Invisible Blade Balance Thread

[Maladus]

The Invisible Blade as written in the source books (interestingly it is in Complete Warrior and not Complete Scoundrel) gains Sneak Attacks with a dagger at level 1. Thus, when attacking with a dagger, any class that fulfilled the prerequisites would have a sneak attack, not that the class was intended for classes with sneaks already.

It does support your notion that sneak immune creatures are immune to the bleed. I understand why and I get that it does break the immersion, but as a player of a character that relies on sneaks to do damage, it is already excruciating the number of Sneak immune enemies. So, selfishly I don't want it to work that way.

[Skibbles]

The Invisible Blade as written in the source books (interestingly it is in Complete Warrior and not Complete Scoundrel) gains Sneak Attacks with a dagger at level 1. Thus, when attacking with a dagger, any class that fulfilled the prerequisites would have a sneak attack, not that the class was intended for classes with sneaks already.

It does support your notion that sneak immune creatures are immune to the bleed. I understand why and I get that it does break the immersion, but as a player of a character that relies on sneaks to do damage, it is already excruciating the number of Sneak immune enemies. So, selfishly I don't want it to work that way.

Ah. I don't have those source books, and had to rely on the links provided in the wiki.

I wasn't aware it came with sneak attack, but still choose to stand by my opinion that IB should be better linked to the effects its supposedly inflicting which are by no means supernatural that I can find (unless that's in the PNP books too).

There's a great deal of stuff that could make it very cool, especially if such feats as the aforementioned Epic Precision was added, balanced for Arelith content (I think it would be pretty sweet if such a feat could do something like half sneak attack damage to immune creature), and the class itself expanded to take epic levels and thus such feats be made available exclusively to the class.

Edit to prevent double posting:

Just had an idea. What if Invisible Blade wasn't a class but instead a Rogue Path that trades the grenade/special consumables skill for enhanced sneaks, bleeds, crippling attacks, and the ability to inflict maluses to creatures normally immune at higher levels?

[Anomandaris]

The Invisible Blade as written in the source books (interestingly it is in Complete Warrior and not Complete Scoundrel) gains Sneak Attacks with a dagger at level 1. Thus, when attacking with a dagger, any class that fulfilled the prerequisites would have a sneak attack, not that the class was intended for classes with sneaks already.

It does support your notion that sneak immune creatures are immune to the bleed. I understand why and I get that it does break the immersion, but as a player of a character that relies on sneaks to do damage, it is already excruciating the number of Sneak immune enemies. So, selfishly I don't want it to work that way.

Ah. I don't have those source books, and had to rely on the links provided in the wiki.

I wasn't aware it came with sneak attack, but still choose to stand by my opinion that IB should be better linked to the effects its supposedly inflicting which are by no means supernatural that I can find (unless that's in the PNP books too).

There's a great deal of stuff that could make it very cool, especially if such feats as the aforementioned Epic Precision was added, balanced for Arelith content (I think it would be pretty sweet if such a feat could do something like half sneak attack damage to immune creature), and the class itself expanded to take epic levels and thus such feats be made available exclusively to the class.

Edit to prevent double posting:

Just had an idea. What if Invisible Blade wasn't a class but instead a Rogue Path that trades the grenade/special consumables skill for enhanced sneaks, bleeds, crippling attacks, and the ability to inflict maluses to creatures normally immune at higher levels?

This and your last post kind of nailed it for me. At the end of the day it's a RP server in a pretty well fleshed out setting. The setting has fairly established lore and mechanics based on a ton of source material. The fact you can bleed skeletons is silly and purely for the sake of some sort of balance of the ability. I really don't think that's how we should be designing things.

It's in essence stating that Mechanics & Balance>Lore & Setting Congruence. That sounds more like a PvP arena than a RP sandbox.

I find it hard to believe the class would be subjected to a whole additional rebuild given this is the second go. That said, I do think that these kinds of class designs would benefit from a community based ideation process on the front end (much like Gron did w/ enchantment basin thread). There are some really amazing ideas in this thread that would produce an effective, not OP and unique class/path/whatever.

But at this point, it's kind of hard to reinvent the class without a ton of re-work, so most of this wonderful ideation is not really helpful if it deviates too far past the fundamental structure of the current mechanics.

[Ork]

Don't agree with you there Ork, it being instant doesn't remove counterplay. The damage is clearly displayed every round.

You don't have to argee with me. Walk me through how you would react when you see your opponent attempting to apply a healkit or use resto if eviscerate is an instant action.

[Aniel]

Re: bleeds on crit immune enemies

This is technically a bug that sprung up when it was decoupled from sneak attacks to any attack that hasn't been patched just yet. I don't intend on keeping it around. It was by no means a conscious decision or a balancing act.

Numbers are still subject to tweaks, but, with the place they've been moved to now, any changes to IB are likely to be upward adjustments.

[Maladus]

Don't agree with you there Ork, it being instant doesn't remove counterplay. The damage is clearly displayed every round.

You don't have to argee with me. Walk me through how you would react when you see your opponent attempting to apply a healkit or use resto if eviscerate is an instant action.

Depends on the situation. If they are almost dead, I'd use Eviscerate. If they aren't then I'd keep attacking.

[Ork]

Don't agree with you there Ork, it being instant doesn't remove counterplay. The damage is clearly displayed every round.

You don't have to argee with me. Walk me through how you would react when you see your opponent attempting to apply a healkit or use resto if eviscerate is an instant action.

Depends on the situation. If they are almost dead, I'd use Eviscerate. If they aren't then I'd keep attacking.

Instant actions trigger without interrupting your attack sequence. By failing to activate, you miss out on damage. There is no counterplay if eviscerate is an instant action. Everyone would use it at the immediate sign of someone trying to remove bleed stacks.

[Maladus]

Ok, but I've yet to hear a workable solution to it being REALLY bad if it isn't.

[cantalyssa]

Redacted (Feel free to delete these posts)

[Maladus]

Arcane Bleed and Eviscerate > Instant Action
Eviscerate > 3 Minute CD

Boom. Counterplay.

[Ork]

If someone is taking a round to use a removal ability, they aren't taking an action against you. These sort of discussions turn towards hypothetical like this, but before we go beyond into more of them - I challenge you to discuss these features with legitimately good players that know this game. Practice in PGCC with someone that knows what they're doing. Discuss without defensiveness.

[cantalyssa]

Redacted (Feel free to delete these posts)

[Ork]

You've convinced yourself you're right, and I understand that because I've also done the same, except I have seen discussions of IB with players that truly understand, live-and-breath PvP mechanics.

Action economy is one of the greatest balancing tools a developer can use, and turning abilities instantaneous would turn beasts these individuals are already creating into monsters.

My comments aren't really directed at you because you seem self-assured you're correct, but more for the people making decisions about IB or for players interested in trying them out.

[Tarkus the dog]

I think a well built Invisible Blade build would love nothing more than to see someone try to read a restoration scroll in their face.

[Good Character]

I think I well built Invisible Blade build would love nothing more than to see someone read a restoration scroll in their face.

This.

None of the abilities need to be instant actions. Bleed and Eviscerate solely need adjusted numbers now that it's considered Slashing rather than Magical.

I will say the Heal DC needs to be boosted. In my experience, a lot of people dump only 8-12 heal. At 21 (assuming 12 dumped) heal you would only need to roll a 4 with a +10 heal kit. The DC should be between 40 to 45, or be harder to remove by 1 per stack up to 10.

[Skibbles]

Re: bleeds on crit immune enemies

This is technically a bug that sprung up when it was decoupled from sneak attacks to any attack that hasn't been patched just yet. I don't intend on keeping it around. It was by no means a conscious decision or a balancing act.

Numbers are still subject to tweaks, but, with the place they've been moved to now, any changes to IB are likely to be upward adjustments.

Thanks for the clarification! That makes a lot more sense.

I'm still very much hoping eviscerate is considered for removal in favor of the abilities and flavor that the class seems to have in all the other sources, requiring more investment than 3, as it seems like IB will live or die based on the power of this one skill alone (unless the arcane boop takes the front running as overpowered again).

In other words I feel like it's either going to be just strong enough to where everyone will take it and a meta springs up focusing directly around it, or just weak enough to where any alternative is better. Kind of like how EDK, also being a one-trick-pony, was ubiquitous across the server one day - and completely absent the next. Last year's quarterstaff craze feels similar as well.

[AstralUniverse]

You should listen to Ork really.


By *not* using Eviscerate you are pressuring your foe to stop attacking you every few rounds and remove the bleed stacks. If Eviscerate is instant action, or special attack (like KD, disarm) it is way to easy to use *reactively* when someone is reaching for their bleed stacks removal method of their choosing (kit, wand) and they will always take all the eviscerate damage while still wasting a round on trying to remove the stacks and it would be as terrible design as it can possibly get. The whole point is that it's hard to use but has no CD. It's purely strategic, rather than the braindead button some players here want it to be.

I think a well built Invisible Blade build would love nothing more than to see someone try to read a restoration scroll in their face.

A guy who gets it.

A well built IB isnt depended on eviscerate for kill pressure, it's already repaying it's value by screwing up the foe's action economy, forcing them to either flat-foot or be kicked off Expertise, which is great for many builds as is.

[Dreams]

I think people are getting too tied up with balancing this and less in the 'way it feels when you play it'. I've been testing out IB over a variety of different builds to see how this plays out in PvE and PvP.

PvE: You never use Eviscerate if you're a non-sneak-focused build. Most mobs will die by the time you have enough stacks for eviscerate to be useful. It IS still very useful as a finisher vs high HP mobs, but still not worth using opposed to leaving the stacks when it comes to high AC mobs.

PvP: Before the nerfs, Eviscerate was the massive boom ending which was broken. After the nerfs, you're in a similar situation to above. You would barely consider using it because the pressure of keeping those stacks going is much more important than the meager damage that is being done. Consider also the opportunity cost of wasting 2 rounds to activate this ability (usually turns into 2 rounds because even if you time it well, it is cancelling your current round, starting at the next round, then cancelling your queue so you'll need to restart the round after). After the nerf, IB has become better off not using Eviscerate at all in PvP.

When I was arguing for an instant-trigger action, it came with caveat that the damage was significantly lower than the initial iteration of IB. As it currently stands, I think that it shouldn't be a instant trigger in the sense that Blinding Speed is (where you tap it and it comes into effect), rather it should be an ability triggered like Knockdown (where you land a normal hit for it to take effect). This still requires you to hit the target. Yes, you are also getting your weapon damage and normal attacks in, but as I said before this is with the assumption that damage is balanced accordingly.

The main point is that it FEELS clunky and unfun to use. There's no benefit to using it that isn't better served by not using it. If there are changes to Eviscerate, I'd want to see it become smoother in the gameplay. I don't care where the numbers go, I just want it to be smooth to use!

[Maladus]

I'm willing to give it a go as is so long as the damage is boosted. The nerf was warranted but I think it was done to an extreme.

I would also like to add that the active abilities for the class should be added to the -usefeat list as I've said a few times already in this thread. I still think the feel of the class will be off, but I'll defer to those with more knowledge and experience in PvP then me.

I just still find it odd that people are advocating for an ability by suggesting the best way to use it is to NOT use it, but here we are.

[Dreams]

I just still find it odd that people are advocating for an ability by suggesting the best way to use it is to NOT use it, but here we are.

This is because of opportunity cost and threat. By not using Eviscerate and by continuing to build up stacks, you force the defender into a position of considering (Damage over time + risk of execute move) vs (Wasting a round to remove the damage over time/risk, but receiving attacks during that round).

That said, that's how it currently stands, and this might change if numbers move around or if the ability becomes less clunky.

[Cagus]

I would like to remind, that as it is now, there is still miniscule probability, that you eviscerate less damage than the tick would do
min(2d4) = 2
tick = 3
don't really even understand why there is 2d4, when 3d3 would make much more sense (you at least do damage which ticks every round)

but I have to agree with those, who say this is useless ability, and you will never use it in PvP ever.


And I would remind that the problem I see was implementation, again.
For this class was on live server implemented before it was on test. You need this stuff having at least week or two, before you let this on live.


P.S.: Btw. by numbers, every decent meleé does at least 30 dmg on hit. You get 10,5 avg from eviscerate for that hit. It is +-25%. This is not broken number. 2d4 is abysmal.
Also let those activatable abilities give more stacks. Both of them.

P.P.S: By the way, this concept should have been implemented into monk class. Instead of giving monk str fighter level damage, ED and whirlwind, cutting off its singnature properties (MS, SR) , it should have been boosted by mechanics like this. Use a lot of low-damage attacks, which stacks something of worth. As natural anticaster, even arcane bleed this would fit him. Chi stacks to explode. Chi to oppose magic. Could even work on those half-of-the-mechanics immune pms.
This took uninspiring turn.

[AstralUniverse]

I just still find it odd that people are advocating for an ability by suggesting the best way to use it is to NOT use it, but here we are.

The threat of using an ability is an aspect in so many games (like assassins in games like league and dota, where sometimes their job is to look scary and buy their mages space, because of the threat of their abilities). If you didnt have this ability at all, the threat wasnt there either so there will be scenarios where not using it is the better call, sure, and it's all good and makes sense logically. That said, you can still use it to execute if your opponent doesnt keep good track of the stacks and is disrespectful in their action economy.

[mourisson1]

That said, you can still use it to execute if your opponent doesnt keep good track of the stacks and is disrespectful in their action economy.

And in the worst scenario, it will deal less dmg than regular tick, removes stack and as a free bonus will make your oponnent laugh. Seems good execute to me.

[Cabarcos]

I have a sneaking suspicion that rather than it being a dip, its 3 levels are a limit so that classes like rogue can't max their AB without adding a third class and all the trade offs that come with it. Dodge is taken by a couple classes mainly shadowdancer and weaponmaster, I think perhaps dirty fighting would fit Invisible Blade nicely. Could even be modified by the class to act as one of the abilities, trading all attacks in a round for something special sounds about right.

I'm planning a rogue and this concerns me, looks like I'll have to get 3 levels in another class to get 4 attacks.

Dirty fighting looks pretty useless, I've been tempted to get it several times for RP reasons but at the end... To throw sand at the eyes of your oponent so you can get a sneak a attack or something like that would be nice.

One more thing:

Specialty Weapons: Assassin, Harper Scout, Rogue, and Shadowdancer levels stack with Rogue levels when qualifying for the +1 AB to Rogue proficiency weapons at levels 19 and 24

I think that invisible Blade levels should stack too:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Daggermaster:
Daggermasters, also sometimes called invisible blades, are deadly rogues who prefer to use light blades, particularly daggers, in combat.

[Watchful Glare]

You should listen to Ork really.


By *not* using Eviscerate you are pressuring your foe to stop attacking you every few rounds and remove the bleed stacks. If Eviscerate is instant action, or special attack (like KD, disarm) it is way to easy to use *reactively* when someone is reaching for their bleed stacks removal method of their choosing (kit, wand) and they will always take all the eviscerate damage while still wasting a round on trying to remove the stacks and it would be as terrible design as it can possibly get. The whole point is that it's hard to use but has no CD. It's purely strategic, rather than the braindead button some players here want it to be.

I think a well built Invisible Blade build would love nothing more than to see someone try to read a restoration scroll in their face.

A guy who gets it.

A well built IB isnt depended on eviscerate for kill pressure, it's already repaying it's value by screwing up the foe's action economy, forcing them to either flat-foot or be kicked off Expertise, which is great for many builds as is.

I will add that Eviscerate is not instant action. It takes a full round to cast where you just stare at your enemy, flat-footed. Perhaps it was intended that way but it's not in practice. The damage is also underwhelming. It's simply much better to let the stacks do their work. In most instances the fights will be over long before it becomes relevant.

After watching the stats pre to post nerf I'd agree that changes were needed, but with that many changes it got downgraded to redundancy.

Currently the only two worthwhile abilities are Bleeding Wound, which is good in PvE, specially if your damage output is not great (It's the only situation in which someone will eat 10~20 attacks and still be alright enough for it to come into play. It also does not pierce damage resistance of any sort, therefore it would need two consecutive rounds of landing every single attack to start doing some damage [8 attacks on average] to deal with something as basic as a stoneskin. By then however, the outcome of any fight would have been decided). And Crippling Throw.

Arcane Bleed is good to have there but it does nothing that a breach wand wouldn't do and at a distance too where Arcane Bleed you have to be up in their face and consumes your action while they wail on you, and it is also touch attack meaning 25% of failure from concealment. Eviscerate is just not worth it. The stacks are assured damage and will do better damage over time. It's not worth flat-footing yourself an entire round to do mediocre damage when you could just keep attacking another round and do five times that amount, even if you were fighting a wall and it already had 100 stacks on it.