Guildhouse Update Feedback

[Twohand]

I want to give my feedback about a specific part of the last update, the one that says that all quarters inside a guildhouse must be occupied.

Last year, I had a character owning the Abyssal Fortress for some months, and the faction that we built around that guildhouse was relatively large. Enough to occupy all rooms? Yes, easily. But did we occupy all of them? Actually not. While two quarters were left unoccupied and used as faction storage (the Fortress didn't have a communal storage back then, something thankfully changed with the update today), the other four quarters were rarely occupied all the time. One or two of them were always vacant, even three at times.

So why does an active faction has trouble filling all the quarters in a guildhouse? From personal experience, I would say that people like to do their own things too. Just because you're in a faction doesn't mean you don't have other interests elsewhere. In the case of my example, we had a faction member who at the time owned the Spore Farms, where they conducted their own experiments, where they pursued other interests besides the goals of the Abyssal Fortress faction at the time.

There are other reasons for it too. Maybe they want to have their own fancy house somewhere else, maybe they're worried that the guildhouse might exchange hands, and who knows? Maybe the new owner will kick them out of their quarter inside. It's always a risk. Unoccupied quarters isn't always sign of lack of roleplaying or lack of guildhouse use. I'm sure other factions have dealt with this and still deal with things like this, so I hope that some leeway is given to active factions when considering this new guildhouse rule.

[Hazard]

As someone who has had a character that has occupied/haunted the abyssal citadel for RL years, I can agree with the above..
that same characters have never actually owned a room there. I'm just not comfortable owning a room someone else can lock me out of, or others are able to access and loot.

I like the sentiment behind wanting all the rooms filled, I just don't know how realistic it is. Even very big active factions tend to not fill every room.

Maybe some lee-way could be given if a room is not occupied and the chest is empty (not used for storage), and the guild is just trying.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I get what both of you are saying, and he (irongron) did mention that if its obvious people are trying there will be a lot of leeway involved in his announcement, but I have to ask....if your entire faction has their own places, why do you need a guild house to begin with?

[LichBait]

I dig the update and it will encourage a faction to use the faction house, freeing up more of the server for other people. I think may need to be two things looked at though for every Guildhouse.

Rooms: Make sure that all the rooms in a Guildhouse are decent. Not just tacked on shacks. It would help with the desire to actually have that quarter space as more than a broomcloset.

Mail System: The big draw of a private quarter is private mail that can be placed on the door. (At least for some people). If there was some way to deliver notes to a door /inside/ the quarter owned by a specific individual that may help that concern.

[Skibbles]

Seems I'll just be echoing some of the above. Some of the guild houses I've been in, for very active factions, have some pretty awful rooms mixed with really nice rooms that members will hold out for or just seek alternatives.

The good rooms are usually always taken and on rotation, but the usual 'bad' rooms are always available or owned for very short periods before going back to collecting dust.

I would LOVE to see a mailing system. Log in, get a wisp (and small heart skip as you think it's an assassin warning at first) informing you of mail at your local speedy/goblin messenger office, and you can go to pick it up. I think it would help towards keeping information flow in game, generate some cross traffic RP, and maybe help with the rooming issue.

I've certainly known characters in a faction that were also doing their own thing, including making other factions, and needed a place for their messages and/or meetings.

[Guriila]

I think it might need to be a percentage of rooms. Character turnover on Arelith is very very high. If a big update brings a new or radically changed class (or a big nerf) you often see factions clear out as people shelve characters. I've been in factions with overstuffed moots one week and nobody there two weeks later. Most factions that last seem to have a pretty strong core of maybe 2-4 characters and a constantly revolving cast of dabblers. Not to mention many are involved in more than one faction or members have a faction independent quarter they like elsewhere. Or, of course, some players will have alts with property and can't or won't give them up to take a faction quarter. This is going to be very stressful for guild leaders..

It just doesn't seem realistic to always have a guildhouse 100% full with how flaky the playerbase can be, not saying they should be able to sit empty of course but if there are 6 rooms and one or two probably less than desirable rooms just can't stay filled even though the faction is otherwise very active?

[Irongron]

The abyssal fortress has been given communal storage and first rate rooms.


The truth is there are plenty of factions crying out for such locations, so if you cannot fill one, you should make space for those that can.

Quite honestly, the norm has become deliberately leaving guildhouse rooms empty.

[Dreams]

I think it's a good change, hopefully it promotes an attitude to let things pass on rather than selfishly hoard everything on the server.

[Skibbles]

How can we tell the difference between rooms deliberately left available versus rooms that people just don't want despite having the numbers to fill them?

Thinking on it further I guess there's probably logs of faction leaders telling characters they can't have rooms in the guild house. It's very hard for me to imagine such a thing so I'll have to take it on faith.

This drive for filling up every last living space, regardless of any RP circumstance, is so weird to me. I find it more likely it'll develop contrived, obligatory surface-level RP, like "I'll reinburse you to occupy this room because reasons," or large faction meetings (or faction discords) to find out who has to suck it up and maintain a room nobody wants just so the DM doesn't have to evict everyone out of their guildhouse.

On that note - this is the first time I've heard of where a player can be warned for the (in)actions of other players. I just... is it really that bad? Is Arelith really at this point?

I understand it's not a typical DM warning like a ban, but I'm just in shock that these things will be so heavily regulated, completely OOC, with the expectation that somehow none of it will be handled OOC as seemed the original intent of all this.

I fear that otherwise excellent groups that are generating plenty of inclusive and fun RP for many people, that don't have the proclivity for organizing OOC what should be done in game, being forced towards these tendencies just so they can fulfill conditions, 'check the boxes' if you will, presumably not intended to target them in the first place - thus turning them into what they never were to begin with, metastasizing the original problem, and requiring further regulation in an endless downward spiral.

The mention of further updates will hopefully answer some of these concerns but I'm deeply worried about the implications, and precedent, of some of these recent changes.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

I imagine what the team wants to curb are guildhouses that have 6 quarters that are almost always empty. Trying to quantify how much to fill up a guildhouse would lead to people gaming the system. I figure if you're active and trying to get people to live in the guildhouse and RP there, you're probably fine (In contrast to something like having a 3 person faction and just using the guild house for storage, and doing no recruiting).
But this is just my assumption, I don't know if this is what the team is actually intending.

None of this is really new, I think this came up at one of the big server-wide meetings before. Gron talked about making more properties into things you can bid on, because people were just sitting on them. Maybe this is more of a surface issue than an Underdark issue. All of the properties he named were surface. People had warning that if things didn't change it'd happen. But just like fixture spam, nobody cared until it was too late and the devs had to be more heavy handed to stop it.

[Skibbles]

Thanks for the extra perspective. I wasn't aware this was mentioned in a previous server moot, I'm also not in the discord, so all I can go on is what's mentioned here on the forums.

If it's mostly happening on surface then it would certainly explain my shock, and continuing puzzlement, since it isn't behavior I've personally seen in any great quantity - though I admittedly don't usually pay keen attention to who owns what over extended time.

It sounds like, ultimately, this is just another reason the rest of us can't have nice things.

[Irongron]

Guildhouses, at their best, are RP hubs that drive a narrative on the server, and in the hands of some factions, they really shine. When I design them, I do so in order for player factions to have an opportunity to do that. There are a great many times I see players really make it happen, but then there are also times that I don't.

Let me put 3, sadly common examples.

1. A single player holds a guildhouse with multiple quarters, all empty, so as to grant herself extra storage.

2. A medium size faction owns a guildhouse with six quarters. 1 owns their main guildhouse, while the 5 remaining sit on choice properties elsewhere, so as to expand their empire. All unoccupied quarters are used as extra storage, and are not offered to potential occupants.

3. A settlement is dominated by a small group of players, rather than occupy the buildings that come alongside settlement rule, they deliberately leave them empty, forbidding their purchase. Meanwhile, they sit on many of the houses and quarters in the city, actively preventing other, newer groups from becoming established.

All if these above examples absolutely do happen, on a server where some players complain of not being able to find a quarter, some can sit on as many as ten.

As noted above, this is definitely less of a problem in the UD.

I will do my best to improve quarters in guildhouses, and add extra community storage, but these should absolutely be being used by active factions.

[Nitro]

This is definitely a needed change. I've noted factions actively encouraging people to get properties outside the guildhall in the past to grab even more storage space.

That said, it would be nice to have some QoL updates for those living in a quarter inside a guildhall. You don't even have the protection of someone needing to RP with you before being evicted, you can just wake up one morning to find that the owner has changed keys to the main entrance and all your stuff inside is lost. That's the big reason I've never been interested in acquiring a quarter in a guildhouse.

[Morgy]

1. A single player holds a guildhouse with multiple quarters, all empty, so as to grant herself extra storage.

2. A medium size faction owns a guildhouse with six quarters. 1 owns their main guildhouse, while the 5 remaining sit on choice properties elsewhere, so as to expand their empire. All unoccupied quarters are used as extra storage, and are not offered to potential occupants.

3. A settlement is dominated by a small group of players, rather than occupy the buildings that come alongside settlement rule, they deliberately leave them empty, forbidding their purchase. Meanwhile, they sit on many of the houses and quarters in the city, actively preventing other, newer groups from becoming established.

All if these above examples absolutely do happen, on a server where some players complain of not being able to find a quarter, some can sit on as many as ten.

These are definitely things that happen, and people ought to remember that this update isn't criticising the excellence of your RP. It is ensuring that factions that aren't filling up their guildhouses perhaps need to move elsewhere (such as a large, singular quarter), or expand their numbers more.

[Skibbles]

This answers a lot for me. For a while I've felt like I've been going crazy because these are not things I've witnessed as commonplace in the UD where I've spent much more time than surface - something I clearly haven't rectified soon enough.

I still have great reservations about the sweeping methodology but it seems much less crazy to me now that the perspective is further elaborated in more exacting terms.

[Edens_Fall]

The abyssal fortress has been given communal storage and first rate rooms.


The truth is there are plenty of factions crying out for such locations, so if you cannot fill one, you should make space for those that can.

Quite honestly, the norm has become deliberately leaving guildhouse rooms empty.

Definitely love the change and enforcement of guildhouse use! I for one am excited by the idea of actually having a small chance to aquire one now, when before that chance was absolute zero.

Thank you for taking the hard stance and dealing with the feedback!

[Twohand]

I get what both of you are saying, and he (irongron) did mention that if its obvious people are trying there will be a lot of leeway involved in his announcement, but I have to ask....if your entire faction has their own places, why do you need a guild house to begin with?

To answer your question, in my example of the Abyssal Fortress, the guildhouse was used by our faction as the center and the staging grounds for several plots, some of which can be seen in my screenshots thread where I spam stuff or in our faction kudos thread. I like to think we made very good use of the location, it was undoubtedly one of my favorite times in this server, and this is the reason why I created this thread, because I'm not completely sure if we would have kept the guildhouse under this new rule, and I also worry for others who could be negatively affected by this rule despite their efforts and activity of the faction.

For the record and to reiterate my point, I'm not advocating for this new rule's removal, not at all! Irongron raised some very good points and I wholeheartedly agree and understand them, but I also think that some leeway should be given to active factions that for some reason aren't able to fill all quarter spots, but we already discussed that point and you mentioned it as well. That's all.

[Flower Power]

I will do my best to improve quarters in guildhouses, and add extra community storage, but these should absolutely be being used by active factions.

Is there any chance of Myon actually receiving a guard/army barracks guildhouse, considering it is the only settlement in the game that does not?

It's also good to hear that the 'public' storage spaces in guildhouses will receive a commensurate size increase with the new policy that demands filling them, since storage is the primary draw of guildhouses. I don't think guildhouses should be heralded as a 'driving force' of RP, since most of them tend to be very cloistered - and while some RP is always going to take place behind lock and key, the less it happens (in general) the better.

[jmm2222]

Is there any chance of Myon actually receiving a guard/army barracks guildhouse, considering it is the only settlement in the game that does not?

In terms of military, Myon technically does already have one as outlined in the Founder's Charter:

"Founder's Charter - The Evermeet Accord

...

Only in the DEFENCE OF THE CITY, are the two bound in COMMON CAUSE, and the CORONAL of MYON may recommend any CITIZEN to the Guldorand Garrison."

Militants of Myon can be rec'd to the Garrison by the Coronal for the Lord Marshal/High Sheriff to allow to work there.

As for internal Barracks, like in Myon proper, I cannot speak for, but as far as Myon goes in the grand scheme of Guldorand and such, they are able to join the Garrison if they want, but none have so far.

[Spriggan Bride]

What do factions really want in a guild house? I’d suggest quite a lot of them don’t actually want guildhouses with quarters but they do want a safe and important-feeling place to meet that isn’t a tiny personal quarter or a room in an inn. They want that throne and meeting table for the bi-weekly moot and the door that locks more than anything else.

Maybe a perk of citizenship in a settlement could be a cool meeting hall that you can pay to reserve (like- if the Bendir Bird Watchers want to meet next Saturday in private they could reserve the meeting hall for a chunk of time a week in advance). Then factions that don’t completely dominate a character’s story might not NEED a guild hall.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

What do factions really want in a guild house? I’d suggest quite a lot of them don’t actually want guildhouses with quarters but they do want a safe and important-feeling place to meet that isn’t a tiny personal quarter or a room in an inn. They want that throne and meeting table for the bi-weekly moot and the door that locks more than anything else.

This is true. I owned the Sibayad guildhouse for a while. It's one of the best quarters I had. The biggest perk was the bottom floor was separated from upstairs by a key door, I turned it into a meeting area where guild members could bring guests. Upstairs was for a member-only library.

[Definately Not A Mimic]

I would say a guild house needs:

*A large meeting room with table

*Either an area to the side or separate room for smaller gathering and work stations - group storage

*An office type area - obviously this could vary in degree because there are so many different types of factions, but the office and maybe even the group storage would be secure for messages you don't want just anyone who visits able to read.

*And a private quarter for the owner with a personal storage chest.

*I would suggest if you have additional bedrooms which sometimes is nice to have, they have an outside access door - either to a hallway or small garden or training yard. Some way for the owner to still get access if the guild gets taken over so they don't lose their things and the risk goes down, but also gives a way that someone could possibly infiltrate and snag a room. With that in mind, I would suggest that bedroom door not able to be opened into the guild unless they own a guild key.


Just a few ideas. The guild doesn't have to be massive but having the basics people want, meeting space, storage, privacy. Add in the chance for rp with someone snagging a corner of the building but also gives the faction member security. Am I missing anything?

Hard to customize much further without catering to specific types of groups imo.

[Nitro]

What do factions really want in a guild house? I’d suggest quite a lot of them don’t actually want guildhouses with quarters but they do want a safe and important-feeling place to meet that isn’t a tiny personal quarter or a room in an inn. They want that throne and meeting table for the bi-weekly moot and the door that locks more than anything else.

Maybe a perk of citizenship in a settlement could be a cool meeting hall that you can pay to reserve (like- if the Bendir Bird Watchers want to meet next Saturday in private they could reserve the meeting hall for a chunk of time a week in advance). Then factions that don’t completely dominate a character’s story might not NEED a guild hall.

Cordor already has meeting rooms that can be rented temporarily.

[Anatida]

Apparently my opinion is in the lowest minority, but speaking as someone who generally ends up involved in large factions - I don't understand why a faction of 50-60 people using four or five quarters in a guild house as shared storage (meaning the quarters are not individually owned) is a bad thing. When the majority of those people are involved in crafting items for the mercantile efforts of the server populous, doesn't it make MORE sense for them to be able to share resources in one place?

Even as a PC that focuses on one main craft, 20 storage slots in a chest, and a completely full character inventory doesn't begin to cover it.

[Curve]

There is nothing to stop them from sharing keys to their individual quarters within the guildhouse if they want to share storage.