped and factions cleared out because everyone is chasing mechanics. I've never understood what the end-game in all of this is, because existing characters are treated like something expendable so some future characters can be playing a better game, but will that future point where this is a satisfyingly balanced game even arrive?

[DangerDolphin]

so now that i finally got back to lv 30 again im going to be forced to do it all over again... wonderful. Only took me 9 months...

It's pretty much a universal buff and a free relevel to fix your mistakes. It will take about 10 minutes in game to do and you'll be stronger after.

[Exordius]

Ah good, that makes it much easier lol.

[ElvenEdibles]

...

I noted that in your announcements post that it was a good idea to have space in your inventory for your unequipped items. I think it'd be a good idea if the DMs had the Town Criers shouting this or some kind of automated announcement occurred every x hours/minutes because there are people who do not check the forums at all or do so very sparingly.

[The Rambling Midget]

It's pretty much a universal buff and a free relevel to fix your mistakes. It will take about 10 minutes in game to do and you'll be stronger after.

I'm curious as to whether it would be possible to generate a report of what class/skills/feats/stats were taken at each level, so that players could more easily rebuild their characters after such events. I've been hit by a lot of rebuilds, some completely by surprise, and it can be a real hassle to have to go into PGCC and guess at what I did on an old build, so that I can put it back the way it was.

[DangerDolphin]

It's pretty much a universal buff and a free relevel to fix your mistakes. It will take about 10 minutes in game to do and you'll be stronger after.

I'm curious as to whether it would be possible to generate a report of what class/skills/feats/stats were taken at each level, so that players could more easily rebuild their characters after such events. I've been hit by a lot of rebuilds, some completely by surprise, and it can be a real hassle to have to go into PGCC and guess at what I did on an old build, so that I can put it back the way it was.

Not easily AFAIK. You could maybe save it locally, or -transfer to PGCC and one of those might retain the information to check back on? TBH the best thing to do would be to take screenshots of it right now, or take it apart on PGCC right now 1 level at a time.

[a shrouded figure]

So while I definitely sympathize with lost character concepts and work over changes...

I freaking love our development staff. The volunteer team that we have is incredible. Not to draw attention away from anyone else who is crushing it, but Garrbear is like a mini celebrity to me. Again, understanding that we have a volunteer team, I wonder if there’s a reasonable way to offer true full re-levels to character concepts that are particularly broken with updates. My idea would be like along the lines of...

“Hey, x class is changing, we’re going to be kind enough to do level 1 auto relevels (what you all offer us generally *thank-you*).” ...

..but wait my character is literally worthless now...

“Don’t worry guys, if your character is truly ruined, and you’ve not played another character in (pick a time, three months? Four?) were going to let you schedule a time that works for a to assist you in a complete level 0 rebuild.”

Yes I understand that this is a lot of work, and not something that our passionate team is super interested in doing (from a development standpoint), but if someone been working on a character for literal /months/ I think anyone can appreciate the ridiculous excitement and relief of “not feeling screwed” that you’d be sharing with that person

[Mattamue]

You can save locally and dissect your feat choices with leto.

[Skibbles]

Perhaps some small silver lining for you:

Wazikashi was changed to be a normal weapon instead of defensive so your small sized character can still dual wield katana-like weapons.

A little less damage but the concept is still there.