Recent Property Sales Update

[Drogo Gyslain]

If you know, you know.

[Curve]

This bums me out so hard. It is just disappointing. That being said I agree with Nitro in that at least it is naked and able to be interacted with now. That feels like a cruddy consolation prize, but this same thing was going on before just without the character sprites being involved.

[DM Snowcat]

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I've yet to see a shop or decent quarter be pinged as 'Soon to be for sale!' without people camping it.

I have seen quite a few, as player, and as DM. They do happen, but not perhaps the most 'desired' houses.

[MRFTW]

I have seen quite a few, as player, and as DM. They do happen, but not perhaps the most 'desired' houses.

Dunmarle doesn't count

[Drogo Gyslain]

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I've yet to see a shop or decent quarter be pinged as 'Soon to be for sale!' without people camping it.

I have seen quite a few, as player, and as DM. They do happen, but not perhaps the most 'desired' houses.

The Fact is, that, it is disgustingly easy to write macros that will enable your character to offline check those placards, once a minute? Once every 5 minutes? Hell, once ever 15 seconds if you want to get super sloppy with it. (I know, because I've written some of them for games like FFXIV).

After alot of the discussion regarding the usage of the Auction system and it's benefits, I do see where alot of the points were coming from, but this behaviour has always been something I have been worried about happening, I've seen it before alot (see the FFXIV image posted above) and it's something players are simply willing to do to get what they want, rules be damned.

Sign camping is even seen in Real Life, with people waiting literal DAYS outside places like Best buy and Gamestop for the latest game or phone, or new console. It's something ingrained in the human psyche as a whole that if you want something, someone will always be willing to wait in line to be first to get the chance at it, everyone elses wants irrelevant.

The only - decent - solution I can think that compromises the systems would be to have the auctions housed at a central location that can be easily accessed similar to how the Cordor Registry is set up, and then have people go to an NPC to purchase land deeds and house titles from. Remove the function of sale from infront of the house, and assign it to a settlement representative who would be public. Keeping everything focused on an NPC, similar to the Law keeping system with the government NPCs would remove the hastle of campers (because what is someone going to do, camp an NPC all day long? It's a pretty good way to get smacked by other PCs.)

[Party in the forest at midnight]

If people are camping and you see them, it lets you know the property is up for sale. That's something you couldn't see before. This is only an issue because you can see it. Prior, the houses would be fully unavailable to everyone because people would trade them off to friends if they were desirable.

[Hazard]

Kill them.

[AstralUniverse]

If their reasoning nothing deeper than "I've been waiting here longer than you so it should be mine" definitely kill them lol

[Drogo Gyslain]

Kill them.

I'm honestly suprised this hasn't happened more.

[magistrasa]

If their reasoning nothing deeper than "I've been waiting here longer than you so it should be mine" definitely kill them lol

Why is this any less valid than any other reason? It's not the person's fault that they have more free time than you do, and it's certainly not their fault that this is what the new system tacitly encourages. We're acting like the fact that someone wants something enough to wait and watch for it is an act of personal antagonism that needs to be punished. Jesus this game really brings out the worst in us doesn't it.

[Cabarcos]

To have a room is very nice, but what I usually really want is the chest that is inside and allows me store 20 items.
Maybe a solution will be to able to have a chest/locker in a building that you can rent.

I don't have a room in Cordor, but I can have a locker, for example.

I've only had a shop in Skaal once, and I'm not usually eager to, but I can't live without a room. The 12 from the citizenship are not enough, at least for me.

I'm usually able to get a room in what I think are the less desired places.

[The GrumpyCat]

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I've yet to see a shop or decent quarter be pinged as 'Soon to be for sale!' without people camping it.

I have seen quite a few, as player, and as DM. They do happen, but not perhaps the most 'desired' houses.

Just as a point - To me this brings up a very interesting point and one worth keeping in mind.

The response to this isn't really about storage.

That manor people are hanging around? Likely has about as much storage opportunity (20 slots) as that small quarter in an inn. So the answer 'we need moar storage!' I don't think is entirely correct. I'm not saying it has no truth in it - or that more storage/vaults ect would be a bad idea - but I don't think it'd fix' the situaiton.

Ultimatly a fair few amount of people want to live in nice, big, spacious and/or auspicious quarters - and such quarters will always have a lot more desirability than small rooms.

This isn't really to offer any great solutions, but I think any solution which is 'just add moar storage' doesn't really deal with the entirity of the issue.

[Edens_Fall]

People like to have nice things and status. Owning a guildhouse by default gets you into alot of RP and factions. That's what people want. They want to own that castle and let the world know it.

It's not bad or wrong. It's just human.

[Party in the forest at midnight]

Ultimatly a fair few amount of people want to live in nice, big, spacious and/or auspicious quarters - and such quarters will always have a lot more desirability than small rooms.

This isn't really to offer any great solutions, but I think any solution which is 'just add moar storage' doesn't really deal with the entirity of the issue.

This is why I keep asking for small undesirable housing in places like Sibayad or even the Crow's Nest, so people can get a non-settlement shack and move out once they find something better. High turnover small housing is good, unfortunately most of it is in settlements.

[Cabarcos]

I don't think that to have more storage will be the solution but will help.
To gain storage, If you don't have a room you need to become a citizen and that for some characters could make no sense, at least at the moment.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I've yet to see a shop or decent quarter be pinged as 'Soon to be for sale!' without people camping it.

I have seen quite a few, as player, and as DM. They do happen, but not perhaps the most 'desired' houses.

Just as a point - To me this brings up a very interesting point and one worth keeping in mind.

The response to this isn't really about storage.

That manor people are hanging around? Likely has about as much storage opportunity (20 slots) as that small quarter in an inn. So the answer 'we need moar storage!' I don't think is entirely correct. I'm not saying it has no truth in it - or that more storage/vaults ect would be a bad idea - but I don't think it'd fix' the situaiton.

Ultimatly a fair few amount of people want to live in nice, big, spacious and/or auspicious quarters - and such quarters will always have a lot more desirability than small rooms.

This isn't really to offer any great solutions, but I think any solution which is 'just add moar storage' doesn't really deal with the entirity of the issue.

You're right that the issue isn't just storage. It's safe, private storage. The fact that a quarter comes with privacy for clandestine RP and storage is the one-two punch that makes it so desirable- and I suspect that the quarters that are in highest demand outside regulated leadership/cultural buildings would be the ones that have an extra door and lock and trap opportunity for the storage chest inside them, followed by whatever has the most geographical convenience for the RP of the people purchasing them.

"Safe and private" is a relative term, but maxing out the lock and trap system will usually do the trick.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

We should abolish private property because this isn't the 21st century housing crisis.

Whenever someone calls Arelith "medieval" again or the setting "middle ages", I will refer them to this thread. It's such a massive middle finger to that notion.

The fact "waiting for hours" outside a property sign is not a rule break is bad DM policy. This is a very "hands off" approach and is inadvertently condoning this kind of behaviour as acceptable. But it shouldn't be, because it's not a thing any reasonable would-be adventurer would do in a fantasy world.

Maybe DMs hands are tied because of the mechanical system - idk. But I don't know who thinks its a good idea to allow this kind of behaviour to fly.

Maybe I'm hyperbolic and it's not happening egregiously, so.

[Anomandaris]

We should abolish private property because this isn't the 21st century housing crisis.

Whenever someone calls Arelith "medieval" again or the setting "middle ages", I will refer them to this thread. It's such a massive middle finger to that notion.

The fact "waiting for hours" outside a property sign is not a rule break is bad DM policy. This is a very "hands off" approach and is inadvertently condoning this kind of behaviour as acceptable. But it shouldn't be, because it's not a thing any reasonable would-be adventurer would do in a fantasy world.

Maybe DMs hands are tied because of the mechanical system - idk. But I don't know who thinks its a good idea to allow this kind of behaviour to fly.

Maybe I'm hyperbolic and it's not happening egregiously, so.

It's because the alternative is even more absurd and silly. The result of the change is basically you can only ever purchase a property that you find "randomly." You'd have to implement a rule stating that standing "near" a sign for more than a x minutes or so is a "rule break" which is ridiculous.

The problem is there is no player/character agency, whatsoever, to obtain a property, let alone a desirable one. The only way means working AROUND/WITH the mechanics. In this case, that means a random time release. Thus, the only thing you can do to increase your odds of getting a property, which is a very logical IC thing to do as well, is stand around and wait.

This entire point and discussion is the reason why (some/many) said that this particular solution, to what was a legitimate problem (property hoarding and OOC hand-offs), was not a particularly great one. I.e. it requires/encourages silly behavior because it's literally the only option to try and get properties, without just pretending you don't care and hoping you'll find one randomly.

[Curve]

it's not a thing any reasonable would-be adventurer would do in a fantasy world.

I can't agree with this more. I am not tooting my own horn when I say that my characters do not do things like this. I strive to make and play characters who are believable and function reasonably, doing reasonable things. No matter what you as a player think of this update to interact with it in such a gamey and ridiculous way is nothing more than silly. If the update promotes this kind of behavior or not it is your choice as players if we interact with it in this way.

[Duchess Says]

The problem is there is no player/character agency, whatsoever, to obtain a property, let alone a desirable one. The only way means working AROUND/WITH the mechanics. In this case, that means a random time release. Thus, the only thing you can do to increase your odds of getting a property, which is a very logical IC thing to do as well, is stand around and wait.

This entire point and discussion is the reason why (some/many) said that this particular solution, to what was a legitimate problem (property hoarding and OOC hand-offs), was not a particularly great one. I.e. it requires/encourages silly behavior because it's literally the only option to try and get properties, without just pretending you don't care and hoping you'll find one randomly.

Similarly I believe players will hold on to a property for much longer than they might have because now there's less likelihood something desirable will open up to replace it. Desirable places aren't opening up because players are afraid to release what they have because you can't find something to replace it... Vicious circle.

Bare bones, generic, less desirable housing seems as easy to get as ever but I don't feel the in-demand spots are more available now than before the change and may even be +less+ so since you can't conduct RP-backed purchases and swaps.

This is just observation from looking around and talking to the players I talk to so maybe I'm incorrect. But knowing human nature and the way we tend to be hoarders in this game I would expect properties opening up now are almost solely from deleted or shelved characters. Before, players would frequently move around to shift their RP to different settlements, trade up to a better place, simply get bored of one location etc but now that you're very unlikely to luck into an open equivalent I doubt that's still the case. Or, they'd drop a property on one character because they wanted to focus on another-- but when the another is very unlikely to stumble upon a place they'll just keep doing the bare minimum to keep what they have on the first.

[AstralUniverse]

If their reasoning nothing deeper than "I've been waiting here longer than you so it should be mine" definitely kill them lol

Why is this any less valid than any other reason? It's not the person's fault that they have more free time than you do, and it's certainly not their fault that this is what the new system tacitly encourages. We're acting like the fact that someone wants something enough to wait and watch for it is an act of personal antagonism that needs to be punished. Jesus this game really brings out the worst in us doesn't it.

This game brings out the worst and the best and everything in between, really. People are... people.

As for the 'killing them' part. Well, I just dont find that someone's playing time should really factor ICly when I decide whether or not I really want this property and willing to fight for it. So if they bring out this card, I will treat it as a really shallow way to end the 'conflict' over the property. But if they actually tell my character a fine story about why they want this property, interact with me in some way, I am in fact less likely to kill bash them and take their seat in the line. That's what I meant really.

[ReverentBlade]

I consider this change to be one of the worst and most RP-adverse changes the server has done. It is explicitly anti-faction and anti-cooperative storytelling.

Not only that, but it doesn't really accomplish the intended goal. Now the system is just gamed a different way. A worse, video-gamey, difficult-to-explain-IC way. Close-knit groups that coordinate IC can still let each other know when a property is being released, and set up shifts to puppy guard it. Individuals with a lot of free time can also camp locations. What you've actually done is make it even -more- difficult for casual players to get anything nice.

Previously, they could try to make friends and allies (you know...roleplaying...) with their limited time and have a chance of getting something instead of using that time to prowl cities and camp signs.

The spoils system of political intrigue and faction building has been hit with a bloody hammer and its a shame to see.

You didn't make anything more fun or more fair, you just shifted the favored population and washed your hands of the moderation responsibility.

[ElvenEdibles]

This seems to have taken more away from the server than it's given to it.

[Woper_The_Black]

Maybe it could be set up so that once you interact with the sign your "intention to buy" is recorded and you then can't interact with the sign again. Each individual "intention to buy" is recorded and once the timer is up a name is chosen at random to own the property, money deducted from the PC account and the quarter timer starting from sale. This way it doesn't matter what time zone you are on or if you are casual or not you have an equal chance of getting a property. Maybe it can be done so that if you're a member of a faction it can flag it, so you don't get 20 people from the same faction fudging/increases the odds.... You could still try for multiple properties but if you succeed with one you drop off all others. No idea if it's even possible, just throwing it out there...

[Irongron]

Maybe it could be set up so that once you interact with the sign your "intention to buy" is recorded and you then can't interact with the sign again. Each individual "intention to buy" is recorded and once the timer is up a name is chosen at random to own the property, money deducted from the PC account and the quarter timer starting from sale. This way it doesn't matter what time zone you are on or if you are casual or not you have an equal chance of getting a property. Maybe it can be done so that if you're a member of a faction it can flag it, so you don't get 20 people from the same faction fudging/increases the odds.... You could still try for multiple properties but if you succeed with one you drop off all others. No idea if it's even possible, just throwing it out there...

This really isn't a bad idea, and we may follow this suggestion when we invariably look at this again.

In the meantime please remember there area ton of exceptions here, from all the various civic buildings (theatres, barracks, inns, temples rtc), to the now more secured guildhouses, many of which will be actively seeking tenants due to the new rulings, to all those buildings and shops that fall below the threshhold value. We will not, however, go back to how things were, where especially in settlements you had certain players exercising total control over who received what shop and quarter.