Community and Cooperation; A lack thereof

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

This most recent DM reminder brought me back to a headspace I was in a bit over a year ago. At the time, I felt a burgeoning sense of frustration with my presence on the server. I felt looked down on when I tried to contribute to the development of the culture of the server on the forums, I felt unfairly treated by a railroad spike that was driven into my story DM-side, and I felt the hands-off approach of the administration above was too laissez-faire to address any of the situation.

A year plus of distance and separation have allowed me to see that while these feelings were real and had causes, they were a symptom of a much larger issue.

Arelith aims to achieve something very ambitious - it is the only game server in the history of my 30+ years playing games that attempts to open up a single table-top-esque style of RP to literal thousands of people. The problem is it attempts to generate this environment while being too permissive of its inhabitants' offenses against that setting, and the argument most often used to permit those offenses is "it's within the rules, and it's just a game, games should be fun."

I respect the idea of where this sentiment comes from, but ultimately, after about 20 years of playing various online servers, I've come to the conclusion that the intended design goal is ultimately flawed, because it sacrifices the atmosphere it aims for in an attempt to preserve the presence of player numbers. It does this by allowing people who dance on the edge of the rules while violating the spirit to get away with murder (sometimes literally) and absolutely destroying people who want to work with others for a cooperative narrative when they fall outside the letter of the rule, or fall afoul of someone popular with questionable playing practices. (I will not defend this statement with details; it is an observation I've come to after repeated incidents, and I'm not trying to throw shade at any one person, but at the persistence of this method of execution).

You cannot have a cooperative narrative with people you don't trust. Such an environment requires a "Yes, and" mentality commonly attributed to improv performances. It requires the trust in your other players that your narrative design can exist as a meaningful part of theirs, that even though your immediate goals might not be in sync with the goals of the people you're interacting with, the two or more of you are invested together in finding an interesting resolution that leaves all players/writers feeling satisfied with the compromise.

Arelith does not provide this outside of small, insular groups, and that's because, truthfully, IMO it is too big for the size of the hammer it's willing to swing. Because someone can walk up to you, kill you for no discernible reason you know after a few lines of RP, and then fall back on the "FOIG, but it was totally IC and it's what my character would have done" as a valid defense, these insular groups are formed OOC rather than IC.

OOC, the server has such a massive culture of mistrust, and zero perspective on the term "dramatic irony," which is truly a shame, because it's one of the most useful dramatic concepts in writing. That "Find Out In Game" is a valid server acronym, a valid answer to multiple lore questions, is a disdainful, dismissive slap in the face to people who come here and love the world they find, and want to be more immersed in its culture and lore, because heaven forbid the other guys learn something we can keep to ourselves until it's convenient for our own personal narrative.

Arelith is a beautifully constructed server. The hours of labor and love that have gone into building it, coding it, and establishing its history and environment are praise-worthy and laudable. The poor, poor souls who have attempted to enforce the rules over the years have given tens of thousands of hours of thankless service in effort towards an amazing goal, hamstrung in their efforts by being forced to keep, always, in the back of their minds, a four to five digit number known as "player count."

So what's my point? Turn off PvP? Obviously not. Abolish all in-game discovery? Nope, not that either. Am I just ragging on the server that's brought me years of fun because it also brought me stress? No.

My point is a matter of perspective, one I'd like to address to the team. I believe, at some point, if you don't want Arelith to die in nasty fires the likes of which we haven't really seen since 8chan, you'll have to put a foot down in the sand. Arelith is too sandboxed, and caters to too many play-styles, to reach a higher number of players that simply is not necessary or healthy for what Arelith is meant to be.

If you go to the park and start a football game, and you let players join as it goes so that you can have a bigger game and more fun, you don't suddenly switch to rugby when one person playing decides they like it better than football. You don't keep that person in the game, either, because while rugby can also be fun, trying to play rugby in the middle of a football game is going to cause problems in the middle for everyone else.

Arelith does not need thousands of players, unless they're all playing the same game. A server like Arelith dedicated to a narrative RP environment needs exactly as many players as it can find who will work together cooperatively within a narrative framework to all have fun together, without looking for the free pass of "my character would do it, so I'm gonna beat you and have my way at your expense," or "I don't want other players to know this, so it should be FOIG."

I believe that there are a great deal of excellent, talented players on Arelith that would be better served playing other games, and I believe the server as a whole- players and staff alike- need to take a long, hard look at all the ways the OOC inhabitants of its persistent world suffer at the feet of the mentality designed to attain and maintain the highest number of players without being willing to enforce a cooperative framework.

But this has all been pretty abstract so far, so take a look at the thread for the Royal Lodestar Network. It has the opinions of names that are a recognizable, established staple in this community. Look at the tone of those names towards each other. These are not small names, these are names that have had an impact on the server and its setting, probably to deeper extents than I was privy to or aware of.

The current server culture doesn't just permit the conflicting attitude on that thread - it endorses and escalates it.

And IMO, that is a bigger problem than anything else. Having conflicting opinions is fine- it's human nature. The problem is in being unable to step back and say "since this isn't about winning an argument, how can we both be happy with this." And the problem is OOC, IC, and FOIG.

So great. I've identified what is, for me, a problem in Arelith. What's my suggestion to fix it?

A bigger hammer. No, really. That sounds trite, but games like this need enforcement- of environment, of setting, of combat rules, but most importantly, of who is invited to the table and who is not.

Otherwise, the powder-keg is lit. You can only put so many cops and robbers at the same table before there are bullets flying everywhere and catching innocent civilians in the crossfire.

I have nothing against casual players, or deeply invested players who spend 40+ hours a week in the game. I have nothing against people who are competitively skilled at PvP, or those who can write a novella in a few hours. But the game needs to clearly outline, and favor, those types of players it claims it wants in the game, and for the enjoyment of those players, it needs to eliminate those who won't get in line.

This has been my yearly philosophical rant on what makes a good RPG. Your mileage may vary.

[DM Praxis]

I locked this, but only to to make sure I could get an early word in. Will unlock it after my post.

There is a lot of meaningful territory that can be covered from this premise if approached maturely, but frankly we all know that there are a lot of bad-faith nosedives it can (and probably will) take if not addressed with respect. Please keep it constructive for as long as you can, folks.

Unlocked.

[Nitro]

Well, that was rather apocalyptic.

[Zavandar]

so is this a suggestion that players that don't align with the server vision (that you allege needs refinement) should be banned?

[UilliamNebel]

OOC, the server has such a massive culture of mistrust, and zero perspective on the term "dramatic irony," which is truly a shame, because it's one of the most useful dramatic concepts in writing. That "Find Out In Game" is a valid server acronym, a valid answer to multiple lore questions, is a disdainful, dismissive slap in the face to people who come here and love the world they find, and want to be more immersed in its culture and lore, because heaven forbid the other guys learn something we can keep to ourselves until it's convenient for our own personal narrative. ......

.... The current server culture doesn't just permit the conflicting attitude on that thread - it endorses and escalates it.

Empathized with a lot in this post, and agreed with much, particularly the above two passages.

I can't honestly see anyway to fix it however. Its not a 'be the change you want to see' situation. The most I can do is just play and enjoy what I can, detach from elements IC and OOC that are detrimental to that, and make the best of what little that is with the few folk that I have fun with for as long as they play here.

[The Rambling Midget]

This post pretty well sums up why I haven't considered Arelith to be a roleplay server for quite a while, now. However, I don't necessarily consider that to be a bad change.

When it started on its divergent path, some years ago, the community was beginning to dwindle, and opportunities for more than superficial RP were getting harder and harder to come by. Although rules regarding RP adherence had become gradually more lax over the previous years, the following regime change brought with it a stark redirection toward an action/adventure/MMO style environment. The downside of this (for RPers) was that the community was being "diluted" with non-RPers and less RP inclined players. The upside was that it was reinfused with a lot of new players who never knew they wanted to RP, and learned to love it, while also drawing the attention of RP enthusiasts who simply hadn't heard of Arelith. It also continued our shift toward an environment that is far less intimidating to RP neophytes who might have been driven away by the strictures of the past.

The trouble I see is that there IS just so much ingrained tradition here, especially concerning rules and enforcement, which has been carried over from times when the server had a different spirit, and it causes confusion and frustration. The different games metaphor is very apt, but this isn't a case of chess and checkers, it's scrabble and bloody knuckles. There are sometimes insurmountable differences in the preferences and expectations of the players around this table.

None of this is meant to call for a return to the past, but knowing oneself is one of the most important aspects of a happy life. Currently, Arelith does not. Until it does, and learns to embrace what it is, (whatever that may be) it will be at war with itself.

[Stop. Ninja Time]

I agree with Aelryn, that a lot of the problem stems from people having entirely different and conflicting RP purposes. A lot of people have different RP styles (from social to solo, from casual to hardcore, pvp heavy to combat averse, etc) styles which can all play together nicely, as long as no one reaches the extremes. But there has to be patience and understanding that not everyone plays like you; that people are not out to get you and ruin your fun. A lot of people (even many of our 'best') don't have that because they're here for entirely different purposes. Some are here because they want to hang out with friends, some want to make new friends, some want to tell stories, some love chaos, some want a second life, some want a place to grind; etc etc.

I'm not going to comment on if any of these are inherently bad or not; but it can be very difficult to to mesh well together if you want to say Live a Second Life and someone comes in and destroys what you build all the time; or vice versa if you want to tell a story of a Tyranny and people playing for Second Life don't want you to disrupt their RP.

The thing is, that because it's a big sandbox people can go elsewhere if they don't like the RP that's happening there. RP tends to cluster around certain purposes; you can have an entire faction or even settlement that attracts players with similar RP purposes and others which are entirely different. There is always somewhere else; be it another surface settlement or the UD. The sheer amount of toxicity I've seen that has caused people to quit because of RP purpose clashes is staggering; it's baffling how people can be just so mean to each other.

The worst part is that this OOC ends up IC. Many of us don't even use the same account information because we have seen it many times where once people know who we are their characters suddenly change. People that like us suddenly end conflict and people that dislike us their character suddenly starts hating up with little to no new interactions. It becomes sadly obvious that this happens when people figure it out and suddenly their character takes a heel face turn. It has nothing to do with trying to be deceitful so much as trying to remove the OOC biases.

That's not even the worst of it. Some of the other things I've seen on the last 5 or so characters (without giving context) and were often in the rules (not all of these were) were:

- One line PVP
- OOC lying about factions in order to smear other factions
- OOC lying about events/characters to get sympathy/justify their actions and avoid IC consequence/get help IC
- Refusing to RP with a group while acting against them
- Threatening mass PVP if they didn't get their way
- Fixture wars
- Gathering a group of new characters and powergrinding in order to remove "circle jerk rp" {sic}
- Accusing people of being a clique (regardless of the fact half were new players to the server, or people that had never played together before)
- Players holding onto quarters and swapping them between friends over years
- Players bringing old characters back to use their reputation to control things or smear other old characters with new groups (often with the help of a friend's new character)
- Players spending literally dozens of RL hours just smearing someone IC/OOC
- Players hunting someone down and PVPing them until they quit
- Labelling of any RP they found boring as 'social rp', as they 'know it when they see it' {sic}

And that's the shortlist.

A lot of these come from people having protagonist syndrome and that must-win mentality, of course. If you're not pandering to them then you must be Evil. If you disagree then you are Evil. If you say No then you are Evil.

The fact is, this nonsense isn't fun for those on the receiving end. It's perfectly fine to PVP someone, but to PVP them until they quit is just selfish. To go into an area with the attempt to take over in a way you know will upset those already there is also selfish, especially if you don't even RP with them. To prevent new people from playing in the area because it disrupts things your group has built and preventing change through pure force of reputation is also selfish. Just because you and your friends get RP you enjoy doesn't mean you're not responsible for trying to make it fun for those that RP differently too.

So to circle back to the OP's point; I agree. If everyone had the same RP purpose then there would be a lot less grief between players. It would be more of "How do we achieve our goal", rather than "How do I achieve my goal, I don't care about yours". Maybe the answer is that the staff take firmer guidance of what they want from the world; a quicker banhammer for those that don't fit - we don't need thousands of players as the OP said. Of course, it'd be great if we could all just be nicer to eachother.

But I think at the end of the day we need to ask ourselves as we RP together a few questions:
1) If I was on the receiving end, would I be having fun rather than just me?
1b) If I was on the receiving end with their RP style and preference, would I be having fun?
2) Am I making a multi-sided shared narrative, rather than just serving myself/my group?
3) Am I giving everyone a chance to grow and to shine rather than hogging all the attention?

If the answer is no to any of these then I think you need to take a serious look at why you're playing on a RP server rather than just writing a novel or playing an MMO. The fun of playing on a persistent world should be because you're playing with others for whatever your RP purpose is; not because you get to win. You can conflict against people with respect and caring about their fun as much as yours. To borrow from FIRST robotics for a moment:

It's a coopertition, not a competition.

[LovelyLightningWitch]

While I am in almost always in favour of higher RP standards, an issue arises: there are multiple standards.

In a way, a character/immersion/simulation/sensation based rating system may just end up rating a narrative/story based rating system as "low RP" (players are not sufficiently immersed, character logic superseded for sake of storylines) while the opposite also occurring (Not inclusive enough, characters last too long).

From the above alone - and the above being a many decade long field of conflict in the RP community (Good old GNS drama from ye olde internet forums, where simulationionists and narrativists both said the other roleplays for the wrong reasons) - I would warn against desiring to pinpoint one specific playstyle as to be rewarded, and the other punished.

Why is that? Because as it is right now, if you desire to play a Forgotten Realms-based roleplaying server without sexy elven fun times, horror elements or gratious graphic torture, there exists exactly one option on Neverwinter Nights 2, and one option in Neverwinter Nights 1. And that is only focusing on subjects that I feel most on this board may agree with me over. (I could also include the lack of permadeath, lack of DM rulings on scars and disfigurement as bonuses too, but those I found to be controversial on this forum so I'm only adding it on the side).

Like, I am completely aware that my playstyle (Character/simulation focus over story-telling, sticking to the same character for years and preferring Slice of Life over intrigue or other things) is not what Arelith advertises: but here's an issue - my options with my preferences are basically Arelith.

Closest NWN1 alternative has a PvE meta that I simply cannot enjoy. I quite love Arelith's balance where you're not required to keep Haste running 24/7 to be able to handle content in a duo or a trio even well into level 27. On Arelith, you can genuinely EXPERIENCE the act of adventuring - you can lose yourself and be completely in character and don't have to worry about your buffs running out and enemies respawning at your feet. You can take your time, interact with the carefully placed scenery by the devs, go into detail about how your spellcasting works to help bring your party members into the same world you experience, to ensure you all imagine the same sounds, images - perhaps even tacticle senses too.

Arelith, in terms of its rules and mechanics - is both an amazing tool for simulation/sensation focused roleplay, and I feel the only option barring NWN2 (and NWN2 has CD key issues so things there may fizzle out leaving Arelith with genuinely no alternatives).




tl:dr - For those who prefer Forgotten Realms with (sort of) proper religious depiction, alignment depiction, without sexy elven fun times or graphic violence (and without risk of permanent injuries or death) - Arelith is their only option. Other than a particular NWN2 server, you're left with nothing (bar making your own thing - and I have the feeling that with such old games as NWN1 and NWN2, making something from scratch that can support the requirements of a living, breathing, arguably feeling world is impossible. Space Station 13 only manages to allow this to happen due to being Open Source and wanton forking to tailor servers exactly for a specific preference).

Please keep that in mind when proposing narrowing the scope.

Now, I'm not sure if it's people like me (Slice of life, single character, simulation rather than narrative seeking) you are talking about or perhaps the exact opposite is your source of woe - but should we actually be on the same side, for sake of avoiding hypocrisy I'll speak in favour of the Gamist Intriguists or Gamist Conflict players too. They too have only this single FR-based server, although if they don't have issues with perma and related topics, they do have more choices but not much more.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

so is this a suggestion that players that don't align with the server vision (that you allege needs refinement) should be banned?

I don't see where in my post I claimed the server vision needed refinement. In fact, the primary claim I made was, if anything, that the team needs to enforce its vision by ejecting players that won't conform, for the sake of those that do. Regardless of how I interpret what that vision is, or how frequently you claim that interpretation is flawed. Neither of us actually gets to make that call, do we?

The server advertises itself as an RP-driven persistent world. The premise of this with others is, by its nature, cooperative, not combative, even when the characters are at odds. That's not a me thing- that's an every group Role-playing game designed thing since AD&D.

How you make that a my vision versus yours/the staff's thing is beyond my grasp. It comes off as dismissive and belittling, and is more than somewhat indicative of the small, insular, "us vs. them" bubbles that are the prevailing problem in every major culture clash the server has had that I've attempted to outline here.

To more widely address the other responses; I'm not claiming any one group is the problem. I am providing feedback that, without a clearer outline of what the environment is meant to be, which largely comes from enforcement of that environment to a more rigorous standard (depressing work, I know), the culture of mistrust between players can only continue, and that will always provide an undertone of (negative) tension that will overshadow many in-game events that might otherwise be enjoyed by everyone playing in them who are willing to conform to their play environment.

I lean towards wanting a cooperative narrative set in an established world - I also accept that my preferences may not be the actual server vision. The problem is that without firmer guidance from Those On High, I and those with opposed viewpoints have no resolution between us other than to "beat" the other side, or avoid them entirely and Not Interact.

And that is a self-perpetuating problem.

[The GrumpyCat]

Hello.

I'd like to seek some clarity from the OP

I have nothing against casual players, or deeply invested players who spend 40+ hours a week in the game. I have nothing against people who are competitively skilled at PvP, or those who can write a novella in a few hours. But the game needs to clearly outline, and favor, those types of players it claims it wants in the game, and for the enjoyment of those players, it needs to eliminate those who won't get in line.

I wish to try and understand what you mean by this.

Are you saying we should be tougher on rule breakers?
Are you saying we need to be more consistent with the setting? (Which would probably mean remaking vast swaths of the seting)
Are you saying we need to police and reward/enforce rp styles?

I'm tempted to think it's the latter.

Also

How are you suggesting we police/enforce this?
New Rules?
Mechanics?
Observation?

What should the action be if someone does not meet up to the standards?

[Zavandar]

I don't see where in my post I claimed the server vision needed refinement.

maybe we're going by different definitions. the one i am using is:

the improvement or clarification of something by the making of small changes.


and you do say "But the game needs to clearly outline, and favor, those types of players it claims it wants in the game", and "without a clearer outline of what the environment is meant to be, which largely comes from enforcement of that environment to a more rigorous standard (depressing work, I know), the culture of mistrust between players can only continue" thus implying a lack of clarity and the necessity of refinement.

i don't see how i made this a "my vision versus yours/the staff's thing" either, unless that was a general "you" in your post. all i did was ask a question.

[Haroshia]

One of the biggest consistent sources of frustration for me echoes what was posted in the OP. A lot of "conflict" experienced on the server feels forced because it's based on arguments over the fundamental rules of the world. This conflict can be fun and interesting for a time, but if there's no "right" answer provided by the setting it drags on and on perpetually and for me at least begins to break immersion. I think there should be a heavier hand on defining the setting as well as server expectations.

That being said I think there is a false dichotomy being drawn between simulationists and narrativists or between social RPers and competitive PvP RPers. I think the game is big enough to support those styles of play, but only if there's an agreement that those styles will be supported. This might require DM intervention in some cases where they end a conflict of one kind or another (hopefully using established setting mechanics) in the name of preserving fun for one or both players. This is not an inherently bad thing. I haven't been here very long, but I have spent a ton of time trying to figure out what this server wants to be part of the community. I can say, from the perspective of an experienced roleplayer but being relatively new to the server, it is extremely difficult. ​

I will say however I disagree on the point of just sweeping bans, at least not until things are more clearly defined. It is very easy in the absence of outside info to accidentally run afoul of the setting or to accidentally upset other people who want to play in a certain way. I think most players, if given a proper outline, CAN and will adjust their play to fit the settings and expectations of the server. I think most folks who play here WANT to play here, and are doing their best in good faith to be part of the community.

[Seven Sons of Sin]

The "different games" paradigm I think is a really astute observation.

Because I actually think it's 110% correct. It is totally a different game. From mechanics to narrative, it's totally different. The world has changed drastically. Expectations have lowered.

The sheer fact you don't have to roleplay to play here, is a monumental cultural pivot. We've distinguished roleplay from "staying in character." That is - don't be disruptive and talk like its 2021, but you really don't have to contribute really anything at all. You can just enjoy the PvE content with friends.

I don't really agree with that direction. I'll get on my box again that I don't think we need the world to grow to accommodate this influx in players - because not all of these players are really wanting to be actors in this world. Some are wanting to build a garden in their corner and stay there. Some are just wanting to grind dungeons for runes.

And really, the sheer amount of "efficiency" that has occurred from a mechanical level is equally astounding. What is wealth? What is power?

Arelith suffers from its ease-of-access, because mechanical power is so easy to achieve, but narrative power is so difficult. And so people fail to make the correlation - being epic anymore isn't any indication of prowess. Back in the day, holy shit it was. You couldn't approach conflict from a "let's go grind for 7 days and then wtfpwn that Banite." It was more like, "let's do coordinated grinding for 2 months and then try."

Things took more time. And in that time, things changed. Stories changed. There was not an immediacy that there is now.

We've really front-loaded accessibility, but failed to actually meaningfully diversify the "endgame." We've failed to articulate that a level 3 character can be Chancellor of Cordor.

Like can you imagine the Liberated Territories today? It would be worse for the poor toll-keeper today than it was back then.

Some concrete next steps -

1. The Rules Need a Refresh - some of them are really bad and vague.
2. DMs need more power and authority, from a rules refresh
3. Irongron/devs need to make an "Arelith Canon Rulebook" that is enforceable. For example, we've spent dozens of hours refreshing deities, without signaling what that actually means - especially now with the timeline divergence.
4. The onboarding/tutorial needs to de-emphasize XP-gathering, and emphasize player connections and relationships - like the Cordor intro should be less about running around, and more about, "Go seek a guard or city official, and ask them how you can be of aid."

Stuff like that.

Because yeah, it's a different game, and we still haven't killed the old Arelith. That probably should die at some point. We gotta kill the past, otherwise, the frustration of being between two worlds will probably continue to linger.

[Glowing Mushroom]

I think Arelith is going through a bit of an identity crisis.

About a year and a half ago when I first got back, the server was not only mechanically different, but culture-wise it was dramatically different. I think there's a level of dissonance occurring between what some of the goals are and what is actually happening.

For example, we will see forums posts speaking on negativity in the community, which is met with uplifting and hopeful messages from the team about believing in the best of people and focusing on creating RP.

But then in the same week we have a giant bombshell DM Announcement denouncing OOC orchestration of elections and excessive PvP with little to no RP.

So clearly there are ideals on what side, but a harsher reality on the other. Because things like excessive PvP with little to no RP do exist, and it is a problem, and it does make people quit. Just like excessive OOC communications - Such as groups of people in voice chat during RP or PvP, which in my opinion, is only ever going to cause problems and disconnect.

If I were to recommend Arelith to someone a year and a half ago, I'd say it is a heavy RP server where you should always stay in character.

If I were to recommend Arelith to someone today, it'd say it is a little league MMO with RPG elements.

We have an immensely convoluted and imbalanced tiered crafting system that works just like crafting-up systems in MMOs. We have an enormous official Discord with literally dozens upon dozens of unofficial ones, and now six new official ones. We have some players who are astounding talented RPers who help to create and evolve narratives and RP throughout the server. We have some players who essentially inject their Discord personalities into a character, grind to level 30, min/max the best powerbuilds, and spend millions of gold on the best gear, all to PvP in the end with little to no RP. So much that the DMs have had to make announcements regarding it and actually step in as settlement NPC leaders to try and stop it. Then we have the rest of the majority of the players in-between who casually RP, craft, dungeon, and so forth, and you don't really have to contribute or stay in character or add much of any depth to your character or what you're doing at all.

To call Arelith a heavy RP server is categorically incorrect right now. It didn't used to be that way, but it sure is now. It is trying to be an MMO and there seems to be a conflict of interest and recognition towards what the server vision and direction is, and what is actually going on. Arelith doesn't seem to know what it wants to be anymore.

Are we supposed to try and affect, change, or otherwise influence the setting? Or are we supposed to live around it as a static playground and deal with the rest? It all seems incredibly unclear, and there are issues in between. What is Arelith trying to be?

I love RPing on Arelith, I love the world and the lore, I love the players and the staff, and I would not be here typing all of this out if I didn't believe in all of that. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it is evident that there are certainly some cultural issues that are either not being recognized, or in a worst case scenario, are being deliberately ignored.

[Archnon]

I have a lot of feelings about this thread that I don't fully understand. However, i will say this and this alone.

As a parent of three wonderful children all under the age of 8, I can attest that you can play many different games, football, rugby, tea party, laser space combat, what have you, all at the very same time on one simple condition. That no one cares if they win or lose! In fact, there is no winning or losing. There is just the game in whatever delightful form it has morphed into. And the thing is, if one kid is like, "I win at Rugby", the other kids are like "great job, have some tea but watch out for that laser"

[ZeroPointEnergy]

I just had a bunch of people chip in to help gear my character.
I cooperate with my group to help gear them, too.
We share a lot, have fun, and play with sailing mechanics that would not work if we didn't cooperate.

This group? Not a secret discord clique I met long ago in a smoky room in my college dorm. I met them through in-character means.

It's hard to remember that it's a massive server and someone, somewhere, maybe having some really bad RP and a totally different experience from mine.

I'm also a bit picky with who I hang out with and if it's not really fun, I usually move on with that same character or play with a new concept. Sometimes the RP just doesn't need my involvement and I don't fit in.

Arelith does not provide this outside of small, insular groups, and that's because, truthfully, IMO it is too big for the size of the hammer it's willing to swing. Because someone can walk up to you, kill you for no discernible reason you know after a few lines of RP, and then fall back on the "FOIG, but it was totally IC and it's what my character would have done" as a valid defense, these insular groups are formed OOC rather than IC.

I never actually got in much PvP and I never really been blindsided by something the few times I did. I've seen people get ensnared into something and burn out but it's primarily because, whether they realize it or not, they don't know when to back away and not have the last word.

Your mileage on the game seems to be dictated by the people you hang out with.

[Aelryn Bloodmoon]

I don't see where in my post I claimed the server vision needed refinement.

maybe we're going by different definitions. the one i am using is:

the improvement or clarification of something by the making of small changes.


and you do say "But the game needs to clearly outline, and favor, those types of players it claims it wants in the game", and "without a clearer outline of what the environment is meant to be, which largely comes from enforcement of that environment to a more rigorous standard (depressing work, I know), the culture of mistrust between players can only continue" thus implying a lack of clarity and the necessity of refinement.

i don't see how i made this a "my vision versus yours/the staff's thing" either, unless that was a general "you" in your post. all i did was ask a question.

I apologize for my mistake- in this case I am guilty of my own highlighted problem, in that over the years when we've discussed topics I've tended to regard you as antagonistic to my viewpoints, and I allowed that to color my perception of your question. Yes, I'm in favor of banning people that want to eat Cinnamon Toast Crunch if/when/after the server says it wants to serve Cheerios and their response is to throw Cinnamon Toast Crunch in all the milk.

I wish to try and understand what you mean by this.

Are you saying we should be tougher on rule breakers? - Yes, but specifically the people who hedge their rule-breaking around the argument 'but the rules say' while completely disregarding the atmosphere and play experience of those around them. While this is a subjective ruling, claiming this type of enforcement is subject to 'favoritism' is absolutely part of the problem in my viewpoint; if you can't/don't trust the DM's you're playing with, at some point when it's the DM's job to step in and guide the story, someone is going to be upset, and probably more than just the people who don't trust them to be impartial, as they tend to spread their mentality outward like ripples in a pond simply by existing, to say nothing of those that intentionally launch bad PR campaigns when they don't get their way. These are players that, while potentially able to be reformed, enter the game with no concerns for their play environment or the social contract their peers are participating in.

Are you saying we need to be more consistent with the setting? (Which would probably mean remaking vast swaths of the seting)
Not really, although I do think there could be some mechanical enforcement of the setting without retconning things. I'm reluctant to give any actual examples for fear of making anyone inadvertently feel targeted, but as a tentative example, if I was playing a mage and someone claimed their mage drew magical power from their pet rock rather than their weave, IC I can have a field day with that, but if they're claiming it OOC and I destroy their pet rock, do they lose their magic? Does the character have an epiphany that the Weave is real? Do they psychologically lose their ability to cast magic? Should I have to think this hard about an established lore fact and worry about ruining something that runs completely contrary to the setting for someone else?

Are you saying we need to police and reward/enforce rp styles? Ironically, not so much. I'd refer you back to your first question, which is of much more importance. I'm not concerned whether someone RP's with asterisks or brackets or quotation marks. I'm concerned with whether or not their RP style unintentionally or actively flouts the preferred style of the server, because it's reasonable that people agreeing to play on the same server together should be actively working within the same strictures as each other. There's nothing wrong with running ten dungeons in a session or spending six hours sitting in a room talking for a session. There is something wrong if ten players set out to do thing X for RP at time Y, and three other players decide that their thing Z must happen at that time regardless of what the other ten players conceptualized as fun. If one player's fun can only happen at the expense of another player's fun, that first player's RP is a problem. Unintentional problems can be addressed with guidance. Intentional behavior deserves a hammer.

I'm tempted to think it's the latter.

Also

How are you suggesting we police/enforce this?
New Rules?
Mechanics?
Observation?

Subjectivity. That's a word that inspires fear and revulsion, and cries of nasty things like "favoritism," but it's an absolute necessity, IMO, in a play environment this size with this many players. I believe the Golden Rules encompass the vast majority of what is necessary for the environment. I feel an unreasonable fear of collateral player loss due to favoritism keeps the Golden Rules spirit from being enforced, and the spirit of the rules (otherwise known in many gaming circles as "Rules as Intended") can only ever be enforced subjectively.

The team cannot be afraid to enforce its vision by removing players that are demonstrably actively toxic in their subjective opinion. I would dare go so far as to say it is the teams' Divine Right to set all subjective standards for the game world, and those who don't agree with that standard have the right to seek other outlets. While this comes off as harsh to those who don't conform, not doing this is forcing the people who came to play chess watch while the people playing bloody knuckles bleed all over their chessboard. (I really liked TRM's analogy.)

What should the action be if someone does not meet up to the standards?

Again, subjectivity. I believe where Arelith hamstrings itself is in trying to create a set of one-size-fits-all standards for enforcement that cannot possibly hope to work, for the sake of presenting them to its player population to ameliorate the fear of loss of player numbers over things like 'favoritism.' The DM's and the Team should favor playstyles and players that conform to and enable their narrative world. In my experience, favoritism is often a claim levied by those who don't fit into that narrative in an attempt to shoehorn their way into working through OOC politics.

Unnecessary contact with the kicker doesn't care about your reasons, it cares about the kicker being healthy enough to kick for the next punt. I think Arelith would benefit from the same mentality about rules when it comes to players who show a disregard for the enjoyment of others.

But, for these things to be applicable, I find myself inclined to agree with TRM, and Zavander's take on my sentiment. Arelith must be willing to draw clear lines in the sand for what it is and what it isn't, and it needs to not be afraid of doing so firmly for fear of losing player population. While saying Arelith has thousands of active players is awesome, I think it'd be twice as amazing to say Arelith has a few hundred or even only a hundred players that are all playing the same game with the same goal. I think that goal should be having fun together, rather than having fun trying to beat others, but what I'm really imploring for is that the actual goal be clearly illustrated, and stuck to.

Arelith is no longer mired in the sticky pool of "we're almost out of players, we have to preserve every last one we have." It's in a new pit of quicksand - we have too many players that want too many different things, and they're inevitably bound to be unhappy trying to climb their way over each other to get out of the quicksand.

Some concrete next steps -

1. The Rules Need a Refresh - some of them are really bad and vague.
2. DMs need more power and authority, from a rules refresh
3. Irongron/devs need to make an "Arelith Canon Rulebook" that is enforceable. For example, we've spent dozens of hours refreshing deities, without signaling what that actually means - especially now with the timeline divergence.
4. The onboarding/tutorial needs to de-emphasize XP-gathering, and emphasize player connections and relationships - like the Cordor intro should be less about running around, and more about, "Go seek a guard or city official, and ask them how you can be of aid."

Stuff like that.

Because yeah, it's a different game, and we still haven't killed the old Arelith. That probably should die at some point. We gotta kill the past, otherwise, the frustration of being between two worlds will probably continue to linger.

I find myself thinking that 2 and 3 from Seven's points are especially relevant and far more eloquent than I could ever be.

[Sundial]

I'm a pretty longtime player too, and when I returned to the server last year, it was undoubtedly a Brave New World. One thing that hasn't changed: it's still easy to discard the parts of (players on?) the server you don't care for.

There's some people who go out to eat at a restaurant and something is always wrong. They've frontloaded themselves with expectations, and when they encounter the smallest slight, it casts dispersions on the whole experience.

Live in blissful ignorance. Log in, do cool stuff, log out.

[Drowboy]

Gonna put this in two parts, hopefully small.

So, one: impermanence.
Maybe it's UD specific, but there's some kind of revolving door situation, where it feels sometimes like there's a dozen or so people who you see for a long time (a lot of these played by, well, neets, it seems like. Not to be rude.) And then there's people you see for the time it takes them to grind up, get geared, and lose a couple pvps or hit the exact level+wealth combo they need to roll- and attempt to get to their actual character.

Weirdly, I feel like the problem there has two components as well. The above revolving door syndrome brought about by quick levels and a permissive retirement system with power, not just cosmetics, see minotaur, locked behind. And the second, for this half topic, mechanical insecurity.

The latter was fixed, recently, with the free relevels (and by god do I think just about everyone would be glad if that remained in some form, forever)- more or less. But for a couple of years now, a rough timeframe half the posts in here are touching on, classes have been liable to end up on a chopping block at a moment's notice, as the meta swings wildly back and forth to try and find a place of stability in an environment where you can suddenly take three classes that boost you severely rather than two and not worry about the people who went utility over sheer power. So stuff gets nerfed and characters disappear over night. Impermanence. Eventually, and I imagine with a lot of dev burnout, we'll reach a rough equilibrium again but probably not for a while.

Issue two, imo: Arelith needs competition.
Arelith got a wild head start with EE- a bunch of interviews that while cool, read as a sort of marketing campaign, it's one of two servers console players can join, it was first on the conversion list to the new game, and it's the biggest one and no one wants to leave to play some other server with ten people on it.

Except they should. Hear me out. Trying to be everything for everyone just muddies your waters. The "whole-Snuggybear one thing" issue. Worse, trying to contort the server into shapes that it isn't, playerside, only leads to frustration. That's what half the feedback forum is these days. Hell, that's part of what this thread is and will turn out to be.

Players are mismatched here, wanting a different experience that, maybe, other servers would provide. There's some decent ones! Every time I see a thread that's like "this server should actually be lower power level with rougher respawn penalties" it's like, no, but that server exists and theres 5 people on it at peak time because everyone wants to be where there's a giant lag party on surface.

I have no idea how to fix that, and frankly it's nothing anyone can fix but individual players having the self awareness of when it's time to move on or find a better fit. But I do think this muddying isn't good for the server overall, and I've thought for a while that NWN being the two monoliths of Arelith and Ravenloft haven't been good, sorry, for the game's community as a whole.

Go out and try other servers! I promise some of them are cool, and even if you end up back here the experience will help.

[The GrumpyCat]

Issue two, imo: Arelith needs competition.
Arelith got a wild head start with EE- a bunch of interviews that while cool, read as a sort of marketing campaign, it's one of two servers console players can join, it was first on the conversion list to the new game, and it's the biggest one and no one wants to leave to play some other server with ten people on it.

Except they should. Hear me out. Trying to be everything for everyone just muddies your waters. The "whole-Snuggybear one thing" issue. Worse, trying to contort the server into shapes that it isn't, playerside, only leads to frustration. That's what half the feedback forum is these days. Hell, that's part of what this thread is and will turn out to be.

Players are mismatched here, wanting a different experience that, maybe, other servers would provide. There's some decent ones! Every time I see a thread that's like "this server should actually be lower power level with rougher respawn penalties" it's like, no, but that server exists and theres 5 people on it at peak time because everyone wants to be where there's a giant lag party on surface.

I have no idea how to fix that, and frankly it's nothing anyone can fix but individual players having the self awareness of when it's time to move on or find a better fit. But I do think this muddying isn't good for the server overall, and I've thought for a while that NWN being the two monoliths of Arelith and Ravenloft haven't been good, sorry, for the game's community as a whole.

Go out and try other servers! I promise some of them are cool, and even if you end up back here the experience will help.

Yes.

I cannot agree with this more. This is a fantastic point to keep in mind. I LOVE it.

[-XXX-]

I think that this is somewhat a multilayered problem.

1. Larger player base - this is mostly a GOOD thing. It helps the server thrive.

1a. Diversity of playstyles
Not all of the playstyles will click and work together. However, I don't think that any one of them should be singled out as undesirable. Whether playstyle diversity becomes a problem or not hinges on the attitude. Making an effort to identify and accomodate the playstyle of the players that we are interacting with is much more desirable than assuming the "you don't meet my standards so this might not be the place for you and it'd be best if you hit the road ASAP because mah immersion" attitude.

1b. The death of player driven plots
Logically, the ability of individual players (or factions) to influence the bigger picture decreases as the number of active players increases. It's much harder to do "big things" before getting shut down by other players (both IC and OOC) nowdays.
IMO the biggest downside resulting from this is the absence of narrative substance.
Whereas before the server-wide storytelling hinged on player-driven plots, which was greatly endorsed, with the larger player base it no longer seems viable (ironically) and it might be needed for DM-driven plots to assume this role instead.


2. Game aspect imbalance - I see this having a stifling effect on RP, especially with a larger playerbase

2a. Mechanical cap.
There is only so much that can be achieved through mechanics.
PvP is irrelevant or straight up self-destructive (yes, PvP seems to be the source of a lot of OOC drama even despite that, but that's more caused by players being butthurt rather than suffering any tangible losses).
There's no merit in PvE as a result of faster leveling and character build power creep.
Wealth is subject to tremendous inflation (again as a result of faster leveling and character build power creep) and there is very little that it can actually buy.

2b. Popularity contest syndrome.
As opposed to actual game mechanics, the social aspect of the game seems to be without limitations (T-rating limitations aside). Every action and every story seems to be driven by social connections and requires both IC and OOC validation to even matter. In essence, a larger group of poor low level characters can exert much greater influence than a couple of max lvl optimized characters with fabulous wealth to their name.
Popularity has become the ultimate currency IG (no wonder that there is so many merry "look at me I'm oh so nice and friendly" characters running around), but even that can get you only so far. With such a large player base stretched across multiple time zones this currency is much more likely to be used to thwart others rather than drive a story. Throw in borderline unpolicable instances of OOC colusion facilitated by Discord and similar channels and it might become apparent why this can actually be a problem.



IMHO what the server seems to be desperately missing right now are DM-driven large scale plots and objective goals leading to recognizable accolades.
Most of us came here to play D&D - live an adventure, get a medal. Instead we get the ...prom queen ballot?

[Ork]

IMHO what the server seems to be desperately missing right now are DM-driven large scale plots and objective goals leading to recognizable accolades.
Most of us came here to play D&D - live an adventure, get a medal. Instead we get the ...prom queen ballot?

Recognize that this hasn't been Arelith in its 15+ year operation.

[Kessarin]

OP is right on the money.

IMO, Arelith has become an MMO with some RP elements. And if that's what it's meant to be, then so be it! But advertising itself as...

"An oasis of roleplay and classic Dungeons and Dragons...

Play in a truly persistent world that grows and evolves with or without you. Create the story you’ve always wanted along side hundreds of other players who are always in character." (Emphasis mine.)

...is simply no longer true.

[Babylon System is the Vampire]

I agree with much of what the OP wrote, but there is one key difference. I am more of a carrot then a stick guy. I would rather see players adhering to the server vision, whatever that may be, getting benefits as a result. Not punishments for those who do not. My thinking behind this is that anyone and everyone can eventually get better.

Some other good points that stood out to me through out this thread.

- I do wish the vision of the server had a better definition. The vagueness of it all and what seems like a "hands off approach from the dms unless absolutely necessary" by design leads to not only a sense that its every man for himself but that roving ooc gangs are the true authority of the server. This pushes us toward ooc cliques, which eventually expands to discord, and yeah... We see where that got us. I realize that there is an effort to quell that aspect of the game, but its important to look at the root cause.

- I too would be hard pressed to advertise this server to anyone as a role play server. Its still plenty of fun or I wouldn't play here and I certainly wouldn't get into arguments about it, but it feels closer to WoW then D&D or even a traditional NwN roleplay server. You just got to take it for what it is, because like I said there is still plenty of fun to be had. Get out and sail my dudes.

- While the point about "If you don't like arelith there are options" is very true, it ignores two potential perspectives. One, with the server vision so poorly defined, its easy to think that the server wants to be the way you think it should be, it just hasn't found its way yet. And two, you can think Arelith is great and still see room for improvement. I think people not understanding this point is the biggest threat to the community at large, because eventually if folks keep getting beaten down for even suggesting things could be different they will take your advice and leave. And while it will be a slow train coming, eventually all that will be left are the loudest voices capable of delivering written word thrashings. And honestly, this is not some sort of future prediction, its already starting to happen.

And one point I wanted to make myself.

- As bad as it may seem right now thanks to the forums and the measures taken on discord, none of the bad is really as prominent as it is being made out to be. Yes, there are people that pvp like its their form of heroin. Yes there people who can't tell the difference between who they are and the character they are playing. Yes there are people that feel like any disruption to their precious social rp is a tragedy worthy of a lynching. Yes there are ooc cliques that will try to hog all the cool properties and back each other up in pvp even across characters where it blatantly makes no sense. But as someone who rarely reveals who they are oocly, I can tell you that over 10 or so characters across 4 years I have played with a large percentage of everyone at some point or another. And not only do more then half the server give off a go with the flow sort of vibe, even those who fall into the above categories are not necessarily bad people at their core, and I doubt I would hit two hands worth of fingers counting the people I think truly suck as human beings. And if we can all keep that in mind, we just might have a good strong community going forward even if we don't always agree.

[-XXX-]

Recognize that this hasn't been Arelith in its 15+ year operation.

Why focus on what has been when we should be concerned with what could be?